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Thread: Stuck in the middle !!!

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Lowry for Shumpert, Douglas Jr, and a First.

    EDIT: Hardaway jr!
    Last edited by enlightenment; Wed Jan 22nd, 2014 at 09:51 PM.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post


    I can only smile.
    Because MU is supposed to be the saviour.

    And really, he makes all the same mistakes BC made.


    Its funny.
    What mistakes do you feel MU has made this year?

  3. #63
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Talk about stuck in the MIDDLE!



    The poll for Casey's extension is almost 50/50 and the poll for 50 wins is exactly 50%. This thread is so prophetic! RR is DIVIDED!!!
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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  5. #64
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Lowry for Shumpert, Douglas Jr, and a First.
    Hardaway Jr?

    Not a big Shumpert fan. Seems to have an inconsistent personality and matching game. A pretty good defensive player, but he can just take himself out of a game with bad fouls, or worse, thinking he's an offensive focal point. Can't see him as a long-term piece, and I can see his value declining.

    NY will really struggle to make this deal work. The one rumoured, basically as you have it outlined, is not going to work with cap rules. And the only pieces Masai might want will be on really low salaries, including even expiring vets like Udrih and Martin.

    Basically the easiest way to make a deal work is if the Raps take back Felton. Which would also, I think, make it hard for NY to avoid giving Masai what he wants (clearly Hardaway JR and a future 1st) in return. And Felton is probably a good enough PG to help keep developing players, while also not affecting any plans to pile up losses. His salary is not at all crippling, even though it would last another couple of years assuming he picks up his final year player option.

    Something like

    Lowry + Daye for Felton + Hardaway Jr. + Cole Aldrich (who will be waived) + future 1st round pick

  6. #65
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I don't disagree with any of that. I was just sharing my 2 cents as to why so many people seem impatient with MU, rightfully or wrongfully.

    In addition to what I said in my previous post, I think impatience and curiosity are also leading factors. People heard what MU & TL said about this franchise and their championship aspirations, drew conclusions about the roster on the heels of BC being forced out, heard what MU said about no man's land, and leaped to conclusions from the Bargnani trade, the Gay trade and the Lowry rumors. People just want to find out what MU is truly thinking, what direction he intends to take the team and which players will stay or go... and they want to know NOW!
    Glad you mentioned this. I think that's been a big part of the problem here - TL & MU's own expectation setting. Sure we all want championships, but some fans are obviously jumping to their own conclusions on the specific strategies, tactics and timelines of the path to those rings. I can only speak for myself, but I never get caught up in any of that management rah-rah talk because only 4 of 30 teams can make the conf. finals and only 1 can win it all. So being a long-term elite team is a crapshoot, in itself. Championship talk is nice to hear, but the only thing certain in sports is uncertainty. So, I find it best to ignore what TL/MU say and just take it one game at time.
    Last edited by golden; Tue Jan 21st, 2014 at 08:42 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    If I had to speculate about his next move, MU is trying to bring in a player(s) that can take this current team "over the top". It's not easy to do, and I'm sure MU has multiple contingency plans for how the season takes shape.
    He is collecting assets. Every move he makes has that in mind. He is also not quick to pull the trigger on a trade. The whole Lowry trade speculation is brilliant. The man is asking alot for Lowry. If he doesn't get it, then he doesn't do the trade. Simple as that. Don't throw assets away just to get back whatever you think you can at that time. It has a similar (albeit less significant) feel to his dealing with 'Melo in Denver. Just hold out... Accumulate picks, don't trade picks. Accumulate young talent you develop, don't use them as trade fodder to being in your golden child (ED in the Gay deal). Smart management. Eventually the accumulation of young talent through net-positive moves will yield success. But it will take time.

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    For all of the guys who say that making a championship takes years ....

    Yes, we know that. That is fact that no one can deny. But every step counts. Every move counts. Every opportunity counts. Being stuck in the middle this season and missing on a great drat is a step backward.

    We have been stuck in the middle. This year was suppose to end that. Being stuck in the middle this year is SIMPLY a lost opportunity.

    Every season counts and as we are now, we are missing on this season.

