Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 79

Thread: Stuck in the middle !!!

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,957
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I don't envy the position MU is in, but trust he will stick to his plan of continuous improvement for the future.
    Masai hasn't earned that trust with me yet. The unloading of Bargnani and Gay were nice, but I'm still in a wait-and-see approach (much like Masai's approach with the Raptors) before putting my faith in his hands.

    I feel like he's already dropped the ball by not trading Lowry 6 weeks ago.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    500
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The other issue is that Toronto is currently competing for playoff spots against teams that have been dealing with significant injuries throughout the season, while Toronto has remained healthy (starters haven't missed a single game).

    Chicago - injured Rose, traded Deng
    Brooklyn - injured Williams, injured Lopez
    Atlanta - injured Horford
    NY - injured Chandler, injured MWP, injured Felton
    Washington - injured Beal
    Charlotte - injured Jefferson, injured Walker, injured MKG
    Milwaukee - injured Ilyasova, injured Sanders, injured Knight, injured Henson



    A healthy Toronto team needs the entire rotation playing at peak performance levels in order to compete for the playoffs, against teams that are riddled with injuries. There's legitimate reason to at least wonder whether their success (ie: #3-6 seed) this season is sustainable or not.

    I don't envy the position MU is in, but trust he will stick to his plan of continuous improvement for the future.
    With all due respect to this point, it makes sense but doesn't have a lot of legs, and I find it to be a very Toronto mentality i.e. that even when we're good, it's because everyone else is actually bad so we are just rising to the top.

    With the exception of Chicago and maybe Atlanta, we have no reason to think that any of these teams would ACTUALLY be better if they were healthy. I can come up with a bunch of reasons why these teams are actually bad, Watch:

    Chicago - lack scoring, boozer is getting old and jimmy butler is unproven as a starting 3
    Brooklyn - lopez has been injured most of his career, D-will has been on the decline for a while, rookie head coach in Jason Kidd who is in over his head
    Atlanta - young and inexperienced guards, and mostly score in transition. not built for winning close defensive games
    NY - lack depth, discipline, and have an offensive focused game which does poorly against defensive minded teams especially on the road (plus they have bargnani)
    Washington - lack any veteran leadership, and don't defend consistently
    Charlotte -they struggle offensively and don't have an identity on the offensive end
    Milwaukee - seriously? , ok their core is either too young, or too untalented.

    My point is, I'm not saying that we don't have to play well but this idea that we have to play at "peak performance" in order to stay ahead of milwaukee the next few years is just incorrect.

    What we should think as fans is:

    The East is actually up for grabs. The Heat are coming to the end of their road. D-rose will never be the same. and there is no reason to think that this group, with some added depth, cannot continue to improve and stay ahead of these teams, who have actually regressed

    The Seattle Seahawks, before the season started looked at each other in the locker room and said "why not us?"

    We need to start thinking the same thing

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    6,740
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    "Why not us?"

    "Well we just lost to the Lakers, Celtics and Bobcats soooo..."

    "Fair point, maybe next year"
    @jerboat

  4. Like iblastoff liked this post
  5. #24
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,286
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    With all due respect to this point, it makes sense but doesn't have a lot of legs, and I find it to be a very Toronto mentality i.e. that even when we're good, it's because everyone else is actually bad so we are just rising to the top.

    With the exception of Chicago and maybe Atlanta, we have no reason to think that any of these teams would ACTUALLY be better if they were healthy. I can come up with a bunch of reasons why these teams are actually bad, Watch:

    Chicago - lack scoring, boozer is getting old and jimmy butler is unproven as a starting 3
    Brooklyn - lopez has been injured most of his career, D-will has been on the decline for a while, rookie head coach in Jason Kidd who is in over his head
    Atlanta - young and inexperienced guards, and mostly score in transition. not built for winning close defensive games
    NY - lack depth, discipline, and have an offensive focused game which does poorly against defensive minded teams especially on the road (plus they have bargnani)
    Washington - lack any veteran leadership, and don't defend consistently
    Charlotte -they struggle offensively and don't have an identity on the offensive end
    Milwaukee - seriously? , ok their core is either too young, or too untalented.

    My point is, I'm not saying that we don't have to play well but this idea that we have to play at "peak performance" in order to stay ahead of milwaukee the next few years is just incorrect.

