View Poll Results: If VC formally apologizes to Raps fans would u b ok with the franchise honouring him?

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  • Yes

    9 56.25%
  • No

    5 31.25%
  • Maybe/Not Sure

    2 12.50%
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Thread: SN: "Vince Carter: The re-imagination of VC"

  1. #161
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I don't particularly care one way or another, but to flat out say there's no way he deserves it because he quit on the team for half a season (again, when the team also quit on him by going into rebuilding after he told them he didn't want to be part of a rebuild) is forgetting one important thing...

    The NBA is a business. It's not politics, or religion. They're not designating a leader, or saint. If the franchise decides it'll be good for business to retire his jersey, they'll do it. They won't care if it'll rub a part of the fanbase the wrong way. That segment will get over it because they'll still want to cheer for the Raptors anyway.

    I don't care about retiring his number, or even whether he makes the HOF. There are arguments for both with some merit regardless of what fans who still hate him think. The former especially though, especially way more down the road (like another 10-15+ years) is probably pretty likely. At some point they'll want to do something to generate some publicity and revenue, and they'll want to hang his jersey and have a big celebration. They can start selling Carter jerseys again, have nostalgic stories air about the "first good days of the franchise", make a better TV special than the one on last night, use it as a platform to sell other crap related to that era, use it as a gimmick in multiple games leading up to the actual event...etc...etc....

    Quote 4hunnit_degreez wrote: View Post
    You want to have a Raptors jersey retired? The line starts after Alvin Williams. ALVIN. WILLIAMS.
    The man sacrificed the longevity of his career, and essentially gave us both his knees during our 'Purple Fever' days.
    Hahaha. I wish. To this day, it's the only Raptors jersey I own. When I go to games and see people with Bargnani jerseys, I wonder how they can have any self-respect.

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  3. #162
    Super Moderator .40 Cal Flakes's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why does it have to be "hate" if we don't like what Vince Carter did and don't like the idea of honoring him? People keep saying this but those who are arguing against honors are for the most part arguing points based on principals and logic. Those who are saying, "hey it's water under the bridge" are the people driven by an emotional attachment(nostalgia) if anything.

    For me, I already said that weak ass apologies aren't going to cut it. If he booked an hour long special on his "decision" and laid it all out there with honesty and was genuinely sorry then let's see...

    For the record, if he left the same time and on good terms I still would believe that he didn't do enough to receive the honor of no one being allowed to wear his number ever again and to make a shrine of it. A second round elimination and a dunk contest win is going to seem small in the grand scheme of things if you're thinking 20-30 years out. Look around the league and check out what other players had to do to get such honors for their teams.
    I didn't mean literal "hate" or whatever, which is why I put it in quotations. I get that some of those who are against honouring VC, are so, based on principals rather than emotion. And I get that for some it's based on neither, but rather on the belief that he didn't have enough team success while he was here to deserve it.

    Personally, if I had to base it strictly on principals, I would have to say a big "fuck no" to the idea of honouring the guy. If I were to base it strictly on personal and/or team success he would fall just short of the criteria to have his jersey retired. But looking at the bigger picture it's so much more than just wins and loses, personal stats, personal principals. Dude did an immeasurable amount of good for the franchise, NBA, basketball in Canada etc etc. If not for his years here I don't think it's too far fetched to believe in the possibility that we might not have a franchise today. And yes I can't lie nostalgia does come into play for me when I come to the conclusion that honouring the guy is the right thing to do. Really the only that has me iffy is that apology to the fans and organization. If that ever comes than definitely there is no reason not to honour the guy imo.

    And if I'm not mistaken MLSE has a policy of not retiring individual player numbers (look at Leafs). Rather they honour the player by hangin his jersey in the rafters. Future players can still use the number. May not seem like much but this small detail is the icing on the cake for me, cuz tbh I don't think his number should be outright retired. I do think though hanging his jersey would be a good idea.

  4. #163
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote .40 Cal Flakes wrote: View Post
    I didn't mean literal "hate" or whatever, which is why I put it in quotations. I get that some of those who are against honouring VC, are so, based on principals rather than emotion. And I get that for some it's based on neither, but rather on the belief that he didn't have enough team success while he was here to deserve it.

    Personally, if I had to base it strictly on principals, I would have to say a big "fuck no" to the idea of honouring the guy. If I were to base it strictly on personal and/or team success he would fall just short of the criteria to have his jersey retired. But looking at the bigger picture it's so much more than just wins and loses, personal stats, personal principals. Dude did an immeasurable amount of good for the franchise, NBA, basketball in Canada etc etc. If not for his years here I don't think it's too far fetched to believe in the possibility that we might not have a franchise today. And yes I can't lie nostalgia does come into play for me when I come to the conclusion that honouring the guy is the right thing to do. Really the only that has me iffy is that apology to the fans and organization. If that ever comes than definitely there is no reason not to honour the guy imo.