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  10. #68
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    For all of the guys who say that making a championship takes years ....

    Yes, we know that. That is fact that no one can deny. But every step counts. Every move counts. Every opportunity counts. Being stuck in the middle this season and missing on a great drat is a step backward.

    We have been stuck in the middle. This year was suppose to end that. Being stuck in the middle this year is SIMPLY a lost opportunity.

    Every season counts and as we are now, we are missing on this season.
    Well the whole premise of 'being stuck in the middle' is completely false. We have been below middle, post-CB4. In fact, what is true is that the Raptors have INCREASED winning percentage for 4 straight years. Rising, almost like clockwork, since Bosh left:

    2010-11: 0.268
    2011-12: 0.348
    2012-13: 0.415
    2013-14: 0.500

    So, you can also make the argument that the Raptors are actually on a gradual and progressive climb, with the rebuild started by Colangelo, and MU now taking it to the next level (playoffs) & hopefully beyond. That's what the numbers say, anyway.

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  12. #69
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    For all of the guys who say that making a championship takes years ....

    Yes, we know that. That is fact that no one can deny. But every step counts. Every move counts. Every opportunity counts. Being stuck in the middle this season and missing on a great drat is a step backward.

    We have been stuck in the middle. This year was suppose to end that. Being stuck in the middle this year is SIMPLY a lost opportunity.

    Every season counts and as we are now, we are missing on this season.
    I think you are oversimplifying things here. By this logic there are only two possible outcomes for a successful season. 1) beat Miami or Indy this season or, 2) tank for a top5 pick (I still can't believe that losing as much as possible can be considered a successful season, there is something seriously wrong with the way this league operates, no?).

    This suggests that all teams in the East outside of the top2 should be in the second category. Realistically, no team in the East did enough in the previous offseason to achieve #1. Well, many thought Brooklyn had a chance, but many also recognized the possibility it could be the disaster it has been so far.

    The moves MU has made so far were moves in the right direction. Maybe we can't beat the best in the east, and maybe we can't tank, but moving Bargs and Gay were clearly great moves going forward. Everything that needs to be achieved certainly doesn't have to be this season. There is lots of time and moves to be made to keep us out of the middle, you just have to understand that a part of the process, regardless if you are building or rebuilding, is to travel through the middle.

  13. #70
    Raptors Republic Rookie ST1R's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    No, those are the only two options. He either tanks this year and the Raps get a superstar or else he keeps the same team together for 5 years. Case closed. Judge everything he does based on decisions he makes RIGHT NOW. There are no other feasible alternatives or even options within the realm of possibility. Everything must happen by tomorrow night and it must fit entirely within one of the two above narratives. Otherwise, the universe will collapse in on itself.
    LOL loved this. People talk like they know how to predict the future but 99% of them probably thought Wiggins was gonna be the best player in the draft a few months ago. As someone who pays for season tickets, Im not interested in shedding our assets now to get a kid who may or may not be a future superstar. To get bad enough to get a top 5 pick would take years and years to turn around. If teams like San Antonio and Indiana can find talent outside a top 10 pick why cant we? Obviously Colangelo couldnt pick a star if you gave him the first overall pick but maybe Mesai can do better.

  14. #71
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ST1R wrote: View Post
    LOL loved this. People talk like they know how to predict the future but 99% of them probably thought Wiggins was gonna be the best player in the draft a few months ago. As someone who pays for season tickets, Im not interested in shedding our assets now to get a kid who may or may not be a future superstar. To get bad enough to get a top 5 pick would take years and years to turn around. If teams like San Antonio and Indiana can find talent outside a top 10 pick why cant we? Obviously Colangelo couldnt pick a star if you gave him the first overall pick but maybe Mesai can do better.
    By pointing out that you're a season ticket holder, aren't you indirectly acknowledging that you put greater weight on the current season over future ones? There's a bias there.

