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Thread: Looking ahead: what position(s) needs upgrading?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Truth is, pretty much none of the starting five have shown that they should be kept if something better comes along. I would say that Ross has shown the biggest one year improvement, since he was so shit last year. If he improves as much next year he is a keeper. JV has improved, and if he shows the same level of improvement next year, he is a keeper. Lowry...nuff said. With DeMar, it's consistency. He has had spells of 6-8 games where he has looked like a world beater, then he regresses. Amir seems the most consistent, barring the previous stretch of games when he was dealing with something. And his numbers are adequate for a starting 4.

    Maybe you look to seriously upgrade the bench...get the guys at the 6th, 7th and 8th spots in the rotation to be significantly better. Even in the ano team can play the starting 5 for 48 minutes for 7 games. It might be easier and cheaper to upgrade the next 3 or 4 spots on the bench. Instead of giving max money to a couple of starters, spread that 10-12 million/year shoring up the bench positions.

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  3. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Truth is, pretty much none of the starting five have shown that they should be kept if something better comes along. I would say that Ross has shown the biggest one year improvement, since he was so shit last year. If he improves as much next year he is a keeper. JV has improved, and if he shows the same level of improvement next year, he is a keeper. Lowry...nuff said. With DeMar, it's consistency. He has had spells of 6-8 games where he has looked like a world beater, then he regresses. Amir seems the most consistent, barring the previous stretch of games when he was dealing with something. And his numbers are adequate for a starting 4.

    Maybe you look to seriously upgrade the bench...get the guys at the 6th, 7th and 8th spots in the rotation to be significantly better. Even in the ano team can play the starting 5 for 48 minutes for 7 games. It might be easier and cheaper to upgrade the next 3 or 4 spots on the bench. Instead of giving max money to a couple of starters, spread that 10-12 million/year shoring up the bench positions.
    Well said, and great point actually that maybe it is more worth looking at how to upgrade your bench instead of starting 5 as they have proved already that they can hold their own against any NBA team. Cheaper and wiser.
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  4. #43
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    BTW, Jonas is the starting anchor at C for the 5th best defence in the league. For someone so young, becoming a defensive presence first is what I value much more highly than a refined offence. Watch for Jonas to become a great two-way player as he matures.
    except he is not the anchor, Amir is.

    I think Jonas has a future in the NBA, will improve, and will be a highly productive player, offensively and defensively - but right now he is the worst defender not only in the starting line up, but also of all those who play regular minutes.

    Right now this defense is very good despite him, but not with him or because of him.

  5. #44
    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    except he is not the anchor, Amir is.

    I think Jonas has a future in the NBA, will improve, and will be a highly productive player, offensively and defensively - but right now he is the worst defender not only in the starting line up, but also of all those who play regular minutes.

    Right now this defense is very good despite him, but not with him or because of him.
    Well Pek had only six rebounds last game. Give him at LEAST small props, because naming him THE WORST DEFENDER doesn't make you look reasonable.
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  6. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    Well Pek had only six rebounds last game. Give him at LEAST small props, because naming him THE WORST DEFENDER doesn't make you look reasonable.
    why is me thinking him being the worst defender of those who play regular minutes on this team make me "not look reasonable"?

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    why is me thinking him being the worst defender of those who play regular minutes on this team make me "not look reasonable"?
    Because you don't back it up, especially when you are saying that Vasquez is better defender than him.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    SF. DD gone, Ross to the 2, new guy at the 3.
    Same here.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  9. #48
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    Because you don't back it up, especially when you are saying that Vasquez is better defender than him.


    Oh the irony......

    Well since you feel I need to "back it up"

    Val has the worst drtg of all players who play regular minutes. Has the worst drtg of all players who play regular minutes since Gay trade. Has the worst drtg in the starting line up. Has the worst defensive on/off rating of all players who play regular minutes.

    *all this information available at NBA.com, and 82games.com

    Your turn at being 'reasonable'.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post


    Oh the irony......

    Well since you feel I need to "back it up"

    Val has the worst drtg of all players who play regular minutes. Has the worst drtg of all players who play regular minutes since Gay trade. Has the worst drtg in the starting line up. Has the worst defensive on/off rating of all players who play regular minutes.

    *all this information available at NBA.com, and 82games.com

    Your turn at being 'reasonable'.
    Well Im here not to say that you are an miserable person, whos wrong and subjective. I get it and you backed it up, thats all I was asking. There wont be any "turns" here, its just that hes a young guy who usually passes my eye test and I watch Raptors games so I feel that I can argue. It's a opinion and thats your opinion and that's fine I guess its reasonable. Its just that it didnt sound like that when you called him the worst defender out of 9 guys rotation we have. No one's right here, no one's wrong.
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  11. #50
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    except he is not the anchor, Amir is.

