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Thread: Screw Tanking

  1. #81
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    Just a suggestion...I think most of the longer term posters here have a good feel for the discussion "styles" of most. If one doesn't like the tone or tenor of responses, say so in one reply and then stop further discussion with the poster (at least in that thread)...rather than let it degenerate into what seems to be an exercise in one upmanship happening a bit frequently lately. Testosterone levels alert! The mods do a good job and cant police everything...posters need to do it themselves sometimes. Unsolicited disparaging opinions of other posters not in a discussion should really not be tolerated by the mods.

    (more than a/1 suggestion!)

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  3. #82
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    I am glad there is no formula for HEART, cause clearly people are not seeing everyone improving. It's because there loving playing together. Some of the games have looked extremely rough for the first half, then they get talked too, come in the 3rd start to catch rhythm, and pull it out. Were young and learning to win.

    2pat is clearly the other option missing from the JV Amir rotation. We need the 3 to get us there, and he doesn't need to be a superstar, even though it would be nice, as long as he is solid. If we play D it gives us a chance, and there's no telling who rises to the occasion in the playoffs, nobody has a formula for that.

    If we keep winning K Lowery might actually sacrifice for winning instead of big money. But we will have to pay him around DD's(8-9 mil) contract to keep I think.

    Either way there are always guys available, and a combination of guys playing one position can defiantly work. PG is also going to be very deep this year in the draft if everyone expected comes out. We might be able to snatch Ennis up around 12-14, if we cant trade for Wiggs.

    Believe in MU he might get us the prize!!!!!!

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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Ceiling in today's NBA is determined by franchise talent, except in rare cases like the 2004 Pistons.

    As for predicting individual ceilings, Val is the only player who might be a franchise talent.

    Demar doesn't have the handles or creativity to be a lead wing on a championship squad.

    Ross is 3 and D and dunk guy, a great role player.

    Amir is a great role player.

    Lowry could be an all-star but is also playing for a contract.

    Come playoff time, how is this motley crew going to win four playoff rounds?

    I like our guys and respect their tenacity but there's a reason Grantland just put us in the "Fool's Gold Diggers" category.
    Ross still has room to grow.

  5. #84
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    Quote huskies2raps wrote: View Post
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...o-to-the-wheel

    Ever since reading Zach Lowe's article that goes over "The Wheel" I've been convinced that this would be the best way to eliminate rewarding teams for losing. Yes, the counter arguments of "If Milwaukee had the 1st pick next year and LA the next, the college player would wait an extra year etc." but at the end of the day, this method would give teams a fair shot at top level talent every few years and eliminate the need to reward bad teams.

    We will see what Silver has in store for the NBA's next generation, but from what I hear he is very much an "outside the box" type thinker. Imagine going into every NBA season with teams having ZERO incentive to losing......
    I've always liked, in basic principle, the idea of giving all non-playoff teams an equal shot. Hte problem is the first 3-4 teams that miss the playoffs may not actually be that bad and it may reward them too much. Some tiered system maybe? Maybe the bottom 10 teams all get a fair shot at the top, and the remaining non-playoff teams get a lesser chance, like a 1/4 of the other 10? I don't know. In the end I think the draft will stay as is.

    The problem with the wheel is it's really hard on small markets. Imagine you invest in trying to win, end up among the worst in the league anyway, and your next top 5 pick isn't for a few years. By then you could be bankrupt and have to move, having not been able to maintain/generate fan support. That's also not good for the league. I mean, look at Milly. They clearly didn't plan to tank, since their owner is anti-tank, and now suck hard, and are trying to get investors for a new arena. The only selling point to those investors right now is that they can get a star in the next draft. If they had to wait 5 years, the team is dead...for sure.

  6. #85
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I've always liked, in basic principle, the idea of giving all non-playoff teams an equal shot. Hte problem is the first 3-4 teams that miss the playoffs may not actually be that bad and it may reward them too much. Some tiered system maybe? Maybe the bottom 10 teams all get a fair shot at the top, and the remaining non-playoff teams get a lesser chance, like a 1/4 of the other 10? I don't know. In the end I think the draft will stay as is.