    Smart management doesn't over-value the current season at the expense of future ones.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Well the whole premise of 'being stuck in the middle' is completely false. We have been below middle, post-CB4. In fact, what is true is that the Raptors have INCREASED winning percentage for 4 straight years. Rising, almost like clockwork, since Bosh left:

    2010-11: 0.268
    2011-12: 0.348
    2012-13: 0.415
    2013-14: 0.500

    So, you can also make the argument that the Raptors are actually on a gradual and progressive climb, with the rebuild started by Colangelo, and MU now taking it to the next level (playoffs) & hopefully beyond. That's what the numbers say, anyway.
    I don't think being stuck in the middle means actually having a 41-41 season ... It means that we are not bad enough to have a very high draft pick that can the franchise around or we are not good enough to become real threat in east.

    Right now, we are stuck in the middle. If MU wants to take us next level, then he needs to make moves.

  16. #73
    Raptors Republic Starter tonious35's Avatar
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    The BAD stuck-in-the MIDDLE: At or over the salary cap for two or more years by multiple over-paid contracts to UNDER-ACHIEVING players that cause your team to lose the majority of games, and your team is in the Eastern Conference that by default make the playoffs and out of the lottery or barely miss the lottery.

    The good 0.500, not in treadmill (or GOOD treading water): Your team is loaded with multiple expiring contracts (at 2014) and some other contracts that have a team option to drop or amnesty next year. The longer and over 7 million dollar contracts are only held by the hardest working or All-Star caliber players that are under 27 years old.

    MU got rid of two contracts that no other team will want to touch because they are locked to players that do not have the work ethic on or off the court that were all over 11 million dollars a year (Bargs: 12 million owed till end of 2014/2015, plays sh$t defense and does not make teammates better...Gay: assumed 19.3 million owed till end of 2014/2015, doesn't try hard enough to All-Star effort). This team WILL now have $13+ million dollars next year, and they might amnesty Fields if necessary, if MU cannot move him. We are not stuck in the middle this year at all.

  17. #74
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    By pointing out that you're a season ticket holder, aren't you indirectly acknowledging that you put greater weight on the current season over future ones? There's a bias there.

    Smart management doesn't over-value the current season at the expense of future ones.
    You have a point about me having bias. But I put great weight on every season anyways as a fan. I understand if you are in Jan. with 8 wins and you just say screw it and trade assets for picks. In that case the writing is on the wall. To purposely make your team into a loser for a shot at at the lottery would be a mistake. We can have all the money in the world to spend but no one wants to come a team that won 20 games. Get some playoff experience and draft smarter in what is a very deep draft.

  18. #75
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote tonious35 wrote: View Post
    ...This team WILL now have $13+ million dollars next year, and they might amnesty Fields if necessary, if MU cannot move him. We are not stuck in the middle this year at all.
    Can't amnesty Fields. He wasn't on the roster when the new CBA was signed. Actually, given another nine months to heal, his elbow might allow him to shoot the ball next season. If he comes back to 80% of his rookie year he will be an asset.

  19. #76
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ST1R wrote: View Post
    You have a point about me having bias. But I put great weight on every season anyways as a fan. I understand if you are in Jan. with 8 wins and you just say screw it and trade assets for picks. In that case the writing is on the wall. To purposely make your team into a loser for a shot at at the lottery would be a mistake. We can have all the money in the world to spend but no one wants to come a team that won 20 games. Get some playoff experience and draft smarter in what is a very deep draft.
    Agree it's too late to tank now. We'll just have to sit back and hope that everything works out for the best.

    Or Masai could simply give us fans a slight indication of which way he's heading, to give us something to talk about
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  20. #77
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Can't amnesty Fields. He wasn't on the roster when the new CBA was signed. Actually, given another nine months to heal, his elbow might allow him to shoot the ball next season. If he comes back to 80% of his rookie year he will be an asset.
    Plus we've already used the amnesty. On Kleiza. The amnesty was a one-time use to help boneheaded moves by GMs. Sadly, we had a number of boneheaded moves.
    your pal,
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  21. #78
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Plus we've already used the amnesty. On Kleiza. The amnesty was a one-time use to help boneheaded moves by GMs. Sadly, we had a number of boneheaded moves.
    Lot of money sitting on the bench in Raptorland.....

  22. #79
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Wouldn't surprise me to hear we're still paying the ghosts of Mourning, Olajuwon and Wilkens....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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