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Thread: Growth, growth, growth...

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    Default Growth, growth, growth...

    This is my first forum post as I'm a new Raptors Republic member. I was getting a little pent up from Tim W.'s recent article, so I thought I would quickly enlighten you with my perspective on the Raptors and MLSE.

    The certainty of this front office's plan to make this team a winning culture starts from the top. Seeing how the Leafs season played out with a playoff appearance and the entire support of the city, I can't help but imagine Tim Leiweke drooling over this current Raptors production and growth as of late. He's spreading his positive, winning, love, chemistry dust all over MLSE, including TFC, don't you see?
    http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...urn-toronto-fc

    I may have sniffed some of that love dust myself but, I am a strong believer that this growth we've seen amongst the players and staff is nothing short of fantastic. Two years of this internal growth and playoff experience with a front office that wants nothing but success for their Toronto teams, makes me strongly believe 2016 is when the big moves start to happen. http://www.hoopsworld.com/2016...

    In the meantime, follow The Real Tim at http://www.threeinthekey.ca for some enjoyable Raptors reads.

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Tim W's article was absolutely BRUTAL. Uriji is impatient and has no plan apparently. And he gathered this information from the fact that the Raptors are winning games....

    Once and for all for you desperate ping pongers (can't even say tankers anymore): just because Uriji didn't use YOUR plan, doesn't mean he doesn't have A plan, and in fact possibly (gasp!) a GOOD plan.

    Now everybody relax and enjoy some basketball. This isn't the National Basketball Draft, we're actually in it to watch some games. Keep watching the future and miss the present.
    Dwane Casey says: Pound the Gay!!

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Tim W's article was absolutely BRUTAL. Uriji is impatient and has no plan apparently. And he gathered this information from the fact that the Raptors are winning games....

    Once and for all for you desperate ping pongers (can't even say tankers anymore): just because Uriji didn't use YOUR plan, doesn't mean he doesn't have A plan, and in fact possibly (gasp!) a GOOD plan.

    Now everybody relax and enjoy some basketball. This isn't the National Basketball Draft, we're actually in it to watch some games. Keep watching the future and miss the present.
    Hahahaha - this is my favourite thing

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    The main thing that is starting to really wear on me about this entire discussion is the false choice that is being presented between tanking for a star or keeping the current group together as though those are the only two options you can consider. Oh, and, you have to make that decision RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Building any organization doesn't come down to series of multiple choice questions frozen in one time and place, which answers are set in stone forever and produce specific pre-determined outcomes based on simple probablities. This is chess. The situation is dynamic, ever-evolving and presents countless alternatives for the prepared and intelligent.

    The last person I want in charge of any situation is someone who has their plan set in stone and can't make adjustments or change course along the way. A great organizational leader is constantly evaluating and making moves accordingly.

    As for those who seem to believe Ujiri has no plan, well, to me that perspective arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts of philosophy, strategy and tactics. They are not the same thing and a change of tactics or strategy does not imply the absence of an overarching organization philosophy that drives the overall direction of the business.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    The main thing that is starting to really wear on me about this entire discussion is the false choice that is being presented between tanking for a star or keeping the current group together as though those are the only two options you can consider. Oh, and, you have to make that decision RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Building any organization doesn't come down to series of multiple choice questions frozen in one time and place, which answers are set in stone forever and produce specific pre-determined outcomes based on simple probablities. This is chess. The situation is dynamic, ever-evolving and presents countless alternatives for the prepared and intelligent.

    The last person I want in charge of any situation is someone who has their plan set in stone and can't make adjustments or change course along the way. A great organizational leader is constantly evaluating and making moves accordingly.