    The problem with the wheel is it's really hard on small markets. Imagine you invest in trying to win, end up among the worst in the league anyway, and your next top 5 pick isn't for a few years. By then you could be bankrupt and have to move, having not been able to maintain/generate fan support. That's also not good for the league. I mean, look at Milly. They clearly didn't plan to tank, since their owner is anti-tank, and now suck hard, and are trying to get investors for a new arena. The only selling point to those investors right now is that they can get a star in the next draft. If they had to wait 5 years, the team is dead...for sure.
    Agreed, nothing should change because there is no perfect system but this might be as good as it gets. The tiered system you mentioned (top 10 equal odds) would probably create more tanking in the 8-13 range as no one would want to finish 11,12, 13 and miss out.

    They'll talk about ideas but in the end nothing will change.

  7. #86
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Agreed, nothing should change because there is no perfect system but this might be as good as it gets. The tiered system you mentioned (top 10 equal odds) would probably create more tanking in the 8-13 range as no one would want to finish 11,12, 13 and miss out.

    They'll talk about ideas but in the end nothing will change.
    Yeah, I don't think it's a great idea. But I don't know....It's so hard to think of a good change. Maybe just balance out the lottery balls a bit better with the current system. Maybe make every spot open to every team (instead of the 3 top spots, and 3 spots behind your finishing position).

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    Quote Dr. James Naismith wrote: View Post
    I think I'm might just go ahead and censor the word "tank" so whenever anyone types it here on the forums it just shows as "****". Its pretty evident that Masai and the Raptors aren't even thinking of it. Especially now.
    I've though I still have a **** in my avatar I would LOVE it if you censured it!
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Looks like I've joined the thread a bit late here but I'll add my 2 cents.

    I've been conflicted about cheering for our team. I am happy that we are playing well compared to the last 4-5 years. I'm excited about making the playoffs and going to a playoff game.. it's been years and the experience/atmosphere is phenomenal. But I can't help but feel sorry for Masai for being in a difficult position of a team that is possibly overachieving at the worst possible time.. much like we experienced a 7-8 years ago with a different GM. I mean, unless you really believed that Garbajosa had such a positive effect on that team, the reality is that was not a proper 47-win team. That's not to say BC made all the right moves, but he seemed to believe in those 47 wins and that resulted in 2-3 years of believing in it, and then a few more years of trying to get back when it was never really there.

    I don't think I have to point out that the Eastern Conference is even more of a joke than it has ever been. If past 5-8 years are any indication, a 0.500 record normally nets you 2nd in the Atlantic or as low as 4th, and certainly not a top 3-4 record in the East.

    I don't think Masai will fall into the same trap as BC, but it still "feels" like a wasted opportunity.

    I'm not as creative when it comes to thinking up possible trades (nor do I see a point in doing it), but I don't see a lot of ways to improve the team given that we are fairly cash-strapped for another season after this, plus with no high picks coming up, we have to kind of rely on Ross and JV to get better. But I don't see how these two guys will improve to the point that we become contenders. Either way, I can imagine Masai walking down the halls and having people giving him high-fives and saying "First place, baby!" and smiling and telling him what a great job he's doing and meanwhile in his heart he's in complete turmoil. So while we have a great chance to duplicate Atlanta's past recent success, I feel that Masai (and Leiweke) were aiming a bit higher.

    And that's really where my worries and my conflict on the season are stemmed from. I have a good friend of mine who has been a lifetime Bulls fan, and he always has some sort of complaint about his team. And I'm just like "You know what.. shut up. You had Michael Jordan. That is all.". I personally am fine with Atlanta's last 5 years. I just think that there was an opportunity this season to become more than that and we potentially missed out on it.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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  11. #89
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Looks like I've joined the thread a bit late here but I'll add my 2 cents.

