View Poll Results: If VC formally apologizes to Raps fans would u b ok with the franchise honouring him?

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  • Yes

    9 56.25%
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    5 31.25%
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Thread: SN: "Vince Carter: The re-imagination of VC"

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Starter RPT23's Avatar
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    I remembered those VC days fondly as well. I placed my faith in the Raptors' success squarely on his shoulders. And if he didn't come though, it would be an absolute failure. But I looked passed it and knew there would be plenty of other chances in the future because we had one of the best players on the planet playing for and in Toronto! Then injuries happened, then the sulking, the talk of the town where he'd tipped off the other team with our plays, the re-hab that should have been yet video clips of him shimming off a full-blown crip walk with (at that time) Lil' Bow Wow at one of his concerts (I think in T.O.) all began to change my view of him. Sure, he's likely a great guy and yeah, did a lot for the community, and when things were going well in T.O., it looked like he gave his all. But when the chips were down, he flat out didn't. I couldn't believe this dude with all the talent in the world was crapping out on us, even through his injuries, his "rehab", and the sulking which led to one of the most controversial trades in Toronto's short history! I agree, he put us on the map. But just as easily, took us off of it when he exited the way he did.

    But in retrospect, looking back, I fondly remember the good times when things were rolling--and I choose to do so. I can't forget the past but it's the past. Live and learn. With our new management team, I'm hoping for good things again. The recent play has helped a lot. As a devoted Raptor fan, I hope we can strive to building a better brand, a better team, a better environment where players that see Toronto not just a place to visit but hopefully a place they all want to play in.
    #Raptor4Life, #Prepping4thePlayoffs

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  3. #62
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    Anyone would get mad when having a discussion with someone who refuses to see the world from any other view point or to open their mind to new information. He's giving you counter-points to every single poor argument you make and you keep going back to the dry well of "you're just a bitter fan"


    Many of us that went through the VC era don't give a damn about apologies. The two most worthless things in this life are apologies and excuses, and he had the latter in spades while he was here, so I don't care if he's shoveling the former now.
    So some people are grown up, stable people, and others are sad and flawed.... I'm not losing sleep, but I can tell you this, if you think you just read "counter points" to what you seem to think are "poor arguments" (even though there was no argument, or debate in my post, just my accurate thoughts on the situation), than my friend, our work here is done, no need for further discussion, its not my job to fix you.



    Good luck mon ami

  4. #63
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    For many fans, he burned a bridge that can never be built up again. Is this harsh? Childish? Unfair? I don't think so. I think it's the flipside to the coin that let him earn over $100,000,000 playing a game.
    yes, it is childish, and unfair.

    hpw people cant separate real life from entertainment is beyond me.

    What another person makes, has zero to do with you. Get over it. its not a point of contention.

    Most people behave as if the shit they have done in their own lives has been perfect.

    Perhaps none of you have made any mistakes.... great, but I would imagine none of you have done anything of any real value or interests to the general population either.... so really, nobody gives a shit.

    You guys speak as though somehow you have been personally offended, which to me is hilarious, because you are so far away from the actual issue, nothing matters.... you just think it does in your own sad little worlds.

    Sp hey man, yeah, HATE away. Hate that anpother man makes so much cash for what he does. hate that he doesnt kick ass for the SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT product you choose to worship.... hate it all. Totally cool, totally stable and rational. Ima just stay over here in " it doesnt affectmesville" and be happy. It takes a bit more than some underachieving athlete to get me gooing nowadays, and for ANY individual out there doing his thing, I tend to thin kits all good. Live and let live, save you stupid as fuck judgments for yourself, in the end, you will likely see just how ridiculous it all is.

    Have fun hating guys.... see where it gets ya in the end.