    As for those who seem to believe Ujiri has no plan, well, to me that perspective arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts of philosophy, strategy and tactics. They are not the same thing and a change of tactics or strategy does not imply the absence of an overarching organization philosophy that drives the overall direction of the business.
    If anyone wants proof of plans being set in stone and being counterproductive, please see Randy Carlyle/Toronto Maple Leafs. I agree - life takes you in unexpected directions and those who adapt or ride the right wave are those that come out on top. The Raps are clearly at the beginning of something that may only POTENTIALLY lead to great things in the NBA, but the winning culture it can instill, respect around the league, and player development are arguably far more valuable than heading to the lottery again and not getting what you thought. No one will argue this isn't the best draft since 2003 - but no one should forget the list of game changing picks who didnt pan out, like Greg Oden. Throwing away the potential of something you're already seeing come to fruition for something that MAY turn out and will require a few more years in the lottery is very risky. The Eastern Conference doesnt need another Washington or Charlotte.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ibreak4coffee wrote: View Post
    If anyone wants proof of plans being set in stone and being counterproductive, please see Randy Carlyle/Toronto Maple Leafs. I agree - life takes you in unexpected directions and those who adapt or ride the right wave are those that come out on top. The Raps are clearly at the beginning of something that may only POTENTIALLY lead to great things in the NBA, but the winning culture it can instill, respect around the league, and player development are arguably far more valuable than heading to the lottery again and not getting what you thought. No one will argue this isn't the best draft since 2003 - but no one should forget the list of game changing picks who didnt pan out, like Greg Oden. Throwing away the potential of something you're already seeing come to fruition for something that MAY turn out and will require a few more years in the lottery is very risky. The Eastern Conference doesnt need another Washington or Charlotte.
    How did that work out for the Raptors after the 06-07 season, when a team that should have continued rebuilding unexpectedly won a dreadfully bad (and retooling) Atlantic division? They sneaked into the playoffs the following season, saw their star player walk away from the team and haven't attracted any big name free agents. They also slipped back into relative obscurity until this season, under eerily similar circumstances.

    I won't even get into the 'winning culture' wins down the stretch of the 10-11 season...

    I agree that nothing is guaranteed, as you pointed out. Don't then turn around and make it seem like winning this year in the historically bad EC is full of franchise-altering type guarantees, since you're stomping your own point.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    How did that work out for the Raptors after the 06-07 season, when a team that should have continued rebuilding unexpectedly won a dreadfully bad (and retooling) Atlantic division? They sneaked into the playoffs the following season, saw their star player walk away from the team and haven't attracted any big name free agents. They also slipped back into relative obscurity until this season, under eerily similar circumstances.

    I won't even get into the 'winning culture' wins down the stretch of the 10-11 season...

    I agree that nothing is guaranteed, as you pointed out. Don't then turn around and make it seem like winning this year in the historically bad EC is full of franchise-altering type guarantees, since you're stomping your own point.
    Different type of team. That was a bunch of vets, and Bosh. This is a starting lineup that features multiple players in their mid/early 20's... That team never replaced their starting SF with anything tangible when he went down from injury and age. This team has depth at every position except center. That team had a GM who fired his head coach and replaced him with an inexperienced understudy...If Casey is replaced by a none "big-name" coach MAYBE this becomes similar -- however -- that's an unlikely reach.

    BC won the Atlantic on the back of Embry's work and 2 years later tore it all down and never properly rebuilt the thing. Masai smartly left, put together a team with more power and won. Returned, and is winning. This is not the same.

    The question is if Masai can build a team that goes from season success to playoff success ... But dismissing culture when coaching decisions on successful teams are often tied to culture, is a bit much.

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    Can you link this Tim W article that you are talking about?

    Welcome to the forum.

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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Different type of team. That was a bunch of vets, and Bosh. This is a starting lineup that features multiple players in their mid/early 20's... That team never replaced their starting SF with anything tangible when he went down from injury and age. This team has depth at every position except center. That team had a GM who fired his head coach and replaced him with an inexperienced understudy...If Casey is replaced by a none "big-name" coach MAYBE this becomes similar -- however -- that's an unlikely reach.

    BC won the Atlantic on the back of Embry's work and 2 years later tore it all down and never properly rebuilt the thing. Masai smartly left, put together a team with more power and won. Returned, and is winning. This is not the same.

