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Thread: Looking ahead: what position(s) needs upgrading?

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic All-Star Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Vasquez is infuriating to watch. Pretending to run out to the perimeter but running to the side furthest from the rim, giving too much space to jump shooters, missing assignments...combine that with the ridiculous, nonchalant passes that a blind person could intercept -- he might as well just hand the ball to the opposition sometimes. For the Raptors to get anywhere in the playoffs they need a better option than him.

    Sadly, he's light years better than the mish-mash rig-a-ma-roll he replaced. Getting either a pass first responsible backup, or an efficient scoring PG should be priority #1.
    Goes along with my post about improving the bench, as a first option.

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  3. #62
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Vasquez is infuriating to watch. Pretending to run out to the perimeter but running to the side furthest from the rim, giving too much space to jump shooters, missing assignments...combine that with the ridiculous, nonchalant passes that a blind person could intercept -- he might as well just hand the ball to the opposition sometimes. For the Raptors to get anywhere in the playoffs they need a better option than him.

    Sadly, he's light years better than the mish-mash rig-a-ma-roll he replaced. Getting either a pass first responsible backup, or an efficient scoring PG should be priority #1.
    You forgot the thing that annoys me the most, that being his delusions of grandeur as far as scoring is concerned. His "floater" which usually clanks off the rim being one if the worst, along with his "drive" to the bucket that is so slow he never makes it, meets a trio of defenders and throws up this half hook thing that slams off the backboard.

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  5. #63
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I know most of us are pretty high on the Starting Lineup of Lowry, Ross, Derozan, Amir and JV ... but in order to go from where we are (successful winning roster) to Title Contender, somethings gotta give, and someones gotta go in order to make the necessary improvements.

    So I'm not asking which route do we take in order to make the improvements, I'm asking which Position is primed ready for an Upgrade. I'm going with PF. Sorry Amir.

    I really like what Lowry, Ross, Derozan bring to the 1,2,3 Position as a tandem, and feel they can grow into a very solid Trio. And JV is the Boss.
    Aside from getting a superstar (in which case, who cares about positions), I see two options that I like very much in the near future: Lance Stephenson in 2014 free agency and Chandler Parsons in 2015. So I guess my answer is "wing." Both very young, both seemingly realistic targets. Try to sign one.

    If that works, roll with an impressive 3 wing rotation of DeMar, Ross and Lance or Parsons. It would be a deep Nuggets-ish team.

    At the same time, you always look at "2 for 1" trades and try to get a star, even if that leaves one of the positions weaker short term.

  6. #64
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    Toronto fanbase is an absolute joke and I'm sorry to the fans that don't deserve this. We draft a kid 9th overall say he's going to be shit and he keeps proving us wrong. The guy is realistically going to make the all star game if not be one of the biggest snubs. And we want him gone as he continues to improve. i don't know what more the guy needs to show you all.. he's passing rebounding making good basketball plays. The defence isn't elite but were 6th overall in league with him playing like 36-38 mpg... I just don't get why we want to trade away players that all teams need. Tell me an all stat who doesn't occasionally take bad shots cuse thats the only real knock i got on Demar.
    It honestly made me sick when i went to the Chicago game in November (raps shit the bed) but demar had like 38 out of 80 points. Gets taken out of game with a minute left and like 5 fans cheer. Are you kidding me I'm sorry but like what more does this guy have to do to win you all over?

  7. #65
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    I don't disagree that Amir is the main man and the anchor. But I think to say that Val is the worst defender of the regulars is pretty ridiculous.

    The fact that Val is ranked so highly for rim protection shows how he helps erase a lot of mistakes by the frontcourt. That's why when we take him out and go small at the end of games we tend to lose more. Amir is great but he can't do it alone.

    There is a reason Vasquez, Patterson, and Demar have reps as bad defenders. The team defense benefits immensely from having guy like Lowry and Amir (and now Ross) tighten things up. Not to mention that if Vasquez and Patterson had to play opposing starters they'd get their Drtgs mauled pretty quick.

    Start a team of Vasquez, Demar, Salmons, Patterson, and Val and I think you'd change your tune pretty quick as to who is the worst defender of the bunch.
    OMG, I had a very big write up (probably a mistake in and of itself) breaking down players defenses not only on this team but over the years.... and needless to say computer shut down of its own accord and everything was lost.

    So I'm going to simplify.