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  6. #64
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote RPT23 wrote: View Post
    I remembered those VC days fondly as well. I placed my faith in the Raptors' success squarely on his shoulders. And if he didn't come though, it would be an absolute failure. But I looked passed it and knew there would be plenty of other chances in the future because we had one of the best players on the planet playing for and in Toronto! Then injuries happened, then the sulking, the talk of the town where he'd tipped off the other team with our plays, the re-hab that should have been yet video clips of him shimming off a full-blown crip walk with (at that time) Lil' Bow Wow at one of his concerts (I think in T.O.) all began to change my view of him. Sure, he's likely a great guy and yeah, did a lot for the community, and when things were going well in T.O., it looked like he gave his all. But when the chips were down, he flat out didn't. I couldn't believe this dude with all the talent in the world was crapping out on us, even through his injuries, his "rehab", and the sulking which led to one of the most controversial trades in Toronto's short history! I agree, he put us on the map. But just as easily, took us off of it when he exited the way he did.

    But in retrospect, looking back, I fondly remember the good times when things were rolling--and I choose to do so. I can't forget the past but it's the past. Live and learn. With our new management team, I'm hoping for good things again. The recent play has helped a lot. As a devoted Raptor fan, I hope we can strive to building a better brand, a better team, a better environment where players that see Toronto not just a place to visit but hopefully a place they all want to play in.
    thank you for your rationality, its refreshing

  7. #65
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    A lead singer for my favorite alternative rock band was one of the best in the industry. He was pretty much carrying the band, they were getting a lot of #1 hits, selling records like you wouldn't believe. He worked his tail off and wrote most if not all the songs. They weren't winning Grammy's but they were getting triple platinum on every album. I bought all their albums, t-shirts, posters and I went to at least 30 concerts during those years. Then after 4 years, he started hitting up the drugs and sex. He would miss concerts citing illness, or showed up drunk and forgot the lyrics. He got into fights with other band members, and soon he was becoming an outsider, media's whipping boy. There were constant rumors that the band was going to break up. In the end, after 2.5 years of sub-par albums, the band decided it was too big of a distraction and he was told to leave. The bastard stole a bunch of unwritten songs and went and joined a fucking boy band. I felt so betrayed. Somehow the break up inspired him and his new group become the #1 boy band in the world. The existing band was devastated for years, unable to recruit another guy with such a great voice and song-writing ability.

    I don't disagree with a hater's stance, I'm just saying that I've forgiven him for it. People are people, and they are generally imperfect. Selfishness is common. Pride too. I am normally a guy who holds grudges but in this case I've moved on. I've learned over the years that nothing is gained by holding grudges over things I have no control over.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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  9. #66
    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    A lead singer for my favorite alternative rock band was one of the best in the industry. He was pretty much carrying the band, they were getting a lot of #1 hits, selling records like you wouldn't believe. He worked his tail off and wrote most if not all the songs. They weren't winning Grammy's but they were getting triple platinum on every album. I bought all their albums, t-shirts, posters and I went to at least 30 concerts during those years. Then after 4 years, he started hitting up the drugs and sex. He would miss concerts citing illness, or showed up drunk and forgot the lyrics. He got into fights with other band members, and soon he was becoming an outsider, media's whipping boy. There were constant rumors that the band was going to break up. In the end, after 2.5 years of sub-par albums, the band decided it was too big of a distraction and he was told to leave. The bastard stole a bunch of unwritten songs and went and joined a fucking boy band. I felt so betrayed. Somehow the break up inspired him and his new group become the #1 boy band in the world. The existing band was devastated for years, unable to recruit another guy with such a great voice and song-writing ability.

    I don't disagree with a hater's stance, I'm just saying that I've forgiven him for it. People are people, and they are generally imperfect. Selfishness is common. Pride too. I am normally a guy who holds grudges but in this case I've moved on. I've learned over the years that nothing is gained by holding grudges over things I have no control over.
    I wouldnt call it a grudge just he doesnt deserve it. I am one voice if toronto wants to reitre his jerseey here then so be it.

  10. #67
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    I watched plenty. He was killing right around, or just after I was actually playing a pretty good level of ball in college. I knew what I was watching and at the time I was furious with him. He whined, he would let marginal injuries become an excuse to pout and give half assed efforts. He cracked under the pressure and gave immature interviews.

    I hated him.

    I was also a kid myself, mid to late 20's, had an idea, but not a clear understanding of how things in pro sports happen. How its a business, and its shady, and affected by business people who have no idea what they are doing, how it can affect players and how young men, coddled most their lives can sometimes crack under the stress, the exposure and deification. I wasn't completely able to see how ridiculous it was that the Raptors gave him so much say in who to sign after they had such a run.... and how the media can be so quick to turn on a young man who had made mistakes, and place a boatload of blame, and negativity upon shoulders that couldn't even handle the success, let alone the failure. I didn't quite understand. I just saw the result, and that result made me a little sick.

    I was in my 20's then. I am 41 now. I know the business of sports very well now. I see how things work. I am not at all unable to separate my anger for a small sample of a young mans action on the basketball court from the much larger, and much more complicated web of complications, lies, and half truths that are released to the media, twisted to create stories to sell advertising, and used to either create gods, or tear down mortal men at their leisure. I am ell aware of what I was watching back then. I was mentally equipped to understand it a high level due to my own experience, and as a fan I was privy to the anger we get when our hero's fail us. I am proud to say I am not swayed too much by what I saw, I mean I certainly expected, or would have liked to see more, but I didn't. We didn't. Vince Carter failed. He failed because his franchise, and his management failed him. Together, they had forged a relationship doomed to fail and when it all happened, the media, and the fan base, as is the nature of humans in large crowds, needed a singular place in which to vent their anger, and that target was Vince Carter.

    I notice that most people, if not all, who were raptor fans back then, remained Raptor fans. Where Vince shared in the problem that led to the unfortunate failure of the team in his time in Toronto, he did only SHARE in that. The larger source of the problem, the franchise and its MLSE management itself, got ZERO hate. All of us kept cheering, kept showing up, kept paying, kept watching. We picked sides, and logically, and locally, it made sense to pick the franchise as the righteous entity, and label Carter the nemesis.

    And so, years later, people only half remembering, and as many had no idea then, and still have no idea today what really transpired, they only remember "Vince carter is bad, he is an evil, lazy, asshole of a man". The truth is much different. Instead, and more accurately, the truth is closer to this; Vince Carter is a good guy. As a young man, despite having physical abilities beyond many of his peers, he was not suited to role of Pro sports leader or superstar. He was never one with a killer instinct, never the guy to lead a franchise, and no matter how much we all desperately, HE desperately wanted to be that guy, it was always going to fail. What was left after his collapse, was hatred, and a lack of respect for a man who was anything but negative, anything but mean spirited, or dishonorable. What was left was a man who just wanted to play basketball and forget about the past. He was a guy that on many occasions apologized for his actions, and when pushed would never throw anyone under the bus. He accepted his role in his failure in Toronto, he has always endorsed the city and its inhabitants, and to this day still talks about how great a place the city is. Vince Carter is just a man. He isn't a hero, or a god. He didn't do wrong to one person in the Toronto fanbase personally, an dI would offer that whatever fans think they were cheated out of, Carter himself has paid for 1000 times over. Its time to let this stay in the past.

    People will want to argue this. You can if you like but you will be wrong. Its not right to place hatred on professional athletes. It isn't right to sight a person for his failures, and to never forgive them (as if its ANYNOES right to judge). As a society we have a hard time separating reality form our "hero's". But if you are able to finally strip all the bullshit deification media and culture has placed upon these people, when you finally see them as equals, simply men and women who excelled at something we all liked to watch, but just people nonetheless, then, and only then will you begin to realize why its wrong to have hatred, negative thoughts or anger towards them when they don't meet our standards. When they are human, just like us. When you no longer place your hero's on pedestals, you will finally have no problem when they fall, and the fall will be a small one.

    I am at that point in life and have been for a decade or so. I don't hold a grudge on any athlete, and I certainly don't dislike Vince Carter. He's fine by me. I think he'd be a cool guy to have dinner with, and I would gladly call him a friend if a met him.
    This is just way too over the top for the subject at hand.

    You're trying to equate real, soul crippling hatred with a bunch of fans who don't want to see his jersey retired, or are rolling their eyes at the premise of a TV special honouring a player who they believe quit on their team and city.

    I remember a lot of the VC era fondly. The rookie of the year season where it seemed like he was single handedly putting the Raptors on the NBA map. Watching the dunk contest with my high school basketball team and all of us losing our minds. The week where he hit road buzzer beaters against Boston and the Clippers as the Raptors enjoyed tangible success for the first time in their history....