    The question is if Masai can build a team that goes from season success to playoff success ... But dismissing culture when coaching decisions on successful teams are often tied to culture, is a bit much.
    I agree with the bold. I think an even bigger question is how he goes from season success this season, to perennial playoff success in the future. Obviously we all have opinions about how best to do this, but I do believe in MU's ability to implement his plan, even if he doesn't make the details of that plan clear enough to us!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    How did that work out for the Raptors after the 06-07 season, when a team that should have continued rebuilding unexpectedly won a dreadfully bad (and retooling) Atlantic division? They sneaked into the playoffs the following season, saw their star player walk away from the team and haven't attracted any big name free agents. They also slipped back into relative obscurity until this season, under eerily similar circumstances.
    But when you reference the 2006-07 team the issue wasn't so much what BC did or didn't do in the 2006 offseason, rather, it was that he failed to make the requisite adjustments thereafter. BC wasn't necessarily locked into the 2006-07 roster. He chose one path that ultimately failed but there were other options besides the ones he chose. If Ujiri decides to stand pat this year he isn't stuck with this team forever.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    But when you reference the 2006-07 team the issue wasn't so much what BC did or didn't do in the 2006 offseason, rather, it was that he failed to make the requisite adjustments thereafter. BC wasn't necessarily locked into the 2006-07 roster. He chose one path that ultimately failed but there were other options besides the ones he chose. If Ujiri decides to stand pat this year he isn't stuck with this team forever.
    haha I posted almost the exact same thing in another thread that's comparing this team to the 06-07 team.

    I completely agree that MU is the big difference maker between the two teams, because I don't think he'll fall victim to reading too much into a single season's results (especially in an odd season against an historically bad EC), the same way BC did. I believe MU has a plan and will stick to it on his 5-year mandate, which would be polar opposite to BC's constant changing of strategic direction.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Tim W's article was absolutely BRUTAL. Uriji is impatient and has no plan apparently. And he gathered this information from the fact that the Raptors are winning games....

    Once and for all for you desperate ping pongers (can't even say tankers anymore): just because Uriji didn't use YOUR plan, doesn't mean he doesn't have A plan, and in fact possibly (gasp!) a GOOD plan.

    Now everybody relax and enjoy some basketball. This isn't the National Basketball Draft, we're actually in it to watch some games. Keep watching the future and miss the present.
    Tim has always been a glass half empty kind of guy. You should have seen him when he was a heavy poster...

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I agree with the bold. I think an even bigger question is how he goes from season success this season, to perennial playoff success in the future. Obviously we all have opinions about how best to do this, but I do believe in MU's ability to implement his plan, even if he doesn't make the details of that plan clear enough to us!
    The first thing he seems to be doing is hoarding future assets, like picks, instead of cashing out on those assets like BC did.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Tim has always been a glass half empty kind of guy. You should have seen him when he was a heavy poster...

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk
    I've got to ask... how'd that glass turn out?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    The main thing that is starting to really wear on me about this entire discussion is the false choice that is being presented between ****ing for a star or keeping the current group together as though those are the only two options you can consider. Oh, and, you have to make that decision RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Building any organization doesn't come down to series of multiple choice questions frozen in one time and place, which answers are set in stone forever and produce specific pre-determined outcomes based on simple probablities. This is chess. The situation is dynamic, ever-evolving and presents countless alternatives for the prepared and intelligent.

    The last person I want in charge of any situation is someone who has their plan set in stone and can't make adjustments or change course along the way. A great organizational leader is constantly evaluating and making moves accordingly.

    As for those who seem to believe Ujiri has no plan, well, to me that perspective arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts of philosophy, strategy and tactics. They are not the same thing and a change of tactics or strategy does not imply the absence of an overarching organization philosophy that drives the overall direction of the business.
    I agree with you to an extent, however, not all opportunities are equal at all times, and one may not get an opportunity as good as opportunity X (whatever one wants X to be) in the near future, or perhaps even at all.

    Aside from that, given that sports is a competition, not making a choice now in exchange for taking opportunity to make a different choice later (whaterver that choice may be), can just easily give your competition a competitive edge not only now, but when that future choice becomes available.

    There will always be future opportunities, the problem however is that nobody knows what those opportunities will be, when they will happen, and where we will be when they do become available.

    Lose now or win now as the two exclusive alternatives may be a false choice, but its also a reasonable choice or discussion point given the number of unknowns of the future hold.

    Nobody is gonna pass up a million dollar a year job where you get to test strains of marijuana all day because they don't know what future alternatives will be. The argument should be about taking the best alternatives given the current and reasonably predictable future situations. Sitting back and saying there are or will be future options is true, but given that we have no idea what those future options will be is more or less hoping that there will be future alternatives available and future alternatives equivalent to (or atleast close to) the current options, and that the we will be able to take advantage of them.