    Reputation is just that, reputation. It is not necessarily truth or fact. It can change or be changed. It can be created or made up. What one believes is true will differ from one to another.

    If we look at Patterson's defense vs his teams over the years (over the same time periods) his numbers improve each and every year. They are worse than the teams, but that number decreases until this year in Sacramento where he is positive defender, and then jumps again with the Raptors (I believe they were +1.7, +1.2, +1.7, +0.3 [averaged +1.2 for that year... trade from Houston to Sacramento], -0.4 and now -5). Does he deserve a 'rep' as a bad defender? Or was it just a young player improving? Was he a bad defender who is now a good defender?

    If we assume Vasquez is a bad defender, and Patterson plays 47% of his minutes with Vasquez, then its fair to assume Vasquez would bring Patterson's #s down (and only Salmons has played more minutes with GV than Patterson, by 3 minutes). If we assume Amir is a good defender, and Patterson plays 27% of his minutes with Amir, then its fair to assume Patterson is at a statistical disadvantage vs those who play more with Amir (and every regular aside from Hayes/Hansborough.. who are at this point questionable 'regulars'... plays more minutes with Amir than Patterson does). Despite all that he is still coming out as a positive.

    So let me ask - is Patterson a bad defender? Is there information out there that makes us believe Patterson should be considered bad at this point in time? If there isn't, shouldn't we start questioning this 'rep' he has apparently been given? If we are going to question his 'rep', is it not time to start questioning other's 'reps' to?

    I agree that the dynamics of basketball will influence #s, it will leave room for error. Who one plays with, against and at what times will all have an impact. Players coming off the bench tend to have better DRTGs then starters.

    But teams also don't run hockey line ups, and neither does the opposition. The Raptors have 960 min played since the Gay trade, since then the most used line up (the starters) have played approx 250 minuts of that (approx 25%)... the next most used is 60 min!! The variety of line ups is enourmous. Simply saying person X starts, and person Y doesn't just isn't enough to fill in the remaining 75% of the game.

    If people want to argue its hard to precisely compare starter X vs bench player Y, I'll agree. So If people want to say "we can't claim Val is worse then bench player X", I'll buy that. But at the same time then, we can't fairly claim he is better then them either.

    Given that (using 'regular' players), Val has the worst net DRTG on the team, worst among starters, and that the range of differential between Val and any bench player is large... I think, at the very least, that clearly leans one direction over the other.

    I don't think this means he is necessarily bad now, I don't expect it will remain the same, I do expect him to improve over time. But right now, if he isn't the 'worst' then at the very least he is close to it... and people are debating over marginal differences.

    Net DRTGs vs team since the Gay trade

    Starters:
    Amir -0.2
    Demar 0
    Lowry +0.6
    Ross +2.4
    Jonas +3.3

    Bench
    Hayes - 8.9
    Hansborough -6.9
    Vasquez -5.7
    Salmons - 4.5
    Patterson -3.9

    This is imperfect, this will change with time, the minute totals for some is very small and we will generally get better information as the season progresses.... but I think its time we start questioning these 'reps' players have been given and if its time to start changing some these 'reps'

    The starting line up has a drtg = 101.3 worse than the team and worse than sum of its parts. There is clearly something(s) dragging it down vs what each players usual defense would otherwise be, and its not coming from the bench who is, in its entirety, is outperforming the starters defensively and, ofcourse, don't start.

    This teams bench has been playing excellent defense, even if we only want to qualify it as vs. its peers. The starters less so, even if we again qualify it as vs. its peers.

    (yep... this was the short version )

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  9. #66
    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    Default if we go forward with this team...

    I been reading alot of the thread and I think the wrong questions are being asked. we will make playoffs this year unless something happens which is possible. now lets take a honest look at every position on this roster and figure out what needs to be upgraded.

    point guard ...question is lowry only playing well because its a contract year? alot of people were high on vasquez is it official he is s and needs to be gone by trade deadline or is he just young? prototypical point guard for me is 6'6 vasquez even tho he has the height i dont think csn ever play defense likr lowry is playing now

    shooting guard...can demar ever shot at a high percentage? watchinghim in the baseline pick and roll/ pick and pop option in the near portland comeback gives me pause but he also couldnt finish, turning the rock over on the last play. Does he have it in him to step on someones neck for even letting him get a chance to win the game?

    small forward...is there a better option than ross out there? fields will probably produce numbers as a starter on someones team he will never be a starter here.

    power forward ... lets be real here for a second, amir cant bang and that is a problem for him on this team. pick and roll he is nasty going to the rim but you would never ever be able to tell him get down on the block and own. patterson he is growing on me after watching him in the pick and roll pick and pop ption with demar in portland but in keeping it real aldrige owned the hell out of both our power forwrds. I think here amir is on his way out and we can still improve on the position.

    center...jonas will be the best center in the league in 5 years. get a solid back up.