    What we should think as fans is:

    The East is actually up for grabs. The Heat are coming to the end of their road. D-rose will never be the same. and there is no reason to think that this group, with some added depth, cannot continue to improve and stay ahead of these teams, who have actually regressed

    The Seattle Seahawks, before the season started looked at each other in the locker room and said "why not us?"

    We need to start thinking the same thing
    I wasn't saying the Raptors had plateaued, but I don't believe for a second that this roster is a sustainable #3/4 seed in the EC going forward.

    They are currently in a 3-way tie for 4th place in the EC. They are the only team that hasn't had a starter miss significant time due to injury, and they are depending on 2 players (Lowry & DeRozan) playing at all-star levels, 2 sophomore players taking big steps forward (JV & Ross - the one sustainable factor) and 2 bigs (Amir & PP) playing at career high levels, in order to win.

    Whether you look at how they are winning or what the rest of the EC looks like (without even factoring in the number of young up-and-coming teams that will add a high draft pick to their rosters next season), I'm not sure how you can't at least be a little wary that their success may not be sustainable.

    Re-signing Lowry and other important rotation players (ie: PP, TH & GV) would result in the team once again being capped-out. That leaves organic growth (Valanciunas & Ross) and the addition of a late mid-1st round pick as the only options for improving the team, aside from some degree of retooling. I'm not sure how much higher this roster's ceiling can get, realistically speaking.


    As for the point about the Seahawks, many NFL experts picked them in the preseason to be the NFC's representative in the Superbowl, including ESPN. Not exactly the same as the Raptors.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jan 21st, 2014 at 11:43 AM.

  6. #25
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    With all due respect to this point, it makes sense but doesn't have a lot of legs, and I find it to be a very Toronto mentality i.e. that even when we're good, it's because everyone else is actually bad so we are just rising to the top.
    This opinion does have some merit though, doesn't it? We're 20-20, and in any other year, a .500 record would have gotten you the..

    8th seed in 2013.
    9th seed in 2012.
    7th seed in 2011.
    Tied for 8th seed in 2010.
    7th seed in 2009.

    I don't think you can get too caught up in the team's current standing (home court in the playoffs!), and ignore some of the context that has allowed it to happen (crippling injuries all over the conference with the Raptors enjoying the best stretch of health in virtually the entire league; unprecedented amount of teams employing full-season tank jobs). In pretty much any other season we'd be exactly in the spots that we're supposedly trying to avoid.
    Last edited by Fully; Tue Jan 21st, 2014 at 12:04 PM.

  7. #26
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,286
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    This opinion does have some merit though, doesn't it? We're 20-20, and in any other year, a .500 record would have gotten you the..

    8th seed in 2013.
    9th seed in 2012.
    7th seed in 2011.
    Tied for 8th seed in 2010.
    7th seed in 2009.

    I don't think you can get too caught up in the team's current standing (home court in the playoffs!), and ignore some of the context that has allowed it to happen (crippling injuries all over the conference with the Raptors enjoying the best stretch of health in virtually the entire league; unprecedented amount of teams employing full-season tank jobs). In pretty much any other season we'd be exactly in the spots that we're supposedly trying to avoid.
    Thanks for providing that context.

    I also would bet that MU is evaluating the Raptors against the entire league, not only the EC. Given the strength of the WC, especially relative to the EC in recent years, a .500 record would leave the team firmly entrenched in "no man's land"; first round EC playoff fodder or #12-14 draft pick at best.

  8. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,198
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    With all due respect to this point, it makes sense but doesn't have a lot of legs, and I find it to be a very Toronto mentality i.e. that even when we're good, it's because everyone else is actually bad so we are just rising to the top.

    With the exception of Chicago and maybe Atlanta, we have no reason to think that any of these teams would ACTUALLY be better if they were healthy. I can come up with a bunch of reasons why these teams are actually bad, Watch:

    Chicago - lack scoring, boozer is getting old and jimmy butler is unproven as a starting 3
    Brooklyn - lopez has been injured most of his career, D-will has been on the decline for a while, rookie head coach in Jason Kidd who is in over his head
    Atlanta - young and inexperienced guards, and mostly score in transition. not built for winning close defensive games
    NY - lack depth, discipline, and have an offensive focused game which does poorly against defensive minded teams especially on the road (plus they have bargnani)
    Washington - lack any veteran leadership, and don't defend consistently
    Charlotte -they struggle offensively and don't have an identity on the offensive end
    Milwaukee - seriously? , ok their core is either too young, or too untalented.

