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Thread: The * to Masai's proclamation of, "We will not be caught in no man's land."

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default The * to Masai's proclamation of, "We will not be caught in no man's land."

    A lot of noise made by Raptor fans and media of Masai's "No Man's Land" proclamation... this fan included.

    The asterisk to that statement is he has never given a time frame.

    Patience is one of Masai's trademark attributes.

    Sadly it is not one for many fans - this one included. There are some patient fans out there.... and I'm sure you'll tell us who you are - lol, jokes.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Not only is the associated timeline speculative, but the definition of "no man's land" is completely subjective too. MU is masterful at both saying a lot and saying nothing at all!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Us fans have been in "no man's land" all season! Thanks Masai!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    A lot of noise made by Raptor fans and media of Masai's "No Man's Land" proclamation... this fan included.

    The asterisk to that statement is he has never given a time frame.

    Patience is one of Masai's trademark attributes.

    Sadly it is not one for many fans - this one included. There are some patient fans out there.... and I'm sure you'll tell us who you are - lol, jokes.
    If Masai gets into using semantics or tightening definitions or loose time frames of 'no man's land' to justify not being in it (assuming this team ends up there ofcourse... which it looks is well headed to at this point in time), I will be sadly disappointed in what I'll see as our new pseudo - Bryan Colangelo.


    I'm finding patience is in the eye of the beholder. To me, not being willing to rebuild through the top of draft shows a lack of patience (not willing to take the time it will inevitably take to do it and effectively). Yet others think starting the rebuild now instead of waiting shows a lack of patience.

    Patience is slowly but surely becoming a buzzword more then having any specific or real meaning - as long as one is willing to wait for something, its patience.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Not only is the associated timeline speculative, but the definition of "no man's land" is completely subjective too. MU is masterful at both saying a lot and saying nothing at all!
    My guess is 7-11 with limited means of improvement (ie. capped out, over valued contracts, little potential - any and/or all).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    If Masai gets into using semantics or tightening definitions or loose time frames of 'no man's land' to justify not being in it (assuming this team ends up there ofcourse... which it looks is well headed to at this point in time), I will be sadly disappointed in what I'll see as our new pseudo - Bryan Colangelo.


    I'm finding patience is in the eye of the beholder. To me, not being willing to rebuild through the top of draft shows a lack of patience (not willing to take the time it will inevitably take to do it and effectively). Yet others think starting the rebuild now instead of waiting shows a lack of patience.

    Patience is slowly but surely becoming a buzzword more then having any specific or real meaning - as long as one is willing to wait for something, its patience.
    I get your point. And in most cases would agree. The qualifier for our circumstance would be the time at which MU was hired. He was hired after most tanking teams had made their moves. I think his plan was to rebuild this year as evidenced by the Gay/ nixed Lowry trades.

    I also think though, that with the number of tanking teams this year, starting the rebuild next year makes more sense. This year, all the teams with long term assets are keeping them, and all the team's that are trying to push for the playoffs either don't have what we want or don't want what we have.

    It makes it easier for me to wait when the team is playing second round basketball.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    If Masai gets into using semantics or tightening definitions or loose time frames of 'no man's land' to justify not being in it (assuming this team ends up there ofcourse... which it looks is well headed to at this point in time), I will be sadly disappointed in what I'll see as our new pseudo - Bryan Colangelo.


    I'm finding patience is in the eye of the beholder. To me, not being willing to rebuild through the top of draft shows a lack of patience (not willing to take the time it will inevitably take to do it and effectively). Yet others think starting the rebuild now instead of waiting shows a lack of patience.

    Patience is slowly but surely becoming a buzzword more then having any specific or real meaning - as long as one is willing to wait for something, its patience.
    Well said.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    We are not presently, nor will we be during Masai's reign, in no man's land! If we get to that point, MU will be replaced. We will be knocking on the door of the EC finals by the time we host the all-star game, that is my prediction. As such, I am also predicting there will be no tank.

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    Hasn't all this been re-hashed many times? Did this Stein tweet give rise to a surge of tank related topics, yet again? The Sac trade vs Detroit rumour trade comparison, now this. Aren't you people tired of this yet?

    It was all doom and gloom going into the season. The huge salary anchor is gone. KL and DD are playing like all-stars. T Ross just had a game for the ages. But the topic of the day is back to "no man's land"? I don't get it.

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    You left out the even more interesting followup to the "no man's land" utterance. That being the "guarantee" and then the smoker to the Q "but, how can u guarantee?" with "because I can!".

    I thought that was a bit out of character for MU. However (tea leaves here), if seeking for a high pick thru team performance is out then quite possibly signing on an A lister free agent is maybe in the cards and allows for the "patience" m.o. This of course raises the whole LJ & KD meme again.

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    A couple years ago someone published a story about Rich Cho talking about the NBA Mediocrity Treadmill (7-11) and everyone bought into that and I think most people probably assumed this is what Masai was talking about when he made that statement about No Man's Land. But if you were a sucker like me, you took the entire hiring process into account meaning you also heard Tim Leiweke speak about winning championships. So then you thought Masai was talking about teams like the Atlanta Hawks' past 6 years -- making the playoffs a bunch of times but never getting much done.

    In retrospect it's more likely he was talking about the treadmill, which is unfortunate.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure MU was referring to this season. Even though he didn't come right out and say it he definitely made it sound like he was referring to it. At the end of the season if the team finishes in the treadmill area and fans are pissed, he hasn't put himself into a good position to reply that he wasn't referring to this season.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    Hasn't all this been re-hashed many times? Did this Stein tweet give rise to a surge of tank related topics, yet again? The Sac trade vs Detroit rumour trade comparison, now this. Aren't you people tired of this yet?

    It was all doom and gloom going into the season. The huge salary anchor is gone. KL and DD are playing like all-stars. T Ross just had a game for the ages. But the topic of the day is back to "no man's land"? I don't get it.
    It's drawn good conversation, not sure what your beef is.

    Back to the topic, I interpret his "no mans land" as more of a bigger picture, long term trajectory of the team. Don't think Masai cares too much if we finish 8th this season


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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    A lot of noise made by Raptor fans and media of Masai's "No Man's Land" proclamation... this fan included.

    The asterisk to that statement is he has never given a time frame.

    Patience is one of Masai's trademark attributes.

    Sadly it is not one for many fans - this one included. There are some patient fans out there.... and I'm sure you'll tell us who you are - lol, jokes.
    Not sure how you can advocate a tank and say you have no patience. If/when the Raptors go full tank mode, it will be at minimum two full seasons after the tank before the Raps would be even close to respectable again. If they get a superstar, they might be a playoff team by the third year. That's three years of losing (minimum) to get to the playoffs.

    Again, that's fine, but if you aren't willing to wait out 50 games, how are you going to wait out 240?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Not sure how you can advocate a tank and say you have no patience. If/when the Raptors go full tank mode, it will be at minimum two full seasons after the tank before the Raps would be even close to respectable again. If they get a superstar, they might be a playoff team by the third year. That's three years of losing (minimum) to get to the playoffs.

    Again, that's fine, but if you aren't willing to wait out 50 games, how are you going to wait out 240?
    I guess that you'd need patience to wait to tank.

    I made a post about this somewhere else, but it's not like missing out on 2014 means that we won't ever be able to tank. The question would be, is the 2014 draft so good that it's worth selling assets for less than we could next year, just to get a higher pick this year. This is, of course, assuming we'd get higher valued returns later given this year's success and the market softening up a little.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I guess that you'd need patience to wait to tank.

    I made a post about this somewhere else, but it's not like missing out on 2014 means that we won't ever be able to tank. The question would be, is the 2014 draft so good that it's worth selling assets for less than we could next year, just to get a higher pick this year. This is, of course, assuming we'd get higher valued returns later given this year's success and the market softening up a little.
    I get where you're coming from but, if the team intends to tank next season or the following season, what's the point of winning this season? It's looking like the absolute ceiling for the current roster would be an appearance in the 2nd round, likely getting destroyed by Miami/Indy; the Raps aren't exactly a championship contender hoping for one last season of playoff success before tearing it down (ie: Boston last season). If the team is going to tank in the near future, then I can't help but feel this will have been a wasted season.