    I think Jonas has a future in the NBA, will improve, and will be a highly productive player, offensively and defensively - but right now he is the worst defender not only in the starting line up, but also of all those who play regular minutes.

    Right now this defense is very good despite him, but not with him or because of him.
    I disagree.

    http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingD...&sortOrder=ASC

    Using the NBA Stats default screen for rim protection, Val is 16th out of 46 bigs. As a 21 year old sophomore, no less.

    Off/on DRatings are convoluted by lineups and opposition (starters vs bench), but of the 5 worst lineups that have played 15 minutes together this season, here are the bigs involved:
    138.0 - Hansbrough, Amir
    120.6 - Patterson, Amir
    114.3 - Patterson, Val
    109.8 - Patterson, Amir
    109.3 - Amir, Novak/Gay

    According to synergy, on PPP Val is 76th overall defensively and 21st in post up situations in the entire league. Vasquez with the Raps is 282nd overall.

    Val still has a long way to go to improve his help D, but he's nowhere near the worst defender among the regulars. Vasquez is easily worse, and Demar (while improved) still doesn't inspire a ton of confidence.
    Last edited by Scraptor; Sat Jan 18th, 2014 at 12:10 PM. Reason: Bbref.com and Nba.com d ratings do not agree.

  12. #51
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    except he is not the anchor, Amir is.

    I think Jonas has a future in the NBA, will improve, and will be a highly productive player, offensively and defensively - but right now he is the worst defender not only in the starting line up, but also of all those who play regular minutes.

    Right now this defense is very good despite him, but not with him or because of him.
    I think is is easier to teach defense than it is offense, since the skill set is simpler. JV has the size, willingness, athletic ability and footspeed to be a very good defender. He just has to refine his role, his positioning and his attention to the scouting reports as well as continue to gain strength in the off-season. Nature will take care of increased size. I believe he will add 10-15 pounds over the course of the next couple of years. I suspect that we will see significant improvement in his D over this season, let alone between this season and next.

  13. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I think is is easier to teach defense than it is offense, since the skill set is simpler. JV has the size, willingness, athletic ability and footspeed to be a very good defender. He just has to refine his role, his positioning and his attention to the scouting reports as well as continue to gain strength in the off-season. Nature will take care of increased size. I believe he will add 10-15 pounds over the course of the next couple of years. I suspect that we will see significant improvement in his D over this season, let alone between this season and next.
    I'm not at all doubting he will improve. This was directly about him anchoring this team's top 5 D

    I disagree.

    http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingD...&sortOrder=ASC

    Using the NBA Stats default screen for rim protection, Val is 16th out of 46 bigs. As a 21 year old sophomore, no less.

    Off/on DRatings are convoluted by lineups and opposition (starters vs bench), but of the 5 worst lineups that have played 15 minutes together this season, here are the bigs involved:
    138.0 - Hansbrough, Amir
    120.6 - Patterson, Amir
    114.3 - Patterson, Val
    109.8 - Patterson, Amir
    109.3 - Amir, Novak/Gay

    According to synergy, on PPP Val is 76th overall defensively and 21st in post up situations in the entire league. Vasquez with the Raps is 282nd overall.

    Val still has a long way to go to improve his help D, but he's nowhere near the worst defender among the regulars. Vasquez is easily worse, and Demar (while improved) still doesn't inspire a ton of confidence.
    first off I didn't present just on/off data, I used net drtg vs the team aswell. Not only for the season, but since the trade.

    secondly where he ranks against the league in any stat or another, has nothing to do with 'this team'

    Third '15 minute' lineups is so small its irrelevant, as is just selecting the bigs involved in those line ups (I'll point out NONE of those 'worst' line ups include Vasquez, they all include Lowry)

    Finally, the synergy information you have is individual situations, if we are talking D, we aren't just talking individual situations, and again sample matters. Just like on/off is 'convoluted' by line ups, so is synergy convoluted by match ups, line ups, samples, and definitions.

    Let's not forget Bargnani was a top 10 1 on 1 defender on a points per possession basis, #2 among big men in opponents eFG% - but still constantly demolishes a team's defense.

    I have no problems with someone disagreeing (calling me 'unreasonable' is another thing but thats neither here nor there), and I don't think the stats are perfect. But I think right now Val is not the reason this teams D - its been the great D by the bench vs the opposing teams and, more than anything, the dominant defense by Amir. Who, I think anyways, should be in the running for DPOY right now (even if he won't win it).
    Last edited by Craiger; Sat Jan 18th, 2014 at 12:51 PM.

  14. #53
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    except he is not the anchor, Amir is.

    I think Jonas has a future in the NBA, will improve, and will be a highly productive player, offensively and defensively - but right now he is the worst defender not only in the starting line up, but also of all those who play regular minutes.

    Right now this defense is very good despite him, but not with him or because of him.
    Amir is a great defender and is definitely better than Val. Val also still makes a lot of silly fouls and youngin' mistakes (Amir went through this phase too). But my point is that the Centre position is understood to be the most important position defensively , and Val is the starting centre for the 5th best defence in the league.

    You can make an argument that it is inspite of Val, but defence is a team game and each position needs to play its roles for it to work. Since the C role has the largest role on D, for Val, he has been playing the role well enough NOT to become a negative defensively. This is what matters to me. We can be top 5 defensively with Val at C. Many promising centres lack the defensive fundamentals and couldn't anchor a top-5 defence. The fact that Val can, in his sophomore season, is highly promising.
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    Amir is a top 8 PF in the league. How can you guys think we need upgrade in PF position ?

  16. #55
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    Amir is a top 8 PF in the league. How can you guys think we need upgrade in PF position ?
    Because we don't have a good backup C or PF, which Amir can gather 30+ minutes a night playing.

    Love - Val - Amir is just the best front-line I can ask for.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Because we don't have a good backup C or PF, which Amir can gather 30+ minutes a night playing.

    Love - Val - Amir is just the best front-line I can ask for.
    Kevin Love coming to Toronto !!! You must be dreaming ...

  18. #57
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    Kevin Love coming to Toronto !!! You must be dreaming ...
    Obviously its conjecture, but its still a possibility.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

  19. #58
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    why is me thinking him being the worst defender of those who play regular minutes on this team make me "not look reasonable"?
    Because DD is the worst defender of those who play regular minutes

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'm not at all doubting he will improve. This was directly about him anchoring this team's top 5 D



    first off I didn't present just on/off data, I used net drtg vs the team aswell. Not only for the season, but since the trade.

    secondly where he ranks against the league in any stat or another, has nothing to do with 'this team'

    Third '15 minute' lineups is so small its irrelevant, as is just selecting the bigs involved in those line ups (I'll point out NONE of those 'worst' line ups include Vasquez, they all include Lowry)

    Finally, the synergy information you have is individual situations, if we are talking D, we aren't just talking individual situations, and again sample matters. Just like on/off is 'convoluted' by line ups, so is synergy convoluted by match ups, line ups, samples, and definitions.

    Let's not forget Bargnani was a top 10 1 on 1 defender on a points per possession basis, #2 among big men in opponents eFG% - but still constantly demolishes a team's defense.

    I have no problems with someone disagreeing (calling me 'unreasonable' is another thing but thats neither here nor there), and I don't think the stats are perfect. But I think right now Val is not the reason this teams D - its been the great D by the bench vs the opposing teams and, more than anything, the dominant defense by Amir. Who, I think anyways, should be in the running for DPOY right now (even if he won't win it).
    I don't disagree that Amir is the main man and the anchor. But I think to say that Val is the worst defender of the regulars is pretty ridiculous.

    The fact that Val is ranked so highly for rim protection shows how he helps erase a lot of mistakes by the frontcourt. That's why when we take him out and go small at the end of games we tend to lose more. Amir is great but he can't do it alone.

    There is a reason Vasquez, Patterson, and Demar have reps as bad defenders. The team defense benefits immensely from having guy like Lowry and Amir (and now Ross) tighten things up. Not to mention that if Vasquez and Patterson had to play opposing starters they'd get their Drtgs mauled pretty quick.

    Start a team of Vasquez, Demar, Salmons, Patterson, and Val and I think you'd change your tune pretty quick as to who is the worst defender of the bunch.

  21. #60
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    Vasquez is infuriating to watch. Pretending to run out to the perimeter but running to the side furthest from the rim, giving too much space to jump shooters, missing assignments...combine that with the ridiculous, nonchalant passes that a blind person could intercept -- he might as well just hand the ball to the opposition sometimes. For the Raptors to get anywhere in the playoffs they need a better option than him.

    Sadly, he's light years better than the mish-mash rig-a-ma-roll he replaced. Getting either a pass first responsible backup, or an efficient scoring PG should be priority #1.

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