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Butch Carter: Vince should enter Hall as a Raptor

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  • #61
    yertu damkule wrote: View Post
    and i'd invite anyone to run down the list of his best teammates & point out how the teams he was supposedly unable/incapable of leading to a championship deserved to do so anyway, given the relative strengths/weaknesses of the team itself.
    A true hall of famer would have put those New Jersey teams over the top. You know, the ones that already had the best point guard in the NBA and a 20 ppg small forward already on the team. Or that Toronto team with a solid supporting cast that lost to Allen Iverson and...Allen Iverson.

    Vince was what he was. A good player. A first option scorer, fifth option leader. ZERO first team all stars. One Second team all star. One third team all star. He was an also ran, a tertiary star, a guy that will be remembered for moments, not greatness.

    I guess I just have higher standards for a hall of fame. To me there's only about 10-12 guys per generation that should get in.
    9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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    • #62
      http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/...make-hall-fame

      older article, just some individuals opinions...VC, TMac, AI, Sheed and Grant Hill.

      I don't hate Vince...well, sometimes I do lol. I do acknowledge what he has done for the sport in general, and of course what he did for the Raps and bball in Canada. And despite what may or may not have went down between him and management, he completely shut down and quit on the team, his teammates, the franchise, and US - the fans. He gave the team relevance, and then he took it away. He set the franchise back years by quitting on the team. IMO, his resume is nice, but not really that impressive for a HOF'er, and quitters should never be inducted into the HOF. Luckily for Vince, nobody really gives a shit except some Raptors fans that were around to enjoy his ascension and then have their hearts broken when he gave up. I wouldn't vote him in, and I certainly don't want him in there wearing a Raptors jersey. Really, it's a good thing he could dunk, because that is all anyone will remember him for.

      Anyways, there is something more exciting going on now, and that's a Raptors team that is clearly better than any Raptors team that VC was a part of IMO.

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      • #63
        yertu damkule wrote: View Post
        there are, obviously, different tiers of players in the HOF, and VC, warts & all, belongs in the hall...though no one's going to mistake him as a top (or, really, a near-the-top) tier guy.

        for some, it's pretty easy to put aside all the bullshit with the way he ended his time with the raps, and just focus on the fact that for a pretty solid decade, he was one of the very best players (at least offensively) in the game. arguing that he's not worthy because he didn't make an all-NBA first team, or that he didn't 'take his teams 'far' (enough?) in the playoffs is a bit disingenuous. his playoff numbers (like t-macs) are actually very, very good, in some cases better than what he did in the regular season. so much of playoff success comes down to the strength of a team, and i'd invite anyone to run down the list of his best teammates & point out how the teams he was supposedly unable/incapable of leading to a championship deserved to do so anyway, given the relative strengths/weaknesses of the team itself.

        further, the b-ball HOF ISN'T the NBA hall of fame, so his contributions to the sport on larger scale do have an impact on whether he's a worthy HOFer.

        regardless, he's in, though not right away. time heals all wounds, though i'd actually be surprised if he goes in as a raptor...he should, but he had similar success with the nets from a personal statistics standpoint, and more playoff success with them.
        But what did he do that a bunch of other guys didn't do before him exactly?

        Look at his career after he left the raps.

        Now, compare him to a guy like Kevin Garnett, or Steve Nash or Allen Iverson (all HOF)

        These guys played at a high level their whole careers, were leading scorers, household names, MVP's, set records, etc. Garnett is in his 18th year, and he is still known as one of the top defensive players in the league.

        We're only having this conversation because our franchise is historically bad. To us, Vince is something special, but the reality is, except for a few years when he was dunking on everyone, he was just another talented scorer

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        • #64
          BallaBalla wrote: View Post
          But what did he do that a bunch of other guys didn't do before him exactly?

          Look at his career after he left the raps.

          Now, compare him to a guy like Kevin Garnett, or Steve Nash or Allen Iverson (all HOF)

          These guys played at a high level their whole careers, were leading scorers, household names, MVP's, set records, etc. Garnett is in his 18th year, and he is still known as one of the top defensive players in the league.

          We're only having this conversation because our franchise is historically bad. To us, Vince is something special, but the reality is, except for a few years when he was dunking on everyone, he was just another talented scorer
          Man, he was way bigger for the popularity of the game than most guys in his era, including arguably the ones you list, even Iverson. For his Toronto years, there was no player people wanted to see more than Carter. Yes, he was a scorer and dunker, but he was the most exciting, appealing player in the game. He wasn't just something special to us. He will be in debates about most exciting players to watch for years, along with guys like Dr. J, Dominique and MJ.

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          • #65
            white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            Man, he was way bigger for the popularity of the game than most guys in his era, including arguably the ones you list, even Iverson. For his Toronto years, there was no player people wanted to see more than Carter. Yes, he was a scorer and dunker, but he was the most exciting, appealing player in the game. He wasn't just something special to us. He will be in debates about most exciting players to watch for years, along with guys like Dr. J, Dominique and MJ.
            But you don't make it in for being popular, you make it in for being great.

            Dr. J made it in primarily for this ABA stuff, Dominique averaged 26+ for 10 seasons in a row and although he didn't win anything he took his team to the 2nd round multiple times where they lost to Bird's Celtics or the Pistons, that's not too shabby, and of course MJ is MJ.

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            • #66
              white men can't jump wrote: View Post
              Man, he was way bigger for the popularity of the game than most guys in his era, including arguably the ones you list, even Iverson. For his Toronto years, there was no player people wanted to see more than Carter. Yes, he was a scorer and dunker, but he was the most exciting, appealing player in the game. He wasn't just something special to us. He will be in debates about most exciting players to watch for years, along with guys like Dr. J, Dominique and MJ.
              For sure. For those few years, the Raptors were leading the league in ROAD attendance. People bought tickets outside Toronto just to see what Carter would do next.

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              • #67
                if he gets in it should be as a raptors no body remembers anything he did with the nets or mavs. I don't think he will get in though
                ya dun noe

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                • #68
                  Letter N wrote: View Post
                  But you don't make it in for being popular, you make it in for being great.

                  Dr. J made it in primarily for this ABA stuff, Dominique averaged 26+ for 10 seasons in a row and although he didn't win anything he took his team to the 2nd round multiple times where they lost to Bird's Celtics or the Pistons, that's not too shabby, and of course MJ is MJ.
                  Umm...you do make it in for being popular. There is a "contribution to the game" section, and Vince really helped the game maintain a high profile after Jordan left the Bulls. I'm pretty sure (tried to find a story/link, but can't) he was the biggest attendance draw in the league.

                  And something to consider with comparing scorers across different teams/eras....Nique got to take a lot of shots on those Hawks teams which lacked other great players. In the 10 straight 26+ scoring years he had (technically wrong since one of those years was 25.9), he never averaged less than 20.2 FGA per game. Vince never averaged more than 22.1 FGA per game, and only over 20 FGA attempts 5 times (including twice just at 20), whereas Nique got to average 20+ attempts for all 10 of those years, and only twice below 21 attempts, most years being from 22-25 attempts. So if Vince got to jack up more shots and inflate his scoring average, he'd be on par with Dominique? Who has also never led a team deep in the playoffs? And also is basically in the Hall for being one of the most exciting players/scorer of his era?

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                  • #69
                    It would be nice if the Raptors had a representative in the HOF. It's unfortunate that VC is our best opportunity for this. Personally, I can wait...

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                    • #70
                      Oh come on, contribution to the game section is for guys who build arenas in eastern European countries and women's college coaches, it's not for someone who did really well in the dunk contest.

                      Also in regards to his comparison with Nique, Nique had better stats basically across the board, more points, way better rebounding, better shooting percentage, more free throws and again he LED his team to the 2nd round multiple times.
                      Last edited by Letter N; Wed Jan 15, 2014, 03:20 PM.

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                      • #71
                        Letter N wrote: View Post
                        Oh come on, contribution to the game section is for guys who build arenas in eastern European countries and women's college coaches, it's not for someone who did really well in the dunk contest.
                        That's ridiculous. He was the most exciting player in the league. He put up 10 years of 20+ PPG. He accomplished enough to be in the Hall. To say it's because of the dunk contest that he'd be considered is absolutely ignorant, and a petty, pathetic argument from another "can't get over it" Raptors fan.

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                        • #72
                          white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                          That's ridiculous. He was the most exciting player in the league. He put up 10 years of 20+ PPG. He accomplished enough to be in the Hall. To say it's because of the dunk contest that he'd be considered is absolutely ignorant, and a petty, pathetic argument from another "can't get over it" Raptors fan.
                          That's a terrible assumption to make. This is going to turn into another t@nk vs anti-t@nk type debate. That wasn't so black and white and neither is this. I'm over Vince, but I do not think he deserves to be a HOF'er and it isn't because of his situation with the Raptors. But, if he does get in, I'd prefer he wasn't wearing a Raps uni.

                          And, what would be really pathetic is Vince getting accepted as a contributor but not a player.

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                          • #73
                            white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            That's ridiculous. He was the most exciting player in the league. He put up 10 years of 20+ PPG. He accomplished enough to be in the Hall. To say it's because of the dunk contest that he'd be considered is absolutely ignorant, and a petty, pathetic argument from another "can't get over it" Raptors fan.
                            He's not good enough to get in based on the numbers. He never accomplished anything. This is the Hall of Fame we're talking about, the best of the best. A guy with ZERO All-NBA first team honours is not one of the best ever.

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                            • #74
                              Sigh. I'm done with this thread. It's stupid in general. Mods should close it. It's pointless and impossible to try to actually discuss it.

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                              • #75
                                Letter N wrote: View Post
                                He's not good enough to get in based on the numbers. He never accomplished anything. This is the Hall of Fame we're talking about, the best of the best. A guy with ZERO All-NBA first team honours is not one of the best ever.
                                There's a lot of players in the Hall that has never been named as an All NBA First Team. Adrian Dantley first comes to mind. Drazen Petrovic, Reggie Miller, Ralph Sampson. I can go on and on.
                                Mamba Mentality

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