    My point is, I'm not saying that we don't have to play well but this idea that we have to play at "peak performance" in order to stay ahead of milwaukee the next few years is just incorrect.

    What we should think as fans is:

    The East is actually up for grabs. The Heat are coming to the end of their road. D-rose will never be the same. and there is no reason to think that this group, with some added depth, cannot continue to improve and stay ahead of these teams, who have actually regressed

    The Seattle Seahawks, before the season started looked at each other in the locker room and said "why not us?"

    We need to start thinking the same thing
    We have no reason to think that Knicks would be better with Tyson healthy all year, Nets with Brook/DWill/AK, maybe even Atlanta with Horford? That makes no sense.
    Last edited by BobLoblaw; Tue Jan 21st, 2014 at 12:24 PM. Reason: didn't notice the Bulls part

  9. #28
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Medicine Hat, AB
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Thanks for providing that context.

    I also would bet that MU is evaluating the Raptors against the entire league, not only the EC. Given the strength of the WC, especially relative to the EC in recent years, a .500 record would leave the team firmly entrenched in "no man's land"; first round EC playoff fodder or #12-14 draft pick at best.
    This. Also adding to Fully's point as well: In a regular year with some of those stars on their rosters (Brooklyn, Chicago) would the Raps even be at .500? Some of those wins turn to losses I would bet.

  10. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    500
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I wasn't saying the Raptors had plateaued, but I don't believe for a second that this roster is a sustainable #3/4 seed in the EC going forward.

    They are currently in a 3-way tie for 4th place in the EC. They are the only team that hasn't had a starter miss significant time due to injury, and they are depending on 2 players (Lowry & DeRozan) playing at all-star levels, 2 sophomore players taking big steps forward (JV & Ross - the one sustainable factor) and 2 bigs (Amir & PP) playing at career high levels, in order to win.

    Whether you look at how they are winning or what the rest of the EC looks like (without even factoring in the number of young up-and-coming teams that will add a high draft pick to their rosters next season), I'm not sure how you can't at least be a little wary that their success may not be sustainable.

    Re-signing Lowry and other important rotation players (ie: PP, TH & GV) would result in the team once again being capped-out. That leaves organic growth (Valanciunas & Ross) and the addition of a late mid-1st round pick as the only options for improving the team, aside from some degree of retooling. I'm not sure how much higher this roster's ceiling can get, realistically speaking.


    As for the point about the Seahawks, many NFL experts picked them in the preseason to be the NFC's representative in the Superbowl, including ESPN. Not exactly the same as the Raptors.
    Ok.... so we are basically in agreement then. I am definitely not 100% confident, but my point is I see just as many reasons why we CAN sustain this as much as we CAN'T

    and your seashawks thing was a cheapshot haha obviously i was just talking about the mentality and not making a comparison

  11. #30
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    881
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Thanks for providing that context.

    I also would bet that MU is evaluating the Raptors against the entire league, not only the EC. Given the strength of the WC, especially relative to the EC in recent years, a .500 record would leave the team firmly entrenched in "no man's land"; first round EC playoff fodder or #12-14 draft pick at best.
    Hold on a sec, CalRaps and others. I think everybody is severely twisting this notion of finishing .500 this season as being the same as being stuck there forever. And conversely, finishing bottom 5 & drafting top 5 as the start of a consistently upward climb and staying there for a decade.

    Do people really think MU is going to sit on his butt for the next 5 years and make no changes to the roster. Do they also think that he has no flexibility to make changes? Now, obviously that's ludicrous (... no ludacris, btw). In fact, just since the Gay trade, we have acquired or significantly increased the value of at least 4 tradeable assets: DD, Lowry, Ross and 2Pat. While at the same time, increasing salary flexibility. The key decision here remains Lowry - he cannot overpay him, or he will be an overpriced asset which diminishes his trade value, that only goes down as he ages.