    I've been conflicted about cheering for our team. I am happy that we are playing well compared to the last 4-5 years. I'm excited about making the playoffs and going to a playoff game.. it's been years and the experience/atmosphere is phenomenal. But I can't help but feel sorry for Masai for being in a difficult position of a team that is possibly overachieving at the worst possible time.. much like we experienced a 7-8 years ago with a different GM. I mean, unless you really believed that Garbajosa had such a positive effect on that team, the reality is that was not a proper 47-win team. That's not to say BC made all the right moves, but he seemed to believe in those 47 wins and that resulted in 2-3 years of believing in it, and then a few more years of trying to get back when it was never really there.

    I don't think I have to point out that the Eastern Conference is even more of a joke than it has ever been. If past 5-8 years are any indication, a 0.500 record normally nets you 2nd in the Atlantic or as low as 4th, and certainly not a top 3-4 record in the East.

    I don't think Masai will fall into the same trap as BC, but it still "feels" like a wasted opportunity.

    I'm not as creative when it comes to thinking up possible trades (nor do I see a point in doing it), but I don't see a lot of ways to improve the team given that we are fairly cash-strapped for another season after this, plus with no high picks coming up, we have to kind of rely on Ross and JV to get better. But I don't see how these two guys will improve to the point that we become contenders. Either way, I can imagine Masai walking down the halls and having people giving him high-fives and saying "First place, baby!" and smiling and telling him what a great job he's doing and meanwhile in his heart he's in complete turmoil. So while we have a great chance to duplicate Atlanta's past recent success, I feel that Masai (and Leiweke) were aiming a bit higher.

    And that's really where my worries and my conflict on the season are stemmed from. I have a good friend of mine who has been a lifetime Bulls fan, and he always has some sort of complaint about his team. And I'm just like "You know what.. shut up. You had Michael Jordan. That is all.". I personally am fine with Atlanta's last 5 years. I just think that there was an opportunity this season to become more than that and we potentially missed out on it.
    There is a missed opportunity in that drafting a franchise-changing player in 2014 and moving forward by building around him would have been both fantastic and a clear path into the future. Totally agreed that that would have been nice!

    At the same time, I'm not worried about Ujiri's options moving forward. Somebody correct me if this is off, but HoopsHype has the Raps current salary commitments at $70 mil this year, $41 mil next year, and $13 mil the year after. This team isn't tied into any Joe Johnson/Rudy gay sized salaries, or any long-term salaries. The worst guy on the books at this point is Fields, and there's enough flexibility around him that he's not much of an issue at the moment.

    Also, while it's true that it looks like the Raps won't be drafting top 10, they have all their own picks plus an extra 2nd rounder this year and an extra first rounder in 2016. They're going to have to draft really efficiently mid-late round, like the Pacers or Spurs, but they're going to have picks.

    And I've said this a few times, so pardon the repetition, but Ross and JV are nowhere near their ceilings, DD and Amir are still developing, and hopefully Lowry is just hitting his peak (if he stays). If Lowry goes, that's going to change the make-up of the team considerably. If Ujiri manages to "win" that transaction (whatever it turns into), it'll be another step forward.

    In summary - I also would have loved to see the Raps get a top 6 pick in this draft, but I've got plenty of hope with Ujiri steering this roster, and it is worth something to be watching far better basketball in the meantime.

    All that is unrelated, as far as I'm concerned, to how bad the East is. The only goal is championships, weather 2/3 of the east sucks or not. I'm only concerned about being able to beat the top 4 or 5 teams in the league.

  12. #90
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I think Hoopshype is showing actual salary versus the cap-hit. Basketball-Reference seems to have the cap hit, but then it wasn't showing the team options properly.

    This site appears to have it right (although I hate the formatting because I don't have a wide-screen monitor):
    http://storytellerscontracts.info/?page_id=1696

    So it appears we will have $38M committed salaries not including Amir Johnson's $7M and I would assume we plan to exercise Tyler Hansbrough's $3.3M as well. This leaves us at $49.2M without a single point guard on the roster. So we've got about $11.8M to essentially bring everyone important back, which means as mentioned, no real way to improve the roster other than player development and... drafting like the Spurs.
    Last edited by ebrian; Fri Jan 10th, 2014 at 11:28 AM.
    your pal,
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  14. #91
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    Hoopshype is awful. Basketball-reference is decent. Shamsports is the best, although it doesn't update very often, so it is not up to date. I keep my own salary figures based on Shamsports.

