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Thread: Growth, growth, growth...

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter
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    I've always said that winning a championship is an extremely long odds game. Regardless of what strategy you choose, odds are that it is not going to result in a championship. Choose any strategy, and for every team that rides it to a championship, there's usually a dozen or more that have tried the same strategy and failed. Which isn't to say that one shouldn't try. Just that arguing that one strategy is superior to another isn't about a high-percentage strategy vs. a low-percentage strategy, it's about two very low-percentage strategies. Tim's arguments (and dismissal of every other argument) ring of emotional attachment. Which is fine, it's sports, everyone gets too attached to teams, to particular players, or sometimes to strategies.

    I'm not ecstatic about the current course of the team, because I think too much of it will come down to ability to retain a key free agent for a decent contract this offseason. And we've seen that script before here. But if they get by that key moment, then a long run as third/fourth place team in the east seems possible, with a window to move beyond that into contender status. Right now I'm good with the odds of that strategy. I don't think it's anywhere near as rosy as Hollinger's 8.9% odds of winning a championship this year, but it's better than most teams in the league, and better than the Raptors' odds have been in many years.
    tank-agnostic

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  3. #22
    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    The main thing that is starting to really wear on me about this entire discussion is the false choice that is being presented between ****ing for a star or keeping the current group together as though those are the only two options you can consider. Oh, and, you have to make that decision RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Building any organization doesn't come down to series of multiple choice questions frozen in one time and place, which answers are set in stone forever and produce specific pre-determined outcomes based on simple probablities. This is chess. The situation is dynamic, ever-evolving and presents countless alternatives for the prepared and intelligent.

    The last person I want in charge of any situation is someone who has their plan set in stone and can't make adjustments or change course along the way. A great organizational leader is constantly evaluating and making moves accordingly.

    As for those who seem to believe Ujiri has no plan, well, to me that perspective arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts of philosophy, strategy and tactics. They are not the same thing and a change of tactics or strategy does not imply the absence of an overarching organization philosophy that drives the overall direction of the business.
    I've lost my post twice now on my stupid phone but suffice to say this is rationalizing tactics as strategy.

    Before the season MU gives the team a 45 day evaluation period. Tries to t.ank by trading Gay and actively shopping Lowry, making Demar available.

    Then we start winning.

    Now we have a NEW evaluation period?? What is beating a bunch of weak teams at home going to tell us that we don't already know?

    This is not dynamic chessic strategy, it's the epitome of flying by the seat of your pants.

    Sources:
    http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2013/10/30/raptors_cue_the_teardown_if_team_doesnt_take_fligh t_kelly.html

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2014/01/08/raptors_play_ugly_but_effective_in_win_over_detroi t_kelly.html

  4. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Before the season MU gives the team a 45 day evaluation period. Tries to t.ank by trading Gay and actively shopping Lowry, making Demar available.

    Then we start winning.
    How do you know he tried to ****? Where is this crystal ball that gives you exclusive access to MUs plans?
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  5. #24
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    What do you call the Knicks trade for Lowry that Dolan kiboshed because he didn't want to give up a pick?

    In conjunction with the Gay trade it was pretty obvious.

  6. #25
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    What do you call the Knicks trade for Lowry that Dolan kiboshed because he didn't want to give up a pick?

    In conjunction with the Gay trade it was pretty obvious.
    So basically, youre throwing out an arbitrary assumption based on trade rumours of which we do not know the entire details for.

    Do you know what happens when we assume?

    You make an ass of u+me.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  7. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    So basically, youre throwing out an arbitrary assumption based on trade rumours of which we do not know the entire details for.

    Do you know what happens when we assume?

    You make an ass of u+me.
    aren't you equally assuming the trade rumours are false?

    Is there any evidence that suggests this information shouldn't be seen as credible (Lowry and Demar were on the market?). They were are brought up by reliable sources if I'm not mistaken.

  8. #27
    Raptors Republic Starter Primer's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    aren't you equally assuming the trade rumours are false?

    Is there any evidence that suggests this information shouldn't be seen as credible (Lowry and Demar were on the market?). They were are brought up by reliable sources if I'm not mistaken.
    I don't think Ujiri was trying to **** by making Lowry available, he was just testing the market (that had a great demand for PGs). If he got a great offer he would take it, if not, he would move on (which he did). Ujiri wasn't backed into a corner where he had to move Lowry.The rumor was he was asking for a 1st round pick in addition to GRJR or Shumpert. That would have been a pretty good return on Lowry. NYK didn't bite so Ujiri moved on. The man is an opportunist, plain and simple.

  9. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I don't think Ujiri was trying to **** by making Lowry available, he was just testing the market (that had a great demand for PGs). If he got a great offer he would take it, if not, he would move on (which he did). Ujiri wasn't backed into a corner where he had to move Lowry.The rumor was he was asking for a 1st round pick in addition to GRJR or Shumpert. That would have been a pretty good return on Lowry. NYK didn't bite so Ujiri moved on. The man is an opportunist, plain and simple.
    all that may be true.

    But lets assume he asked for a 1st, Shumpert and/or GRJR

    Could we not reasonable expect that said deal would lead to losses for Toronto in the short term?

    Assuming thats what he wanted, and that he was willing to give up a good player, on a very good (and expiring) contract, in a position of need on this team - that move screams **** to me.

    (in no way saying that the deal would have been bad... just very ****y)

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  11. #29
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    So basically, youre throwing out an arbitrary assumption based on trade rumours of which we do not know the entire details for.

    Do you know what happens when we assume?

    You make an ass of u+me.
    Lol, thanks Teach.

    Regardless of the motive for the Gay trade, why do we now have a second evaluation period? Why do we constantly seem to be walking the line of "oh if we start losing then we'll blow it up"?

    You can't make long term decisions based on short term criteria.

    You can question the sources all you want, but there haven't been any leaks suggesting Masai has a grand plan in mind, while there have been plenty suggesting otherwise.

    If opportunism is to be his MO, a la Daryl Morey, so be it, but that is probably going to be a much tougher go here in Canada than it is in Houston.

  12. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    aren't you equally assuming the trade rumours are false?

    Is there any evidence that suggests this information shouldn't be seen as credible (Lowry and Demar were on the market?). They were are brought up by reliable sources if I'm not mistaken.
    How do you jump from me claiming he has no knowledge of MUs plan, to me claiming i do have knowledge of MUs plan??

    The point is don't freaking assume the motives of a trade rumour. I never made a claim about MUs plan.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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