    But I also remember how his departure played out and it wasn't flattering for him in the least. Terrible body language. Uninspired play (look at his stats before and after the trade). The running joke around the league that Vince was faking injuries every night. Constant rumours about demands from the organization - trade and otherwise. Was my perception skewed at the time by a media force that was motivated to tear him down? It's possible, but I sure remember it as a guy who was blatantly trying to force his way out of town.

    I choose to take both sides into account when I form my opinion on him. I recognize that he did a lot for the franchise and helped them gain traction for the first time in their history but he also set them back considerably by the nature in which he left. That, my friend, is perspective; looking at the entire picture and forming an opinion. Absolving him of any wrong doing by pinning the blame on the media or the fans themselves because they pressured him too much is just as shortsighted as those who blindly hate the man, it's just on the opposite side so you feel like you're more noble doing so.

    At the end of the day I don't want to see his jersey retired. I think we should save that privilege for someone who has truly earned it, not just because we're desperate to do it after 20 years and VC seems like the best option we have. But am I losing sleep, thinking about it every day or actively hating the man? No.
    Last edited by Fully; Mon Jan 20th, 2014 at 09:19 AM.

  11. #68
    Raptors Republic Rookie big red's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    This is just way too over the top for the subject at hand.

    You're trying to equate real, soul crippling hatred with a bunch of fans who don't want to see his jersey retired, or are rolling their eyes at the premise of a TV special honouring a player who they believe quit on their team and city.

    I remember a lot of the VC era fondly. The rookie of the year season where it seemed like he was single handedly putting the Raptors on the NBA map. Watching the dunk contest with my high school basketball team and all of us losing our minds. The week where he hit road buzzer beaters against Boston and the Clippers as the Raptors enjoyed tangible success for the first time in their history....

    But I also remember how his departure played out and it wasn't flattering for him in the least. Terrible body language. Uninspired play (look at his stats before and after the trade). The running joke around the league that Vince was faking injuries every night. Constant rumours about demands from the organization - trade and otherwise. Was my perception skewed at the time by a media force that was motivated to tear him down? It's possible, but I sure remember it as a guy who was blatantly trying to force his way out of town.

    I choose to take both sides into account when I form my opinion on him. I recognize that he did a lot for the franchise and helped them gain traction for the first time in their history but he also set them back considerably by the nature in which he left. That, my friend, is perspective; looking at the entire picture and forming an opinion. Absolving him of any wrong doing by pinning the blame on the media or the fans themselves because they pressured him too much is just as shortsighted as those who blindly hate the man, it's just on the opposite side so you feel like you're more noble doing so.

    At the end of the day I don't want to see his jersey retired. I think we should save that privilege for someone who has truly earned it, not just because we're desperate to do it after 20 years and VC seems like the best option we have. But am I losing sleep, thinking about it every day or actively hating the man? No.
    Stop it. You're not allowed to be rational or level-headed here. This is the internet.

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  13. #69
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Wow, this is actually a deep discussion, but here I go:

    Craig - I agree, especially with the gist of life perspective and sports.

    Fully - Some of the Vince-hate in this thread is pretty over the top/emo. Like Craig, I find it kind of weird to be holding such an emotional grudge against a basketball player 10+ years later on. I hear all the arguments about effort/honour/the fans/the salary/character/nobility etc. etc., and frankly I find those arguments to be more over the top than Craig's lengthy reply. No disrespect intended, but it seems like some of these guys are taking the ESPN and 24/7 hyperbole about warriors and legends and legacies and battles and victory and honour a little too seriously. That's entertainment media exaggerating the grandeur of sports because they're selling you a product and they don't want you flipping over to watch So You Think You Can Dance with Doug Smith.

    I do respect how Vince has carved out a productive career for himself as a vet. You can see how he fits in Dallas - he comes off the bench and leads the 2nd squad. You know what? That's the kind of role his personality/mental make-up is actually suited for. He's embraced that role, restructured his game, and he's a productive basketball player. That's all.

    I don't expect athletes to be noble/inspiring characters/role models. In 2014, I think it's borderline ridiculous that anyone still thinks this way. Where have you been since OJ drove his Bronco down the freeway? Cheating, steroids, steroids, steroids, steroids, concussions, brawls, affairs, scandals, car crashes, shootings, murders, alcohol, cover ups....