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  16. #92
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Hoopshype is awful. Basketball-reference is decent. Shamsports is the best, although it doesn't update very often, so it is not up to date. I keep my own salary figures based on Shamsports.
    Shamsports is my go to site for salary information as well.

  17. #93
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    Quote huskies2raps wrote: View Post
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...o-to-the-wheel

    Ever since reading Zach Lowe's article that goes over "The Wheel" I've been convinced that this would be the best way to eliminate rewarding teams for losing. Yes, the counter arguments of "If Milwaukee had the 1st pick next year and LA the next, the college player would wait an extra year etc." but at the end of the day, this method would give teams a fair shot at top level talent every few years and eliminate the need to reward bad teams.

    We will see what Silver has in store for the NBA's next generation, but from what I hear he is very much an "outside the box" type thinker. Imagine going into every NBA season with teams having ZERO incentive to losing......
    No it wouldn't, for the exact same reason you just stated. This would be completely ridiculous and extremely easy to take advantage of. I thought you were going to refute the statement but you just stated it.

    Also, lets say a team like Miami has a "big three" championship team and is awarded the 1st pick. Is it fair that they can draft a wiggins/Exum/smart/embiid to pair with bosh James and wade? Hell no.

    I think we should just leave things the way they are. The lose now approach taken by many can actually be a pretty good strategy. I remember not too long ago, Atlanta had 11 wins and was the laughingstock of the league. Now they're able to be consistent in playoff talks in the east.

    Indiana, iirc, was a team that a couple of years ago I counted as a win for the raptors on the calendar. Now they've built a solid championship contender but had to endure a couple of years of losing. Managers need to do things right. Look at Cleveland, 2 top 5 picks in 2011, #4 in 2012 and the 1st overall in 2013. They lost a lot. And it looks like they'll continue to do so. Because their management is terrible.

    The current way is one of the fairest ways to do it. If we left it up to the players and their agents, 5/6 teams would be incredibly strong and the rest would dwindle. Teams need to be rewarded, in a sense, for being bad. They're missing out on extra revenue from the playoffs, extra exposure, lack of free agent desire, etc.

    Why shouldn't the worst team get the best player? They're surely the ones who need him the most. People are crying now because people are taking advantage of the system and "losing on purpose". Boo hoo. People are always going to exploit the systems they're given, because people are a-holes and when you're a manager of a team like Milwaukee who can't attract free agents as easily as NY, and depends on playoff revenue to actually breathe financially, you're paid big bucks to win. That's the way they've found to do so, and kudos to them. It has to be deftly executed though.


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  18. #94
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Looks like I've joined the thread a bit late here but I'll add my 2 cents.

    I've been conflicted about cheering for our team. I am happy that we are playing well compared to the last 4-5 years. I'm excited about making the playoffs and going to a playoff game.. it's been years and the experience/atmosphere is phenomenal. But I can't help but feel sorry for Masai for being in a difficult position of a team that is possibly overachieving at the worst possible time.. much like we experienced a 7-8 years ago with a different GM. I mean, unless you really believed that Garbajosa had such a positive effect on that team, the reality is that was not a proper 47-win team. That's not to say BC made all the right moves, but he seemed to believe in those 47 wins and that resulted in 2-3 years of believing in it, and then a few more years of trying to get back when it was never really there.

    I don't think I have to point out that the Eastern Conference is even more of a joke than it has ever been. If past 5-8 years are any indication, a 0.500 record normally nets you 2nd in the Atlantic or as low as 4th, and certainly not a top 3-4 record in the East.

    I don't think Masai will fall into the same trap as BC, but it still "feels" like a wasted opportunity.

