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Thread: Lowry/Derozan - best backcourt in the East?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    I'd have to agree that DD/Lowry is currently a touch better than Wall/Beal, but is there anyone on these boards who wouldn't immediately agree to a swap of these 4 players?

    This is one of those pointless debates that relies on people ignoring extraneous factors like injuries. Fact is, if Rose were healthy this wouldn't be anywhere close to a debate. If Rondo was healthy you could make the argument for he and Bradley too. If Irving could get ANY help from his 2 guard then you'd probably be looking at that combo. If Williams and Johnson were playing at anything close to their peak abilities then again, no debate.

    Then you have to consider team context and where the team generates it's offence: the Raps backcourt duo benefits from the fact that they essentially ARE the team's offense. If you sort Raptors by FGA per game you'd see that DD and Lowry's totals equal those of the next 4 highest Raptors on the list. So are they the best backcourt, or are they simply being relied upon more heavily than others and therefore putting up greater numbers? Context.

    So sure, maybe they're the best backcourt right at this very second. But it's by default, not by virtue of their being the best possible combo; they just happen to be in the injury-ravaged, **** heavy East. Go ahead and expand the question to the entire league and they're instantly behind San Antonio, OKC, the Clips, Phoenix, Portland, Houston, Golden State, and possibly Memphis (depending on how much you like Tony Allen).
    I completely disagree. Given how our backcourt has been performing lately, it would still be an interesting discussion point and worth debating. Everyone thinks they may know how backcourts or teams would perform if all was well, but the fact is you don't know. You, and others, almost seem offended by the topic. But, I did mention that you could add Rose and Rondo to the discussion if you wanted. And you immediately put Rose/Butler higher than Lowry/Derozan by DEFAULT, which is what you also advised against in the Raps case.

    So, sorry folks that I didn't expand the discussion to SF's, or the West, so you could easily dismiss the success of our starting backcourt!

    BTW, I would take Lowry/Derozan over Wall/Beal. I think our backcourt is performing better presently, I don't like Walls contract, and I think the intangible characteristics like heart, hustle and dedication are far superior than Wall/Beal.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Rookie Skip2MyLou's Avatar
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    2 elite defenders in Rondo and Bradley are game changers on defence but don't have the complete package

  3. #43
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    I completely disagree. Given how our backcourt has been performing lately, it would still be an interesting discussion point and worth debating. Everyone thinks they may know how backcourts or teams would perform if all was well, but the fact is you don't know. You, and others, almost seem offended by the topic. But, I did mention that you could add Rose and Rondo to the discussion if you wanted. And you immediately put Rose/Butler higher than Lowry/Derozan by DEFAULT, which is what you also advised against in the Raps case.
    Of course I don't know how injured players would perform. But are you suggesting it's unreasonable to give the former MVP of the league the benefit of the doubt until his injuries prove he's not the same player? Because I disagree.

    I'm not offended by the topic, I simply think it's silly to trumpet the Raps' duo when they're winning a race because everyone better than them dropped out or is in a different conference. They're still not a backcourt that you would want eating up about 1/3rd of your salary cap on a contender (and here I'm assuming what we all know to be true: Lowry will probably get paid 9-10mil per), so who cares if they're the best backcourt in an anaemic conference? To me it's a case of winning first prize at the Special Olympics.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    In 2 weeks, the answer will likely be Rondo/Bradley in Boston because they would impact the game at a much higher level but as of today I'd probably give Lowry/DD the top spot in a slight edge of Hill/Stephenson and Wall/Beal. But it's pretty close overall (as has been discussed/argued above by others).

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  6. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Yeah, it's a real serious issue that must be overcome...every good SG needs a 3 point shot!!!


    Or not.
    I must protest. Wade is elite at getting to the rim and creating for his teammates. DD is neither of these and he doesn't have the 3pt shot. I wish people would stop comparing the 2 players all together.

    Any and all DeRozan comparisons should be limited to Rip Hamilton. Same style of game-play IMO.

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Actually, Wade is a good comparison to 2013/14 DeRozan. Not in terms of sheer skill and talent, of course - Wade is clearly the better player, even at this point in their careers. But Wade's game at SG is elite without being a particularly good three-point shooter, because Wade has always had excellent floor sense and has always been a willing passer, and in his prime he was an elite passer. Until this year DeRozan was never a particularly good passer; now he's become one, and the comparison is not unreasonable to say he's a lesser version of Wade.
    Not even close. Not even with the "lesser version" in there to describe him.