    Charles Barkley doesn't know why you're looking for role models in ball sports, and neither do I. These guys put a ball in a hole. That's it. There are real heroes and role models in the world, but why you expect Vince Carter to be Mahatma Gandhi is beyond me.

  14. #70
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Well, in their defense, I would say they're not looking for role models, but just people that they like, as a person.

    I don't know where I stand on that regard, but I think there's more to it than that. I think when you look at someone like Lance Armstrong -- do you like him? Because I don't. I've never been a fan cycling as a sport, but I don't like that guy because he cheated and not only that, went to great lengths to prove he wasn't cheating.. to the point that he ruined people's lives.

    I think each person has a line, and once an athlete crosses that line, they can no longer be forgiven. I probably have a longer "leniency?" of what I allow an athlete to do, as opposed to say, my friends, or my parents for example. I expect more from people who I actually know.. complete strangers, like Vince Carter, without really knowing what happened.. I can't judge him the same way I would a co-worker that I work with every day, etc.

    I don't think we should judge each other on how we're wired. I don't think we'll change eachother's minds
    your pal,
    ebrian

  15. #71
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    For me, this whole VC discussion isn't about forgiveness, getting over it, or certainly not hate. We are considering honoring a guy that blatantly quit and gave up on the organization, and did it in about as unprofessionally as one could under the circumstances. And yet, some are satisfied to honor the guy by taking him back as a player and/or retiring his jersey. Forget basketball even, is this the type of behaviour any of you expect out of an organization like MLSE, or any other for that matter? I certainly don't, and to be honest, if this goes down it's no trouble to tell that the brass making the decisions about this (Bell/Rodgers, TL, MU or whoever) weren't around when VC gave up, quit on the team, coaches, teammates and fans. If any of those folks were around when this went down, then I doubt they even consider honoring Vince in any sort of way. And, I am more offended by VC's behaviour at the time as it relates to the coaches and his teammates, moreso than the fans or myself.

    Mo Pete should have his jersey retired before VC, class acts only IMO!!

  16. #72
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    Mo Pete should have his jersey retired before VC, class acts only IMO!!
    Retire a jersey because he's a class act? that's new. I guess it's time for the Raps to retire Landry Fields #2 and Steve Novak's #16!!

    Anyway, VC was a huge part of Raptors history. EASILY the greatest Raptor of all time. And he had a HUGE impact in Canadian basketball. That alone deserves a lot of merit.

    And obviously i was old enough to watch VC play in his prime with the Raps(99-03). When i think of him, i think of the good old days. The dunks, the game winners, slam dunk contest, all the highlight reel plays, 2001 playoffs. That's what i remember the most.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

  17. #73
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    For me, this whole VC discussion isn't about forgiveness, getting over it, or certainly not hate. We are considering honoring a guy that blatantly quit and gave up on the organization, and did it in about as unprofessionally as one could under the circumstances. And yet, some are satisfied to honor the guy by taking him back as a player and/or retiring his jersey. Forget basketball even, is this the type of behaviour any of you expect out of an organization like MLSE, or any other for that matter? I certainly don't, and to be honest, if this goes down it's no trouble to tell that the brass making the decisions about this (Bell/Rodgers, TL, MU or whoever) weren't around when VC gave up, quit on the team, coaches, teammates and fans. If any of those folks were around when this went down, then I doubt they even consider honoring Vince in any sort of way. And, I am more offended by VC's behaviour at the time as it relates to the coaches and his teammates, moreso than the fans or myself.
    Good post.

    I don't get why it's become such a melodramatic, black-and-white issue.

    You can forgive/forget/move on, while still having no desire to see him newly honored by the franchise in any way (ie: retire his jersey).



    Personally, I thought VC was a selfish, immature dick for the way he ended his tenure in Toronto. I was irked at the shit return in trade we were left with. However, once he was gone, he was gone. I never understood the need to waste any time or effort booing him relentlessly, since that only fed his ego and served to motivate him (based on his own comments on the subject). I haven't cared one way or another about VC for years.