    And if I'm not mistaken MLSE has a policy of not retiring individual player numbers (look at Leafs). Rather they honour the player by hangin his jersey in the rafters. Future players can still use the number. May not seem like much but this small detail is the icing on the cake for me, cuz tbh I don't think his number should be outright retired. I do think though hanging his jersey would be a good idea.
    I completely understand the bolded argument, which many posters have made in favor of VC. Winning the dunk contest definitely helped put the Raptors on the international NBA map. However, the way he left the team (on top of fact that he left, period) had an equally (at least) negative impact on the franchise and the perception so many players, media and foreign fans have about playing in Toronto.

    Mighty Mouse had the same sort of impact, first a huge positive, followed by a huge negative. They both put Toronto on the NBA map, only to walk out on their team, creating the perception that star players don't want to play in Canada. As far as I'm concerned, related to the bold, the way VC left completely undid everything positive he had previously done for the franchise. So at the end the day, all VC accomplished was winning the dunk contest and leading the Raptors to the 2nd round (and his decision to put himself ahead of the team by attending graduation diminishes that accomplishment).

    I have no ill will towards VC. The team owes him nothing. The fans owe him nothing. It would be a disgrace to see him honored in any way, because he didn't earn it. It just reeks of desperation by the franchise, in an attempt to find somebody to honor ahead of the team's 20th anniversary and rebranding and all-star festivities.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Jan 24th, 2014 at 12:09 AM.

  5. #164
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Franchise should honor him either way.

  6. #165
    Super Moderator .40 Cal Flakes's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I completely understand the bolded argument, which many posters have made in favor of VC. Winning the dunk contest definitely helped put the Raptors on the international NBA map. However, the way he left the team (on top of fact that he left, period) had an equally (at least) negative impact on the franchise and the perception so many players, media and foreign fans have about playing in Toronto.

    Mighty Mouse had the same sort of impact, first a huge positive, followed by a huge negative. They both put Toronto on the NBA map, only to walk out on their team, creating the perception that star players don't want to play in Canada. As far as I'm concerned, related to the bold, the way VC left completely undid everything positive he had previously done for the franchise. So at the end the day, all VC accomplished was winning the dunk contest and leading the Raptors to the 2nd round (and his decision to put himself ahead of the team by attending graduation diminishes that accomplishment).

    I have no ill will towards VC. The team owes him nothing. The fans owe him nothing. It would be a disgrace to see him honored in any way, because he didn't earn it.
    Bold 1: No doubt the way he left had a negative impact, but I wouldn't say it was equal to his positive contributions (but that's all subjective). Let's not forget though that he was not alone in the role of his departure. Management, the franchise, the media, all had their part in him leaving and the perception created out there. It's not all on VC.

    Bold 2: Dude we can't even begin to compare the level of impact the two had on the franchise. Two different leagues man.

    Bold 3: I don't think that's accurate. His positive contributions lasted for years after he left. He helped (along w/ management, the franchise, the media) to build the fanbase we have in Toronto and Canada, hell internationally . People who would never otherwise have been Raptor fans are fans because of him and are still around today. He also helped to influence the next generation of ball players in Canada.

    Listen by no means am I a VC fanboy. I'm not trying to absolve him of his actions. I haven't forgotten all the bullshit he did. Truth be told when I read some posts and I am reminded of the things he did it still grinds my gears a little. I'm just trying to see the bigger picture and not let the media over hyped drama of a few months overshadow the positive impact he had on this franchise. Anyways this is probably similar to the tank, no tank debate in that whichever side your on, your on. I'm not trying to sway anybody's opinion really just throwing in my two cents.

    Cheers

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  8. #166
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    First up ... I really enjoyed this relatively short - but poignant - review of Vince & the Fans. It brought back a certain nostalgia. Which for me, and I know for others, it was early childhood as a Raptor fan(atic).

    I also think this poll missed one alternative.
    Should Vince apologize?

    I believe that Vince has served his time. I get the booing. It was a reflection of basketball fans realizing what had just escaped. Of course that just part has lasted much longer that a dictionary would ever ascribe to.

    .

    Should Raptor fans (and the organization) celebrate - and forgive - what hindsight will probably acknowledge. That Vince Carter single handedly had the most profound effect on basketball in Canada. A sport invented by a Canadian, no less.

    He made me a fan. He made many a fan. He made Tristan a fan - his idol. A reason to make basketball his eventual livelihood. That also includes Wiggins and other foreign NBAers from the North.

    Vince Carter elevated basketball in Canada more then anyone else. He made Steve Nash more relevant - and not in any superior way. He just made Canadians more aware of this 2xMVP PG. And before anyone gets their David Hasselhoff panties in a bind, IMO .... Carter electrified a sport that had always been dominated by the ice men (cometh). Guys with sticks still dominates, but put a Star in front of these folks, and not only would basketball return to its own personal glory, but with a more entrenched base.

    Which I contend will always reside in Vince Carter chronicles.

    Time to bring our history back to where it should be. At some point we have to give up the elephant imitation. That denser brain persona could be hazardous with our lifestyle.
    .
    Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Fri Jan 24th, 2014 at 01:35 AM.