    And hope is not a plan.
    Last edited by Craiger; Sat Jan 11th, 2014 at 10:47 AM.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I've got to ask... how'd that glass turn out?
    It's about the same fullness or emptiness. Not enough for me to tune in regularly anymore.

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

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    Meh if Tim was right before he shouldn't be quickly dismissed. I don't know why concept of getting lucky is totally ignored. Sometimes you get lucky and get a good player later in a draft. Sometime players develops beyond of what you expected.
    So if Boston, Philly, Bucks and Orlando are ****ing. I guess one of them should be NBA Champion sometime in a future, according to the whole **** theory
    Last edited by MixxAOR; Sat Jan 11th, 2014 at 10:55 AM.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I've got to ask... how'd that glass turn out?
    We all know how that turned out, but the right question is WHY that turned out like that?
    Was it because as you suggest we didn't **** that year, get a high pick and build from the draft? Or was it because of the awful moves management took with overpaying free agents, giving away future picks and generally not doing your job?
    If you ask me the reason was definetely the latter, and I see absolutely no reason that MU is on the path to duplicate history. I still cannot believe there are still people that think the only way to build a contender is through a high draft pick in the draft - just look at the elite teams in the EC:
    1. Indiana - highest player drafted on that team was selected 10th!
    2. Miami - well we all know how that happened.
    Why do you think these two models cannot be duplicated in TO?

    And P.S.
    I do not think MU (unlike BC) has set in stone that certain players are untouchable. Just that he is not selling Lowry for expirings or DD for future non-lottery pick. If a right offer came along, he's pulling the trigger and the current Raptors run is just increasing MU asking price for our assets!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote dzoni71 wrote: View Post
    We all know how that turned out, but the right question is WHY that turned out like that?
    Was it because as you suggest we didn't **** that year, get a high pick and build from the draft? Or was it because of the awful moves management took with overpaying free agents, giving away future picks and generally not doing your job?
    If you ask me the reason was definetely the latter, and I see absolutely no reason that MU is on the path to duplicate history. I still cannot believe there are still people that think the only way to build a contender is through a high draft pick in the draft - just look at the elite teams in the EC:
    1. Indiana - highest player drafted on that team was selected 10th!
    2. Miami - well we all know how that happened.
    Why do you think these two models cannot be duplicated in TO?

    And P.S.
    I do not think MU (unlike BC) has set in stone that certain players are untouchable. Just that he is not selling Lowry for expirings or DD for future non-lottery pick. If a right offer came along, he's pulling the trigger and the current Raptors run is just increasing MU asking price for our assets!
    I'm not going to turn this into a debate about ****ing so I'm going to try avoid that in anything but generalities:

    We have no idea what all potential alternatives could have been. You thinking the result was because of bad management is fair, but is it any less fair if one thinks that not ****ing itself was bad management? It limited opportunities, potential, created choices that would have otherwise not existed etc. What if BC was willing to **** and rebuild (rather than 'accelerate' the rebuild) at numerous points in time in the past? What would have the return for Bosh or Bargnani been, who could have been drafted instead? etc etc So many unknowns... its impossible to quantify them all. How much different is BC's tenure if he does one simple thing different - not marry himself to Bargs?

    There is always an excuse for something if we look hard enough. If someone predicts X, another Y and X turns out to be true... its rarely hard to find an excuse or reason as to why it wasn't Y. Some times its fair, sometimes its not.

    I'm not going to disagree with you that management was bad, far from it. But I personally think one of the worst mistakes made was not being willing to rebuild when the team should have many many years ago.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I've got to ask... how'd that glass turn out?
    Even a broken clock is right twice a day. His glass half empty shtick this year is looking half full of shiit these days. He's such a stubbornly arrogant bugger though. A little while ago I made some comment about his predictable babble/shtick after a couple of the Raps resurgence games, and he responded that his "shtick is being RIGHT".

    Critique is part of fandom, but he's so obsessed with it, that he fits what I describe as the easiest way to be a fan of a team. Critcize everything and when you're "right", you can claim victory. When you're wrong, you can say you're happy to have been wrong. Win-win, no matter what happens,,,,, for a guy like him anyway, as in a guy who enjoys being "right" about his criticism. Ironic thing is, he can't handle criticism of his opinions very well at all.

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