    I'm not as creative when it comes to thinking up possible trades (nor do I see a point in doing it), but I don't see a lot of ways to improve the team given that we are fairly cash-strapped for another season after this, plus with no high picks coming up, we have to kind of rely on Ross and JV to get better. But I don't see how these two guys will improve to the point that we become contenders. Either way, I can imagine Masai walking down the halls and having people giving him high-fives and saying "First place, baby!" and smiling and telling him what a great job he's doing and meanwhile in his heart he's in complete turmoil. So while we have a great chance to duplicate Atlanta's past recent success, I feel that Masai (and Leiweke) were aiming a bit higher.

    And that's really where my worries and my conflict on the season are stemmed from. I have a good friend of mine who has been a lifetime Bulls fan, and he always has some sort of complaint about his team. And I'm just like "You know what.. shut up. You had Michael Jordan. That is all.". I personally am fine with Atlanta's last 5 years. I just think that there was an opportunity this season to become more than that and we potentially missed out on it.
    I'll add my two cents as well....

    Sometimes i wonder if we have the most pessimistic fans in the NBA. I just don't understand why anyone would feel conflicted about cheering for their team. You are supposed to cheer for your team! Why worry about mediocrity/championships/drafts when we have no control over that stuff??

    I trust that Masai knows more about the game/league/players than most of us combined. Why not trust that he will make the right decisions when they need to be made? Did anyone think we would get rid of Bargnani for the 3 draft picks, a role player and flexibility? Did anyone think that we would get rid of Rudy and his horrible contract for a complete bench and flexibility?

    The East sucks.....it has for a while now. However, i think it looks worse now than it will at the end of the year.

    Personally, I think there are A LOT of ways to improve our team moving forward. We still have a first round draft pick in 2014 (supposedly one of the deepest draft to come along in a while). We have a first round pick in 2015 and 2 first round picks in 2016. We have a 21 year old Center who looks legit. We have Demar who's only 24 and may be an all-star this year. We have Ross who's becoming a lock down type of defender before our eyes. I don't understand why posters get worried about the future when we don't even know the ceiling of our 3 young players.

    A high lottery pick gives you a better chance for an awesome player - I GET IT. I presume we all get that. However, this has always been the case (ever since the lottery). Why worry and break up a top 4 seed in the east for a CHANCE at a star/bust/mediocre player?

    I don't know why some of us feel that we have to worry about the future. We have no control over that and we're not paid to worry about it. It's fun to discuss what might be and what could be, but as fans we should support what we're seeing from this team.

    My advice is to enjoy the team this season and let Masai worry about the future......just my two cents.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I trust that Masai knows more about the game/league/players than most of us combined. Why not trust that he will make the right decisions when they need to be made?
    You could say this about every GM in the league, but that isn't reason to blindly trust that everything will work out for the best. It's good to question things.

    And after all the discussion about tanking, I don't understand how you fail to understand why a Raptors fan would feel conflicted about cheering for wins this year.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    My new year's resolution was to post more, so here it goes!!

    I think Adam Silver should get rid of divisions, and consider the CFL style conference switch over at the end of the season. So if there are 4 teams in the west that didnt make the playoffs but are better than seeds 5-8 in the east: BOOM they are now seeds 5-8. With that happening, more east teams would get lottery picks instead of already quite talented west teams continuing to get them.

    I would also lower the lottery odds SLIGHTLY to make it closer to even if you missed the playoffs. I still think you need the bad teams to get better through the draft. The wheel doesn't really address this. Could you imagine being a fan of a BRUTAL team and knowing you don't have the number 1 pick coming for like 20 more years. Ugh

    Would this fix tanking, not entirely no. I think it would help though. As for the actually topic of the thread: Tanking is tough now but I agree with other posters than Lowry is the key. Could the Raps still get bad enough to get a top 3 pick? Probably not even if Lowry is traded today. Could they decide he'll walk for nothing and trade him for a first rounder? Probably. Could they then package their pick, the Lowry pick, and a young player to get into the top 5-7? Maybe. MU has a lot of option, and I look forward to seeing which he takes!

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    Is it possible that we already have our high draft pick/future elite player/guy to build around in JV?

    Would it be smart to trade JV for the first overall pick this year? 3rd overall? 5th overall? Who makes this trade?

    My view is that JV will likely improve tons more. I don't know what his ceiling is but I think he has a non-zero chance of becoming the top 10 NBA player you need to win a title and therefore there is no need to tank to "get our guy".