    MU is getting paid $5M/year to improve the roster, by all means necessary. If MU is as good as advertised then he should be one of the GMs who steals those top 5 draft talent who inevitably drops every year to the late 1st round or even 2nd round. Supposedly, this draft is deep, so it should be even easier to steal one of those guys. Lots of experts even suggesting that both Wiggins and Parker might stay another year. Wiggins, in particular, just does not look ready to compete at the NBA level. I actually hope Wiggins does stay another year and work on his game.
    Last edited by golden; Tue Jan 21st, 2014 at 12:51 PM.

  12. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,189
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Masai hasn't earned that trust with me yet. The unloading of Bargnani and Gay were nice, but I'm still in a wait-and-see approach (much like Masai's approach with the Raptors) before putting my faith in his hands.

    I feel like he's already dropped the ball by not trading Lowry 6 weeks ago.
    I was thinking along the same lines when Lowry started picking up his game and it became obvious that he was the catalyst behind the teams improvemnt. I even had this thought that if BC were here Lowry would have been locked up for 4 years before the season even started, at a better price than what we would have to pay to keep him now. However, I think MU has to gamble and wait until Lowry becomes a free agent now or else over pay him.

    Lowry might not be able to keep up this level of play which would drive down his asking price, Lowry might not receive as many offers as you would think considering most teams already have quality starting PG's in place. Would the ones that don't have one in a place like Orlando for example, rather draft a PG and develop him as opposed to signing Lowry to big bucks and not have a competetive roster around him?

    Lots of factors that could push Lowry's asking price down, so perhaps it's worth the gamble for MU to wait as opposed to paying him now for what would assuredly be big bucks now.

  13. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    500
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    This opinion does have some merit though, doesn't it? We're 20-20, and in any other year, a .500 record would have gotten you the..

    8th seed in 2013.
    9th seed in 2012.
    7th seed in 2011.
    Tied for 8th seed in 2010.
    7th seed in 2009.

    I don't think you can get too caught up in the team's current standing (home court in the playoffs!), and ignore some of the context that has allowed it to happen (crippling injuries all over the conference with the Raptors enjoying the best stretch of health in virtually the entire league; unprecedented amount of teams employing full-season tank jobs). In pretty much any other season we'd be exactly in the spots that we're supposedly trying to avoid.
    All i'm saying is that there are equally valid explanations as to why we are actually a good team, and we can make logical arguments as to the vast differences of these teams which you listed, namely, that the teams were based on the success of Bargnani, Hedo, Rudy Gay, Alan Anderson, etc.

    As far as whether we would be in the 8th spot in any other season, my whole point is that is also up for debate. We do just as well against good and bad teams, and play down to our competition. It's possible we could have still been a 45-47 win team. (We also could have been in dead last by this logic).

    I'm just saying it's a pointless argument to make and no one should plan the future of the team around "what would have happened if the east was good" as opposed to working with what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING

  14. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,095
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Hold on a sec, CalRaps and others. I think everybody is severely twisting this notion of finishing .500 this season as being the same as being stuck there forever. And conversely, finishing bottom 5 & drafting top 5 as the start of a consistently upward climb and staying there for a decade.
    No, those are the only two options. He either tanks this year and the Raps get a superstar or else he keeps the same team together for 5 years. Case closed. Judge everything he does based on decisions he makes RIGHT NOW. There are no other feasible alternatives or even options within the realm of possibility. Everything must happen by tomorrow night and it must fit entirely within one of the two above narratives. Otherwise, the universe will collapse in on itself.

  15. Like golden liked this post
  16. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,794
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Right now, this team is destined to end up in no man's land if they keep this group together.

    You want to call yourself a playoff team. You gotta beat teams like LAL, Boston and Charlotte. They lost to Charlotte 3x already this season. And today, the Bobcats beat them without Kemba Walker. Charlotte's best player.

    I also don't buy all the stupid excuses like, they're tired. 7 games in 10 days. Blah blah blah. They didn't looked tired to me. They had a 19 pt lead against the Lakers yesterday in the 2nd period but they just gave it away in 2 mins. They had a 15 pt lead in the 3rd period. And they just gave it away in 2 mins.

    Today, they just kept settling for 3's and long 2's. Their D on Jefferson was pathetic specially in the 1st quarter. They just lost fair and square. No excuses.
    I cannot disagree with this analysis. Raptors are an inconsistent team period. What happened this past week does not happen to good teams. I am also not thrilled by DD's play and body language recently.