  9. #167
    Raptors Republic Rookie gametime's Avatar
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    Last edited by gametime; Sat Jan 25th, 2014 at 09:03 AM.

  10. #168
    Raptors Republic Rookie gametime's Avatar
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    On VC Trade:
    13:57 - "If I stop it, I'm meddling. And he's (Rob's) dead. I wish I stopped it. Worst trade." (Richard Peddie)
    14:11 - "It may have hurt my opportunities to get another GM's job." (Rob Babcock)

  11. #169
    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    Quote gametime wrote: View Post
    i wanted to believe in this video but its obviously everyone on that show was lying out their ass
    except for babcock, hes just an idiot

  12. #170
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    One point no one has mentioned here is that the Raptors have never honoured anyone in this fashion before and they're setting a precedent with the first.

    The most prestigious teams out there would not honor Carter's feats in Toronto if he did them on their teams, it would not meet the precedents (ie: think Celtics, Lakers, Knicks, etc).

    So here's a question for you. What if the Raptors land a couple stars who play 80-100% of their careers here in Toronto and maybe win a title or make the finals? What then if the Raptors establish long term winning ways? Players stick around and want to play on the winners MLSE pumps out. Where then does Carter fit in "Raptors Greatness"?

    I get it. NBA basketball was still new to Toronto and the team stunk before him. He won a jam competition and made the second round once. His time in Toronto was exciting but we saw no greatness and yet we want to give him the honor usually reserved for the greatest of players and/or long time serving players?



    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

  13. #171
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    U One point no one has mentioned here is that the Raptors have never honoured anyone in this fashion before and they're setting a precedent with the first.

    The most prestigious teams out there would not honor Carter's feats in Toronto if he did them on their teams, it would not meet the precedents (ie: think Celtics, Lakers, Knicks, etc).
    Those teams already have traditions galore. Carter wouldn't have brought the NBA to these teams, it was already there. For Toronto, Vince brought meaning within the NBA - the first real capture of interest.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    So here's a question for you. What if the Raptors land a couple stars who play 80-100% of their careers here in Toronto and maybe win a title or make the finals? What then if the Raptors establish long term winning ways? Players stick around and want to play on the winners MLSE pumps out. Where then does Carter fit in "Raptors Greatness"?
    One of those stars could be Wiggins - as far fetched as that possibility sounds. There is a greater influx of Canadians to the NBA, and for many of them, Vince Carter was inspiration. Carter's Raptor Greatness will be that one who helped launch not only Stars, but an afinity towards the Raptors.

    On the chances of getting Wiggins, there are potentially 2 lottery picks available. One comes from the lesser of Knicks and Nuggets, both teams out of the play-offs at this time. Denver is in the West & the Knicks are not those last year Knicks. And if Masa was interested in tanking, which would likely include selling Lowry for 1st round pick + extras (ie. young talent), Raps would have their own lottery pick. As to tanking, I'm slipping over to the dark side, and wishing Masa would make it happen - and go for the long ball.

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I get it. NBA basketball was still new to Toronto and the team stunk before him. He won a jam competition and made the second round once. His time in Toronto was exciting but we saw no greatness and yet we want to give him the honor usually reserved for the greatest of players and/or long time serving players?

    Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk
    In LA I could understand lower tolerance for a Star who asks to be traded. But in Canada, Carter put up good numbers for 6 of his 7 years as a Raptor. While I would never deny Carter had a very flawed exit, his significance trumps that. Players leave teams all the time. Including teams like LA.

    The acrimony for him was simply because everyone knew what was leaving, and that it never was coming back. At least not during prime years. This betrayal symptom had fans extend their hate for much longer then any psychiatrist would suggest is healthy.

    At some point, Toronto has to acknowledge their history. For myself, and many others, Carter was the real beginning to this sport that has made us somewhat fanatical about it.

    .....................

    .....................

    Sent from my brain using little neuron thingies

  14. #172
    Raptors Republic Rookie phdmac's Avatar
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    Quote lilmamba_ wrote: View Post
    Just thinking 'bout Vince's Home Coming brings tears to my eyes.
    Please Please Please come back
    end the legacy right where it began

    Like Craig says there's a reason sportsnet's putting this out there
    #HOMECOMING
    I dont even care if he's not Canadian like TT said he was our MJ and still is

    every single time that he stepped on to that allstar floor with the words TORONTO on his chest
    if only he would....
    I know for a fact the reason that Sportsnet put this out there is because Grange had a good story idea and Vince finally got on board with telling it. There is no MLSE conspiracy that is dictating television content for something just short of tampering
    Ball Don't Lie

  15. #173
    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
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    i was actually shocked to hear how much stock vince actually put into his dunk competition... he was actually super proud of that and considers that to be one of his greatest achievements... fuckin amateur dunk competitions have better dunks than his in that comp.. yes i was in awe at the time but still. if he's gonna be remembered as a raptor it better not be for some fuckin sideshow, it better be basketball related.

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  17. #174
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    Default VC Documentary The Reimagination

    This is a short VC documentary. It is not new but I thought some of you may have missed it.

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