    Wade is an elite ball handler and creater. DD is an average at best ball handler who isn't able to create for himself or others. And no, his increase in assists is not him being a creater, he is just actually passing the ball now instead of being a ball stopper.

    Oh, and whoever made the DeRozan Hater comment needs to give his head a shake. Nobody hates DD. That would imply that we think DD is a dbag or something of the like. DD is an upstanding Toronto citizen and is by all accounts a great guy. Just because we don't think that DD is as great as you think he is doesn't make us DD haterz

    _____________________________________

    Also best back-court in the East is Hill/Stephenson.

    Lowry is currently playing better than Hill. Though the gap is not as large as it seems, Hill is just not asked to be a primary option, he is fully capable of putting up bigger numbers. They can both defend and shoot the three equally well. Both can run a team as well, just Hill isn't being asked to score as much or be integral to initiating the offense due to the strength of his teammates.

    DD vs Stephenson isn't even close. Stephenson is better at EVERYTHING than DD. This isn't DD hating. Stephenson on any night can explode for a triple double while being a great defender. And it's not just that Stephenson can put up the stats, it's how he does it. He has the ability to completely dominate a game and make an elite defensive scheme look like a bunch of dancing monkeys.

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  8. #46
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Of course I don't know how injured players would perform. But are you suggesting it's unreasonable to give the former MVP of the league the benefit of the doubt until his injuries prove he's not the same player? Because I disagree.

    I'm not offended by the topic, I simply think it's silly to trumpet the Raps' duo when they're winning a race because everyone better than them dropped out or is in a different conference. They're still not a backcourt that you would want eating up about 1/3rd of your salary cap on a contender (and here I'm assuming what we all know to be true: Lowry will probably get paid 9-10mil per), so who cares if they're the best backcourt in an anaemic conference? To me it's a case of winning first prize at the Special Olympics.
    Taking a shot at the Special Olympics is not cool dude.

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  10. #47
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Taking a shot at the Special Olympics is not cool dude.
    Ya I agree not even I would go there and Im supposed to be the offensive member on this forum STOP SREALING MY BIT Lark!

  11. #48
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    oh sure. lets do it the other way. wall already averages more assists in his 3rd year than lowry does now, whos having a career high after 8 seasons. along with more assists, wall also averages more ppg. wall is a better FT shooter, equal rebounder, and more steals and even blocks than lowry averages after 8 seasons. wall even gets to the line more. 3 point shooter-wise, lowry has the one up on that.

    all this and 4 years younger than lowry is.

    i could do the same thing with beal vs derozan if you really insist.
    LMAO? This guy. Wall/Beal maaay one day be better, but as of right now they aren't I read someone saying Derozan and Lowry were WAAAY older too? I think it's only a few years.

    Wall isn't a max contract player, and beal is highly overrated. As of right now he's a shooter and that's pretty much it.

    DeRozan has elevated his game and is better than beal at EVERYTHING except 3 point shooting. So I don't even see how anyone's making that comparison. Lowry and Wall aren't that far off either.

    Gimme Lowry & DeRozan. Making us the best back court in east. Kind of explains our success right? If they weren't we'd be worst than most of these other teams, because there's a lot of better front courts still out there.

  12. #49
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Taking a shot at the Special Olympics is not cool dude.
    Yeesh, because worse things don't get thrown around here all day every day right?

    Or maybe step back a bit and think about why it's not an insult for a second.

    Are special Olympics still exceptional athletes, better than you or I could hope to be? Of course. The record in men's 100m for example is 10.46, that's fucking outstanding.
    But are they as skilled as the athletes that compete in the regular Olympics? Nope. That's just reality.

    Kinda like the Raps back court. Are they still outstanding, relative to the bulk of the league? Yep. But they among the best in the league? Not so much.

    Seems like a perfect analogy to me. Granted, to be more politically correct I could have used Commonwealth Games or some other lesser competition, but meh. Just because I'm making an offhand joke to bring my point home doesn't mean I don't respect the hell out of disabled athletes.

  13. #50
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Raps have now lost 3 of 4. Wiz are now 20-20. You guys still think Raps backcourt is better than Washington's?

    Beal > DeRozan
    Wall > Lowry
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  14. #51
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Raps have now lost 3 of 4. Wiz are now 20-20. You guys still think Raps backcourt is better than Washington's?

    Beal > DeRozan
    Wall > Lowry
    Based on this season alone, I might say:

    Beal < DeRozan
    Wall = Lowry

    Beal's been in and out of the lineup due to injury, and Lowry/Wall are both having great seasons (and helping their respective teams win more games than originally anticipated).