  17. #35
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    500
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    We have no reason to think that Knicks would be better with Tyson healthy all year, Nets with Brook/DWill/AK, maybe even Atlanta with Horford? That makes no sense.
    Im not saying that they wouldn't be better, I'm saying that a healthy Tyson Chandler doesn't automatically equal a better team than the raptors (which they are proving right now since the knicks are still terrible and he's been playing the last couple of months)

    Same goes for NJ and ATL....Assuming people are healthy does not mean that the team plays well together, etc.

    I also just want to add, again, that this conversation is irrelevant. Brook Lopez gets injured all the time, for example. So why have a conversation about a team that has a healthy brook lopez for years to come? That's less likely than what has actually happened

  18. #36
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,315
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I am not at all impressed with the mentality of the team right now. We should be 23-17, not 20-20, and that is a significant difference. The boys dropped the ball this week. They had their chance to create some space in the atlantic at least, and those were games they NEEDED to win, not should, would or could. I thought they were on to something and then things get a little 'easier' schedule wise and they completely shit the bed. Is this simply physical? Maybe guys are getting tired and/or hurt, but I'm not buying that. They have failed to show the mental and emotional toughness necessary to maintain the focus, intensity and determination that put them in the position they were in prior to the Boston game.

    The next 5-10 games will really show what this team is about? Can they bounce back, can they sustain winning again? Let's hope they can get back to that underdog mentality and take something from that seahawks team. Oh, and we also need to find a better way to score as teams have adjusted to the 2 or 3 sets that the Raps run.

  19. #37
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,794
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    No, those are the only two options. He either tanks this year and the Raps get a superstar or else he keeps the same team together for 5 years. Case closed. Judge everything he does based on decisions he makes RIGHT NOW. There are no other feasible alternatives or even options within the realm of possibility. Everything must happen by tomorrow night and it must fit entirely within one of the two above narratives. Otherwise, the universe will collapse in on itself.
    Please explain to me how the universe will collapse. A physics refresher would be nice.

  20. #38
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    491
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Do people really think MU is going to sit on his butt for the next 5 years and make no changes to the roster. Do they also think that he has not flexibility to make changes? Now, obviously that's ludicrous (... no ludacris, btw). In fact, just since the Gay trade, we have acquired or significantly increased the value of at least 4 tradeable assets: DD, Lowry, Ross and 2Pat. While at the same time, increasing salary flexibility. The key decision here remains Lowry - he cannot overpay him, or he will be an overpriced asset which diminishes his trade value, that only goes down as he ages.
    1. No, I don't think MU will sit on his butt and make no changes over the next 5 years. But...

    2. I also don't think he has the flexibility (right now) to make the changes that will need to be made. Partly because...

    3. You're right, the key decision remains Lowry. If they keep him, bye-bye flexibility. If they trade him now, as an expiring contract, he might bring something back at lesser salary and provide a bit more flex. But if they hold onto him, they're paying $10-12M/year for him over the next 3-5 years. Bye-bye flex, and now you're REALLY hitching your wagon to this 'core', so you better be pretty damn confident that Derozan, Lowry, Val, Amir and Ross can improve A LOT, else All Star Weekend 2016 might be all about what could have been for Toronto...

    As for the value of assets like Derozan, Patterson, Lowry and Ross? I think you're overvaluing them all. Lowry is not a trade asset if it doesn't happen this season. Derozan's value will rise and fall with the team's W/L record, since he's the "top dog". Ross probably has some value. Patterson, too, if we didn't also have to, like Lowry, re-sign HIM in the off-season, too.

    Things are not all that rosy on the "flexibility" front, at least not right now.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  21. Like CalgaryRapsFan liked this post
  22. #39
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    881
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    No, those are the only two options. He either tanks this year and the Raps get a superstar or else he keeps the same team together for 5 years. Case closed. Judge everything he does based on decisions he makes RIGHT NOW. There are no other feasible alternatives or even options within the realm of possibility. Everything must happen by tomorrow night and it must fit entirely within one of the two above narratives. Otherwise, the universe will collapse in on itself.
    Pretty much ^^

    This is what's known as 'The Thread Closer". Nothing more to see here folks. Move along....

  23. #40
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    500
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Pretty much ^^

    This is what's known as 'The Thread Closer". Nothing more to see here folks. Move along....
    haha!

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •