Stuck in the middle !!!

[Nilanka]

Wasn’t NOT trading Lowry for Felton & Shumpert already great decision?

I wouldn't call it a great decision. I'd call it a risky decision.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Ok, Cal, I hear ya, and I thought that slaw ended the thread, lol, but you just raised another major sticking point – with me, anyway.

Why are people acting like MU has done absolutely NOTHING this year? He’s already made one of the biggest trades in the NBA this season. Why can’t people accept that as a significant re-building / re-tooling move? Well, if MU is in wait and see mode, then the other GMs must be back-peddling. And why are so many people (like Tim W.) saying that MU can’t make tough decisions? Wasn’t NOT trading Lowry for Felton & Shumpert already great decision? Do people just want him out there making deals for the sake of making deals and looking busy? That’s Colangelo right there. Personally, I prefer MU to wait until there are attractive deals out there that he can extract maximum value before pulling the trigger. Preparation, patience and timing are critical in any business dealing. Otherwise, dealing from a position of desperation gets you fleeced. I would even prefer him to wait until the summer to decide on re-signing Lowry, because we might be able to find better options at PG, or we could go into tank mode NEXT season, if some of the NCAA freshmen decide not to declare in 2014.

I think there are two reasons for this sort of thinking, both of which sort of fall into the feel of 'unfinished business'.

First, I think most people (NBA experts/insiders, fans and dare I say possibly even MU?) believed the Gay trade was the start of a rebuilding process, designed to reshape this team with the future in mind, while enjoying the residual benefit of tanking this season for a better draft pick. Given the intense Lowry rumors in the wake of the Gay trade, it certainly seemed like the Gay trade had set a process in motion, which has seemingly come to an abrupt halt. The team unexpectedly improved and made a run up the EC standings, which has caused everybody to re-evaluate all options.

Second, despite the team's unexpected success in the post-Gay era, there's still huge uncertainty about what this roster's ceiling is (be it this season or in the future). The team is currently in a 3-way tie for 4th place in an historically weak EC, entrenched in the middle third of the league, seemingly epitomizing the "no man's land" that MU publically said he would absolutely avoid.

The post-Gay win streak and even more recent 3-game losing skid (plus the fact that Lowry is an expiring contract), have only served to reinforce the feeling that this team is at a bit of a crossroads this season, as the trade deadline approaches. Does MU view this team as being in the dreaded "no man's land" as currently constructed? Will MU take advantage of the weak EC and gear up for an unexpected playoff run? Will MU decide to continue the rebuilding process most people thought the Gay trade signaled?

Uncertainty and perhaps apprehension, regardless what side of the playoffs/tank/rebuild/retool debate you might be on, given how closely MU is playing his cards to his chest.

[BallaBalla]

i think its bizarre when the raptors win a few games, all of a sudden theres this inflated sense of worth that we can call other teams terrible. knicks terrible? they went 5-5 in their last stretch, and this was with wins over the spurs, a fully rosted miami and dallas. they beat everyone they were 'supposed' to beat (philly, detroit, no bledsoe suns) with respectable losses to houston, clippers and indiana. charlotte and brooklyn could have gone either way but they lost to both.

compare that to the raptors, who have so far NOT beat the teams they were 'supposed' to win against. our only main achievement in january was beating the pacers at home. no one expected us to beat miami and indiana again (which we didnt) and then we start losing to a bunch of teams we were 'supposed' to win against.

so yah, i don't think knicks can count as being terrible unless you have a much worse description for the raptors.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

I think that we are a much better team (this year). Not necessarily on paper, but we are better coached, are better defensively and are more disciplined. player for player, we have less individual offensive talent, yes, but I think the knicks are terrible.

Lastly, they're 15-26. for $%#! sakes, if we were 15-26...wouldn't you be saying "we are terrible"?

And, as this thread is also about potential over the next few years, we have WAY more potential than they do. The impact of Carmelo leaving, if and when he does, will be enormously larger than if Lowry leaves our team. (again, two speculative arguments that can be made either way).

[golden]

I think there are two reasons for this sort of thinking, both of which sort of fall into the feel of 'unfinished business'.

First, I think most people (NBA experts/insiders, fans and dare I say possibly even MU?) believed the Gay trade was the start of a rebuilding process, designed to reshape this team with the future in mind, while enjoying the residual benefit of tanking this season for a better draft pick. Given the intense Lowry rumors in the wake of the Gay trade, it certainly seemed like the Gay trade had set a process in motion, which has seemingly come to an abrupt halt. The team unexpectedly improved and made a run up the EC standings, which has caused everybody to re-evaluate all options.

MU tested the market for Lowry and it was really soft, especially the way the team and Lowry were playing. I think holding onto Lowry THEN, was the right move. Deals don't progress down an orderly timescale - it's all about supply, demand and opportunity. If anything, MU should have extended Lowry for 8M/yr in the off-season, if he had a crystal ball.

Second, despite the team's unexpected success in the post-Gay era, there's still huge uncertainty about what this roster's ceiling is (be it this season or in the future). The team is currently in a 3-way tie for 4th place in an historically weak EC, entrenched in the middle third of the league, seemingly epitomizing the "no man's land" that MU publically said he would absolutely avoid.

You know who has even more roster uncertainty than the Raptors? The Spurs. Duncan and Ginobili could up and retire at any point. Even so, Ginobil pretty much lost the championship for them by himself in Game 6 last year. Tony Parker is up for contract renewal next off-season, I think. Maybe the Raps should take a run at him, eh? TL brings over a couple more soccer players that he can hang out with. TL could pull that one off, I think.

And you know who else has roster uncertainty this summer? Miami. If the Heat don't win the chip, then they probably have to break up the 'Scheme Team', because no way Lebron continues to take a paycut and NOT win rings. And the Knicks with Melo, and so on, and OKC in few years from now. Uncertainty is the rule in the NBA, not the exception.

[BallaBalla]

I think there are two reasons for this sort of thinking, both of which sort of fall into the feel of 'unfinished business'.

First, I think most people (NBA experts/insiders, fans and dare I say possibly even MU?) believed the Gay trade was the start of a rebuilding process, designed to reshape this team with the future in mind, while enjoying the residual benefit of tanking this season for a better draft pick. Given the intense Lowry rumors in the wake of the Gay trade, it certainly seemed like the Gay trade had set a process in motion, which has seemingly come to an abrupt halt. The team unexpectedly improved and made a run up the EC standings, which has caused everybody to re-evaluate all options.

Second, despite the team's unexpected success in the post-Gay era, there's still huge uncertainty about what this roster's ceiling is (be it this season or in the future). The team is currently in a 3-way tie for 4th place in an historically weak EC, entrenched in the middle third of the league, seemingly epitomizing the "no man's land" that MU publically said he would absolutely avoid.

The post-Gay win streak and even more recent 3-game losing skid (plus the fact that Lowry is an expiring contract), have only served to reinforce the feeling that this team is at a bit of a crossroads this season, as the trade deadline approaches. Does MU view this team as being in the dreaded "no man's land" as currently constructed? Will MU take advantage of the weak EC and gear up for an unexpected playoff run? Will MU decide to continue the rebuilding process most people thought the Gay trade signaled?

Uncertainty and perhaps apprehension, regardless what side of the playoffs/tank/rebuild/retool debate you might be on, given how closely MU is playing his cards to his chest.

I think that this is truly what this thread is about. None of us know whether this team is truly a 45+ win team, or not. I don't think MU knows either.

My argument here is, unless we have a deal for something insanely lobsided (i.e. lowry for 2 first rounders and shumpert etc.) we stick with the team we have for this season because there is a lot to work with.

In a worst case, we have continuity and more time to see who is for real and get to judge the team in the playoffs.

In a best case, this team continues to exceed our expectations and establishes a real core of players to build around.

I really don't think that we're in a bad spot and as fans, who have been watching putrid and frustrating ball for so many years, I really see this as a win-win.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

MU tested the market for Lowry and it was really soft, especially the way the team and Lowry were playing. I think holding onto Lowry THEN, was the right move. Deals don't progress down an orderly timescale - it's all about supply, demand and opportunity. If anything, MU should have extended Lowry for 8M/yr in the off-season, if he had a crystal ball.


You know who has even more roster uncertainty than the Raptors? The Spurs. Duncan and Ginobili could up and retire at any point. Even so, Ginobil pretty much lost the championship for them by himself in Game 6 last year. Tony Parker is up for contract renewal this off-season, I think. Maybe the Raps should take a run at him, eh? TL brings over a couple more soccer players that he can hang out with. TL could pull that one off, I think.

And you know who else has roster uncertainty this summer? Miami. If the Heat don't win the chip, then they probably have to break up the 'Scheme Team', because no way Lebron continues to take a paycut and NOT win rings. And the Knicks with Melo, and so on, and OKC in few years from now. Uncertainty is the rule in the NBA, not the exception.