    But considering Washington's youth, I'd much rather have Beal and Wall moving forward.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  16. #52
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote C-Low wrote: View Post
    and beal is highly overrated. As of right now he's a shooter and that's pretty much it.
    Disagree. Beal can pass, shoot, and create off the bounce (there was some loose talk of converting him to a PG once he got to the NBA). And he's a bit of a thief on the defensive end too.

    He's much more than a shooter.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Disagree. Beal can pass, shoot, and create off the bounce (there was some loose talk of converting him to a PG once he got to the NBA). And he's a bit of a thief on the defensive end too.

    He's much more than a shooter.
    Agreed.

    Beal last night - 22pts 9rbs 8ast.
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  18. #54
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Agreed.

    Beal last night - 22pts 9rbs 8ast.
    On 53% shooting (8/15), including 75% (3/4) behind the arc.


    I'd be thrilled if Ross could develop into that type of player, given his shooting stroke and defensive abilities.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Part if it is how you determine best. Is it talent? Production? OR is it winning? If someone said, "There's a best of seven series STARTING TONIGHT and you have a choice of having Lowry and Derozan as your starting back court OR Wall and Beal, who would you take?" My answer would be Lowry and Derozan and it's not even close. Next year, I'd put my money on the Wall Beal combo, but right now, TODAY, Derozan and Lowry are playing better basketball. Hopefully, the Raptors will get Washington in the first round, as that would go a long way to settle the argument.

    The fact that Lowry and Derozan are the two most important players on a team that has a better RECORD than everyone in the conference other than Miami/Indy/Atlanta, goes a low way to saying they're better. If you look at the rest of our starters we've got a two second year players, and Amir not the most potent of front courts.

    I don't think it means much, and I don't see them being the best back court next year, but right now it's pretty easy to make the case for them.
    and now washington are also 20-20, tied with us. so what exactly is that saying about 'the best backcourt in the east' derozan and lowry?

    answer: they're not.

  20. #56
    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    and now washington are also 20-20, tied with us. so what exactly is that saying about 'the best backcourt in the east' derozan and lowry?

    answer: they're not.
    Yeah because wins depend on who's backcourt is better and have nothing to do with Valanciunas playing like crap 3 straight games or Amir going into the tank. No points from Terrence Ross..do you even watch the games?
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  22. #57
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Yeah because wins depend on who's backcourt is better and have nothing to do with Valanciunas playing like crap 3 straight games or Amir going into the tank. No points from Terrence Ross..do you even watch the games?
    maybe if you actually READ THE POST i was quoting aka "the fact that Lowry and Derozan are the two most important players on a team that has a better RECORD than everyone in the conference other than Miami/Indy/Atlanta, goes a long way to saying they're better."

    that was what i was referring to. but feel free to try and dispute this in some bizarre away as well. how about comparing derozan to wade again or more dumb shit like that?

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  24. #58
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    Lol are you serious? Those aren't his averages. Those are his current season stats as of 37 games. He's played 5 seasons already. His ACTUAL average is lower.

    Those stats on beal are only from 27 friggin games. But that's ok I'll let you roll with it. The fact that beal is A SOPHOMORE who's stats aren't even significantly different from derozans except he's shooting higher 3 pointers than LOWRY clearly makes beal the more rounded player.

    The fact that Beals assists numbers aren't that far from derozans (the one thing everyone's so proud of DD for this season) except it took DD 5 years to get to those numbers and beal only 2, makes beal the more solid player in that department as well.

    Overall, wall and beal together are clearly the better of the pair.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    I don't think you understood the original question being asked. No one is comparing careers, or upside.

    This is a 'now' question. And Derozan currently is better at facilitating (especially after the Rudy trade), better at defending, better at rebounding, and all the while he is in a harder position being the number 1 option on O (he gets doubled alot). I would say Derozan has more skill currently than Beal.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    I don't think you understood the original question being asked. No one is comparing careers, or upside.

    This is a 'now' question. And Derozan currently is better at facilitating (especially after the Rudy trade), better at defending, better at rebounding, and all the while he is in a harder position being the number 1 option on O (he gets doubled alot). I would say Derozan has more skill currently than Beal.
    um if this is seriously a "NOW" question, then its quite easily beal/wall. derozan has been playing like absolute garbage this past week.

  26. #60
    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    um if this is seriously a "NOW" question, then its quite easily beal/wall. derozan has been playing like absolute garbage this past week.
    ^lol, teach me the ways, master spin doctor
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