    The problem with tanking is that not only is it not guaranteed to work (others are trying too) but even if you draft the guy you want, no guarantee he will stick around long enough to build that contender around him. You suck for a few years and then the guy leaves town. We've seen this before with Carter, McGrady and Bosh.

    In the last 20 years, only 2 players were drafted in the top 5 that went on to win a title with the team that drafted them. The number will go up if KD and Westie title with OCK but for now that's where we're at so perhaps there are other ways to go?

    JV seems like the kind of down to earth guy that might not have a huge desire to play in a big market city. If we build around him maybe he will stay. To me, this looks to be the best chance of building a contender. If in a year or two it becomes clear that he won't turn out to be this elite player, we can always tear it apart then. I see no reason to give up on this course of action though.

    Re. Lowry - I think he could be elite for several years to come. No guarantee of course, but he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that is going to stop playing when he signs his new deal. I make signing him my first priority.

    Cheers!

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    A high lottery pick gives you a better chance for an awesome player - I GET IT. I presume we all get that. However, this has always been the case (ever since the lottery). Why worry and break up a top 4 seed in the east for a CHANCE at a star/bust/mediocre player?

    I don't know why some of us feel that we have to worry about the future. We have no control over that and we're not paid to worry about it. It's fun to discuss what might be and what could be, but as fans we should support what we're seeing from this team.
    1st bold

    I think the whole point of framing the Raptors' success this season and their current position in the standings, within the historically awful EC, is to question the sustainability of such success. TL/MU talk about championships and building a legitimate perennial contender; winning the Atlantic division and capturing the 3rd/4th seed this season does not automatically equate to that goal becoming a reality.

    Many EC teams are tanking and/or have injuries and/or have underachieved and/or are stockpiling draft picks and/or are stockpiling young prospects with high ceilings.

    MU has said he is taking a "wait and see" approach this season and doesn't want to be stuck in "no man's land". My personal feeling is that MU is smart enough to take even winning the division this season with a grain of salt, when it comes to forecasting future success for this roster.

    There's absolutely room for some players on the roster to improve and a 1st round pick will be added to the mix. However, to keep this core intact, including the re-signing of Lowry, this team would once again be capped out.

    Obviously the only opinion that matters if MU's. Obviously none of us can predict the future. However, a lot of posters are of the opinion that in a typical year, this current roster has a ceiling of sneaking into the playoffs; that's good, but not exactly in-line with TL's talk of building a perennial contender for NBA championships. I think that's why some posters still promote rebuilding/retooling, without putting too much emphasis on a 3rd/4th place finish in the EC this season.


    2nd bold

    A lot of posters like putting on their GM hats, when discussing the Raptors. That's the nature of sports. Much like TL, we want the Raptors to be legit title contenders every year, which take planning. That's why we discuss NCAA players, or why we discuss trade ideas, or why we discuss anything beyond the games that have already been played. I'm not sure how you can follow a team without thinking about the future, whether it's the next game, the next season, who should be drafted, who should be traded, who should be re-signed, etc...

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  25. #99
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    1st bold

    I think the whole point of framing the Raptors' success this season and their current position in the standings, within the historically awful EC, is to question the sustainability of such success. TL/MU talk about championships and building a legitimate perennial contender; winning the Atlantic division and capturing the 3rd/4th seed this season does not automatically equate to that goal becoming a reality.

    Many EC teams are tanking and/or have injuries and/or have underachieved and/or are stockpiling draft picks and/or are stockpiling young prospects with high ceilings.

    MU has said he is taking a "wait and see" approach this season and doesn't want to be stuck in "no man's land". My personal feeling is that MU is smart enough to take even winning the division this season with a grain of salt, when it comes to forecasting future success for this roster.

    There's absolutely room for some players on the roster to improve and a 1st round pick will be added to the mix. However, to keep this core intact, including the re-signing of Lowry, this team would once again be capped out.