    I gave you some of my opinions for each position I want to hear yours and how much do we keep of this roster at the end of this season. like i said before we will make playoffs this year but can we win a championship?
    Last edited by grindhouse; Tue Feb 4th, 2014 at 05:35 PM.

  10. #67
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    word is the clips are "itching" to make a deal, with Dudley being at the forefront since his playing time has dipped

    Dudley doesn't make a ton of sense for us, specifically when you look at his contract. But what if you removed part of the log jam? Something involving us getting Bullock?

    I'll let the trade/contract gurus work their magic.
    @jerboat

  11. #68
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    word is the clips are "itching" to make a deal, with Dudley being at the forefront since his playing time has dipped

    Dudley doesn't make a ton of sense for us, specifically when you look at his contract. But what if you removed part of the log jam? Something involving us getting Bullock?

    I'll let the trade/contract gurus work their magic.
    Dudley has been awful this year.. he's making about $4M per year for another 3 years (including this year). Really liked him in Phoenix and always considered him a glue guy like Fields was supposed to be. LAC is $2M in luxury tax, so I'm sure they wouldn't want to take too much money back.. I would definitely consider a Novak for Dudley swap. Novak is a bit cheaper for them so that helps. Novak is useless on our team and if Dudley continues to suck its not really that big a deal honestly (we add about $1M to our salary commitments for the next 2 years).

    Dudley could also replace Salmons as the backup wing if Salmons gets traded or waived next year.

  12. #69
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I don't actually want Dudley i just want the warlord MU to pry Bullock away from them like a trained assassin
    @jerboat

  13. #70
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    word is the clips are "itching" to make a deal, with Dudley being at the forefront since his playing time has dipped

    Dudley doesn't make a ton of sense for us, specifically when you look at his contract. But what if you removed part of the log jam? Something involving us getting Bullock?

    I'll let the trade/contract gurus work their magic.
    Dudley/Bullock/Hollins (or Jamison) for Salmons works.

    Clippers get a solid vet to make a run with this season in Salmons, and his only partially guaranteed contract for next year would be coveted for a team that is in the tax. Dudley takes over a Salmons type role for the Raptors over the next couple of seasons, they pick up an intriguing young player in Bullock, with Hollins being an expiring throw in to make the salaries match.

  14. #71
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Dudley/Bullock/Hollins (or Jamison) for Salmons works.

    Clippers get a solid vet to make a run with this season in Salmons, and his only partially guaranteed contract for next year would be coveted for a team that is in the tax. Dudley takes over a Salmons type role for the Raptors over the next couple of seasons, they pick up an intriguing young player in Bullock, with Hollins being an expiring throw in to make the salaries match.
    I'm not sure i want to take on anymore contract mish mashes though. I think we need to save what room we have to really go after a difference maker. Whether they mesh perfectly with the team or we pick up a superstar, I don't think it's worth taking on long contracts through trades right now.

  15. #72
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure i want to take on anymore contract mish mashes though. I think we need to save what room we have to really go after a difference maker. Whether they mesh perfectly with the team or we pick up a superstar, I don't think it's worth taking on long contracts through trades right now.
    Fair enough, and I'd actually probably agree. I was just bored and wanted to come up with a plausible trade scenario since ceez asked for one.

  16. #73
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    Dudley for Novak, straight up. It works for salary and is better for us since Dudley expires one year earlier. The Clippers wanted Dudley for basically one thing, three-point shooting, and Dudley isn't giving them that and Novak can. We turn a piece we're barely using into a guy who needs a change of scenery, was amazing right up until he went to the Clippers and who can be our third wing.

  17. #74
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Dudley for Novak, straight up. It works for salary and is better for us since Dudley expires one year earlier. The Clippers wanted Dudley for basically one thing, three-point shooting, and Dudley isn't giving them that and Novak can. We turn a piece we're barely using into a guy who needs a change of scenery, was amazing right up until he went to the Clippers and who can be our third wing.
    Dudley's third year is a player option. So the length of the contract might be similar to Novak's.

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