    However, it would make me sick to see MLSE and the Toronto Raptors grovel at his feet in an attempt to mend fences. That would make the franchise look incredibly desperate, in an attempt to find some former player to honor, just in time for their 20th anniversary and launch of their rebranding. It just seems cheap and hollow all around. As a fan, I would rather wait until there's a player worth honoring.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jan 21st, 2014 at 04:11 PM.

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  19. #74
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Retire a jersey because he's a class act? that's new. I guess it's time for the Raps to retire Landry Fields #2 and Steve Novak's #16!!

    Anyway, VC was a huge part of Raptors history. EASILY the greatest Raptor of all time. And he had a HUGE impact in Canadian basketball. That alone deserves a lot of merit.

    And obviously i was old enough to watch VC play in his prime with the Raps(99-03). When i think of him, i think of the good old days. The dunks, the game winners, slam dunk contest, all the highlight reel plays, 2001 playoffs. That's what i remember the most.
    I was just making a point, not actually suggesting we retire Mo Pete's jersey, just that he would deserve it more than Vince IMO, because VC was NOT a class act...but all those dunks man, I hear ya, gotta respect all those dunks!

  20. #75
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Good post.

    I don't get why it's become such a melodramatic, black-and-white issue.

    You can forgive/forget/move on, while still having no desire to see him newly honored by the franchise in any way (ie: retire his jersey).



    Personally, I thought VC was a selfish, immature dick for the way he ended his tenure in Toronto. I was irked at the shit return in trade we were left with. However, once he was gone, he was gone. I never understood the need to waste any time or effort booing him relentlessly, since that only fed his ego and served to motivate him (based on his own comments on the subject). I haven't cared one way or another about VC for years.

    However, it would make me sick to see MLSE and the Toronto Raptors grovel at his feet in an attempt to mend fences. That would make the franchise look incredibly desperate, in an attempt to find some former player to honor, just in time for their 20th anniversary and launch of their rebranding. It just seems cheap all hollow around. As a fan, I would rather wait until there's a player worth honoring.
    Bold: exactly.

    And I don't agree with the booing either. But neither do I wish to see his jersey hanging from the rafters. You know, I have never seen a Raps game in person, but I expect I'm going to make that happen next season, if not this one. And when I do get to the ACC, I do not want to see any indication of this franchise honoring his time here.

  21. #76
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    I might be able to tolerate a popcorn & pizza combo named after him....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  22. #77
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    This is just way too over the top for the subject at hand.

    You're trying to equate real, soul crippling hatred with a bunch of fans who don't want to see his jersey retired, or are rolling their eyes at the premise of a TV special honouring a player who they believe quit on their team and city.

    I remember a lot of the VC era fondly. The rookie of the year season where it seemed like he was single handedly putting the Raptors on the NBA map. Watching the dunk contest with my high school basketball team and all of us losing our minds. The week where he hit road buzzer beaters against Boston and the Clippers as the Raptors enjoyed tangible success for the first time in their history....

    But I also remember how his departure played out and it wasn't flattering for him in the least. Terrible body language. Uninspired play (look at his stats before and after the trade). The running joke around the league that Vince was faking injuries every night. Constant rumours about demands from the organization - trade and otherwise. Was my perception skewed at the time by a media force that was motivated to tear him down? It's possible, but I sure remember it as a guy who was blatantly trying to force his way out of town.

    I choose to take both sides into account when I form my opinion on him. I recognize that he did a lot for the franchise and helped them gain traction for the first time in their history but he also set them back considerably by the nature in which he left. That, my friend, is perspective; looking at the entire picture and forming an opinion. Absolving him of any wrong doing by pinning the blame on the media or the fans themselves because they pressured him too much is just as shortsighted as those who blindly hate the man, it's just on the opposite side so you feel like you're more noble doing so.

    At the end of the day I don't want to see his jersey retired. I think we should save that privilege for someone who has truly earned it, not just because we're desperate to do it after 20 years and VC seems like the best option we have. But am I losing sleep, thinking about it every day or actively hating the man? No.
    hey there.

    I can see what youre saying, however it reads different, well it must, i am not too riled up. I often wish we could have a giant skype discussion on things like this.