    Obviously the only opinion that matters if MU's. Obviously none of us can predict the future. However, a lot of posters are of the opinion that in a typical year, this current roster has a ceiling of sneaking into the playoffs; that's good, but not exactly in-line with TL's talk of building a perennial contender for NBA championships. I think that's why some posters still promote rebuilding/retooling, without putting too much emphasis on a 3rd/4th place finish in the EC this season.


    2nd bold

    A lot of posters like putting on their GM hats, when discussing the Raptors. That's the nature of sports. Much like TL, we want the Raptors to be legit title contenders every year, which take planning. That's why we discuss NCAA players, or why we discuss trade ideas, or why we discuss anything beyond the games that have already been played. I'm not sure how you can follow a team without thinking about the future, whether it's the next game, the next season, who should be drafted, who should be traded, who should be re-signed, etc...
    Ist Bold

    Obviously, winning the Atlantic doesn't automatically make us perennial contenders, but neither does tanking. You can say this and that about its a better chance for some star (if we tank), but nothing is for sure. I don't want to go back into another tanking debate because it's clear (TO ME) that we're not tanking. Pro-tankers can believe whatever they want.....I've already dropped the mic when it comes to the tanking debate. All i have to say is that you need to start somewhere! You want to start a winning culture?....you want to build a perennial contender? Now is the best time to start. We have some pretty good young pieces. The current group of players play with heart, tough defence, and they dont give up until the buzzer (regardless of the competition).

    2nd Bold

    There is a difference between thinking about the future and worrying about it.

    In the summer, what were we told? We're supposed to be a borderline playoff team.....7-8 spot in the East is the best case scenario remember?? Blow it up they said! Except, anything is possible in basketball. All it takes is one injury to an important piece and you can kiss the championship goodbye.

    I'm comfortable knowing that i cannot predict the future because i don't even know what i'm having for dinner tonight. It's fun to come on here, debate and listen to knowledgeable fans who know just as much or more than i do. Trust me, I hear your arguments and sometimes i still disagree. I'm sure you feel the same way about my stances. Regardless, my advice remains unchanged.....enjoy the games and let Masai worry about the future.
    Last edited by special1; Fri Jan 10th, 2014 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Regardless, my advice remains unchanged.....enjoy the games and let Masai worry about the future.
    This is the type of statement that drives me crazy and irks me about the high-horse some anti-tankers seem to be on during this win streak.


    Would I have preferred MU to start a rebuild in the offseason before the season started, likely resulting in a tank this season?

    Yes.


    Am I upset he didn't?

    No. I had an opinion about a team-building strategy, but I hardly take it personally. Besides, I'm a fan and he's the GM.


    Do I want the team to tank now or think they will?

    No, because tanking was never a proposed strategy; it was a potential/expected residual impact of a rebuild that started ahead of this season. MU could still decide to rebuild, whether it's this season or next offseason. Tanking is just a side-benefit that would have happened if he had gone the rebuilding route before this season started.


    Did I ever say/think/feel/believe that there was only one right/good way to approach long-term team-building?

    No. I had a preferred approach entering this season. Personally, I view the trading away of Gay and the rumored near trade of Lowry as evidence that at some point MU was attempting an early in-season rebuild/retool, which very well could have resulted in tanking this season. We'll never know the truth about MU's intentions or what the net result would have been, but to say MU was 100% leaning one way or the other, is foolish (and folks on both sides have attempted to do just that).


    Is there a single Raptors game this season that I haven't enjoyed?

    No. I'm a fan. MU decided not to implement the team-building strategy (or at least not on the same schedule) that I was hoping for, but that doesn't cause me to enjoy the games any less. Would any anti-tanker enjoy Raptors games any less if the team had crumbled after the Gay trade, or if the rumored Lowry trade had also gone down? I doubt it, because we're all still fans, whether the team follows our ideas or not, whether they play our favourite player or trades him away. We're Raptors fans and implying that a certain segment no longer enjoys the team is an immature attempt to one-up somebody you disagree with.


    Will I continue thinking/talking about and discussing/debating the future of this franchise?

    Of course. That comes with being a fan.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Jan 10th, 2014 at 04:49 PM.

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