    From my perspective, "this season" doesn't end until next season begins. Therefore, I'll withhold judgment until I see what happens at the draft and during next offseason.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie dzoni71's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I guess that you'd need patience to wait to tank.

    I made a post about this somewhere else, but it's not like missing out on 2014 means that we won't ever be able to tank. The question would be, is the 2014 draft so good that it's worth selling assets for less than we could next year, just to get a higher pick this year. This is, of course, assuming we'd get higher valued returns later given this year's success and the market softening up a little.
    Exactly! Warren Buffet has made a fortune of playing-off others fears. He is a buyer in a buyers market and a seller in a sellers market. That's what I want from my GM! This year you have at least 10 teams in full-rebuild mode. Do you really want to sell you assets at way below market price, just so you can run uphill? And I see absolutely no evidence that there are 10 future all-stars in this years draft to make this route worthwhile.

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    Quote dzoni71 wrote: View Post
    Exactly! Warren Buffet has made a fortune of playing-off others fears. He is a buyer in a buyers market and a seller in a sellers market. That's what I want from my GM! This year you have at least 10 teams in full-rebuild mode. Do you really want to sell you assets at way below market price, just so you can run uphill? And I see absolutely no evidence that there are 10 future all-stars in this years draft to make this route worthwhile.
    But if Lowry walks for nothing, you've lost your opportunity to sell at all. Wouldn't a positive, yet below expected market value return, still be better than zero return?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I get where you're coming from but, if the team intends to tank next season or the following season, what's the point of winning this season? It's looking like the absolute ceiling for the current roster would be an appearance in the 2nd round, likely getting destroyed by Miami/Indy; the Raps aren't exactly a championship contender hoping for one last season of playoff success before tearing it down (ie: Boston last season). If the team is going to tank in the near future, then I can't help but feel this will have been a wasted season.

    From my perspective, "this season" doesn't end until next season begins. Therefore, I'll withhold judgment until I see what happens at the draft and during next offseason.
    So, this is a fun exercise. What will a winning season in 2014 contribute to the long term building of a contending franchise?

    I'd say:

    1. Experience winning. I know this is often dismissed, but I think having JV and Ross experience being on a functional team before the tear-down could contribute to their development. Once it's time for the team to step it back up, these guys, who will hopefully be core contributors, will be able to draw on past experience of how things were handled in the locker room when slumps set in, when a playoff loss happens, etc. It's also possible that despite playing a little less minutes, they're still playing in a proper system, which may be contributing to positive development.

    2. Increased value of assets. I think two things are driving the value of our assets down right now: a. the number of teams selling (Afflalo, Turner, Young, Rondo?, etc.) and b. lack of recognition. The team's performance is already bringing a lot more attention to guys like DD and Lowry and I think this stretch of games has at least somewhat increased their trade value.

    3. Assuming we stay in the lottery for and equal number of years, whether we tank this year or next, we'll receive one extra low pick in 2017 (?).

    4. A fun year to watch basketball before it goes to sh*t.

    And, on the other side of the coin, what are we losing:

    -1. Draft position in 2014.

    -2. One year off of JV's and Ross's rookie contract. This one's looking like it won't be too hurtful right now. I don't think either of those guys are gettting max extensions.

    -3. One year of my life (I'm only 22 so I can wait.)
    Last edited by stooley; Mon Jan 27th, 2014 at 03:31 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie dzoni71's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    But if Lowry walks for nothing, you've lost your opportunity to sell at all. Wouldn't a positive, yet below expected market value return, still be better than zero return?
    Well what do you see as a positive return? Please define. To me a positive return isn't a 2nd rounder, expiring contracts, or a combo-guard that can't shoot or distribute (Shump).
    If MU can get first rounders, high-ceiling projects (Barnes), or good value contracts count me all in! And as far as I know we haven't been offered any of these.
    Last edited by dzoni71; Mon Jan 27th, 2014 at 03:21 PM.

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