    I respect what you guys are saying Fully, Apollo...etc. But I think you are speaking on more of a surface angle and I am looking at it from more of a real life scenario. Its fun to hat eon athletes, I do it ALL the time. Its just when push come sto shove, and we are talking for real about a person, a human being, I think to Hate an athlete for something like that, after years, after apologies..... well it just crosses healthy lines of logic.

    Know what I mean.

    Anyhow guys. Been stressing lately, lost the woman of my dreams recently.... so I apologize if I offended anyone. I can say things nicer.

  23. #78
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    Bold: exactly.

    And I don't agree with the booing either. But neither do I wish to see his jersey hanging from the rafters. You know, I have never seen a Raps game in person, but I expect I'm going to make that happen next season, if not this one. And when I do get to the ACC, I do not want to see any indication of this franchise honoring his time here.
    Y abut I neve rsaid a word about his jersey being retired.... i just dont hate the guy, dont think anyone should. But retiring a jersey.... people shouldnt even bring that word up unless the player in question won a Championship with the team.

    Shit, Carter didnt even get to the third round.

  24. #79
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    Are fans wrong to be booing LeBron in Cleveland? Or Carmelo in Denver? Of course not.

    If VC did what he 'did' at the end of his tenure on 'ANY' team, fans would react the same way. It's hard to forget, even when forgiveness is granted.

    My suggestion: The issue shouldn't be about the city of Toronto; the city has passionate fans. VC knows this. If VC is "truly bothered" by the booing, and his 'legacy', and he wants the booing to ease up, he needs to check his ego and call his agent. That call should be short and sweet (find a way to get back on the Raptors roster; coming off of the bench of course). If he finds his way back on to the roster he needs to do so knowing the negative attention he'll be subjected to. But in facing the music, he is given a final chance to redeem himself on some level to a large amount of fans. He'll have the chance to be the hardest working player off the bench. He'll have the chance to be the most active player in the community; to start countless basketball camps like the ones Tristan Thompson and others attended. VC is intelligent, and he knows these scripted TV interviews can come across the wrong way. And as an intelligent man, he needs to look in the mirror and realize that while intimidating to head "home" after all the "hurt" he specifically caused, he still has a chance to let his actions speak louder than words... Fans will cheer for hardwork... The ball is in VC's court.

  25. #80
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    Quote gametime wrote: View Post
    Are fans wrong to be booing LeBron in Cleveland? Or Carmelo in Denver? Of course not.

    If VC did what he 'did' at the end of his tenure on 'ANY' team, fans would react the same way. It's hard to forget, even when forgiveness is granted.

    My suggestion: The issue shouldn't be about the city of Toronto; the city has passionate fans. VC knows this. If VC is "truly bothered" by the booing, and his 'legacy', and he wants the booing to ease up, he needs to check his ego and call his agent. That call should be short and sweet (find a way to get back on the Raptors roster; coming off of the bench of course). If he finds his way back on to the roster he needs to do so knowing the negative attention he'll be subjected to. But in facing the music, he is given a final chance to redeem himself on some level to a large amount of fans. He'll have the chance to be the hardest working player off the bench. He'll have the chance to be the most active player in the community; to start countless basketball camps like the ones Tristan Thompson and others attended. VC is intelligent, and he knows these scripted TV interviews can come across the wrong way. And as an intelligent man, he needs to look in the mirror and realize that while intimidating to head "home" after all the "hurt" he specifically caused, he still has a chance to let his actions speak louder than words... Fans will cheer for hardwork... The ball is in VC's court.
    Do you really think fans and media wouldn't see through such a blatant, self-serving PR move?

    Such a move would not benefit the Raptors team/franchise in any way, other than to possibly garner some increased media attention. It reeks of a selfish, desperate, calculated move, designed to stuff skeletons back into closets and usher in a fairy tale ending to a single player's career (not to mention hoping it increases the chances of being honored individually through potential jersey retirement and HOF consideration) - the prodigal son returns... ick!

    If the past is the past, with the idea of forgiving, forgetting and moving on, this would be an awful move on the franchise's part. It would open old wounds and only really serve a single player in the twilight of his career - an ironic twist, given the biggest complaint about VC was always his ego and constantly putting himself ahead of his team.

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