I don't disagree with any of that. I was just sharing my 2 cents as to why so many people seem impatient with MU, rightfully or wrongfully.

In addition to what I said in my previous post, I think impatience and curiosity are also leading factors. People heard what MU & TL said about this franchise and their championship aspirations, drew conclusions about the roster on the heels of BC being forced out, heard what MU said about no man's land, and leaped to conclusions from the Bargnani trade, the Gay trade and the Lowry rumors. People just want to find out what MU is truly thinking, what direction he intends to take the team and which players will stay or go... and they want to know NOW!

[Superjudge]

So we are almost half way into the season and this team is 20-20 which means in a normal season, we would be some where around 8-9 position in the East and exactly in the MIDDLE ...

MU came to town with ONE message: We do not want to be STUCK in the MIDDLE.

And this is exactly where we are stuck now ... So the question is :

IS MU done his assessment and evaluation ? What is his next move ?

I can only smile.
Because MU is supposed to be the saviour.

And really, he makes all the same mistakes BC made.


Its funny.

[iblastoff]

we're not 'stuck in the middle'. its just the middle of the season now for fucks sakes.

[white men can't jump]

I can only smile.
Because MU is supposed to be the saviour.

And really, he makes all the same mistakes BC made.


Its funny.

He hasn't made any of the same mistakes as BC. Having a .500 record does not equal "making all the same mistakes BC made". Now if we were capped out and locked into this roster for at least another year or two, and MU also was trading away draft picks and/or young assets to stay this mediocre you'd have a case. As it is, you're just trolling.

[Superjudge]

ya ya.

he pulled off a great move to fix a bad one by BC, which, is what BC did yearly.



Themove was tank, and hard, and he fucked it up.

[white men can't jump]

ya ya.

he pulled off a great move to fix a bad one by BC, which, is what BC did yearly.



Themove was tank, and hard, and he fucked it up.

That's bullshit. You're not going to build anything well if your first moves are to hold a firesale. Not even harder tanking teams did that, other than PHX, and it backfired massively for them because they hired too good a coach. Philly has struggled to find takers for their assets (and Turner and Hawes are both expiring). Utah had the luxury of letting theirs walk (Jefferson and Millsap were both free agents). Boston made out like bandits, but they had 2 starters (one of whom is a surefire 1st ballot HOFer) to dangle to a beyond stupid management/ownership group in Brooklyn. You think it's way too easy to tank. It's not just "hey, we need to suck, lets get rid of all our talent". It just doesn't work like that.

*Milly was trying to be good and that backfired to the point where they're tanking. Orlando is still in default tank-mode after the Howard trade.

[Superjudge]

[BobLoblaw]

Im not saying that they wouldn't be better, I'm saying that a healthy Tyson Chandler doesn't automatically equal a better team than the raptors (which they are proving right now since the knicks are still terrible and he's been playing the last couple of months)

Same goes for NJ and ATL....Assuming people are healthy does not mean that the team plays well together, etc.

I also just want to add, again, that this conversation is irrelevant. Brook Lopez gets injured all the time, for example. So why have a conversation about a team that has a healthy brook lopez for years to come? That's less likely than what has actually happened

Ah, better than the Raptors, fair enough, that changes the meaning of that statement completely. I don't know which of them would be better than the Raptors, but they'd be better. The Knicks for example are basically the same team that won 50+ last year, except now most of their glue guys are injured all the time, so they end up playing a bunch of scorers all at the same time. Tyson doesn't look healthy, btw, he's far less mobile and effective than last year.

Calgary's point is more general. It's not that this or that specific team will be better than the Raptors next year. It's that the the East is historically bad right now, and the Raptors have been very healthy. East is very unlikely to stay that way, and Raptors aren't likely to be so perfectly healthy forever. A team that ends up lets say the 4th seed under these circumstances will have to improve a ton just to maintain the status quo.

[RapthoseLeafs]

Trade Lowry

Raptors should move Lowry. His value is at an all-time high. What he could bring back is draft picks and some young talent (possibly hiding behind a Star). Trade him to Knicks for 1st pick & Shumpert - they're desperate right now. And yes, I realize that the Knicks turned down the purported trade, but things are worse now in the big city.

With the way he is going, his F/A value is escalating - and I'm of the belief he wants to go to a potential winner. Raptors are 2 years away from top 4 (in a normal conference situation - not like this year).
.

[enlightenment]

Lowry for Shumpert, Douglas Jr, and a First.

EDIT: Hardaway jr!