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Thread: What If We Dealt DeMar And Not Rudy?

  1. #81
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Yes, in the offseason I was hoping the Raps could trade DeRozan to Utah for Millsap (via S&T), in a retooling effort (ie: not rebuilding or tanking), to better distribute the team salary and balance the lineup (those saying Gay & DeRozan couldn't co-exist were proven right). With hindsight, I still think that would've been a great trade, allowing Amir to become the 3rd big and Ross to start at SG sooner.

    I still support trading DeRozan for a top-5-10 draft pick at the draft, when MU can be guaranteed the value of the return. I prefer Ross as the starting SG going forward and I don't think DeRozan is a legit starting SF.

    The bottom line is that DeRozan is still primarily a one-dimensional player, who is largely inconsistently inefficient at that dimension. As I said above, there is no doubt that he has shown minor improvements, but he still hasn't resolved his key problem (or his secondary problem, being average-at-best defense).

    I'm not sure why I need to eat crow, but I'd prefer it well done if you're firing it up on the bbq.
    I'll gladly eat crow when he is no longer an inefficient volume scorer.

    As long as he is rocking 21 points per game on 18 shots the #1 and most important criticism and crow remains.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Yes, in the offseason I was hoping the Raps could trade DeRozan to Utah for Millsap (via S&T), in a retooling effort (ie: not rebuilding or tanking), to better distribute the team salary and balance the lineup (those saying Gay & DeRozan couldn't co-exist were proven right).

    I still support trading DeRozan for a top-5-10 draft pick at the draft, when MU can be guaranteed the value of the return. I prefer Ross as the starting SG going forward and I don't think DeRozan is a legit starting SF.

    The bottom line is that DeRozan is still primarily a one-dimensional player, who is largely inconsistently inefficient at that dimension. As I said above, there is no doubt that he has shown minor improvements, but he still hasn't resolved his key problem (or his secondary problem, being average-at-best defense).
    I'm not sure why I need to eat crow, but I'd prefer it well done if you're firing it up on the bbq.
    LOL You just never give up.....even your tanking avatar is still here! I don't know why you think your opinion of Demar is important to me. Clearly, we're not even watching the same games and your definition of talent is different than mines. You support trading our 24 year soon to be all-star because he didn't develop fast enough for you. Boy are we lucky your just a "super" mod and have no actual say in anything.

    You don't know why you need to eat crow?? HAhahaha.....good one. From re-tooling, to rebuilding to straight tanking.....you always find a way to walk that tight rope. See you at the kitchen table in a week....i'm serving and you'll eat whats on your plate young man!

  3. #83
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    LOL You just never give up.....even your tanking avatar is still here! I don't know why you think your opinion of Demar is important to me. Clearly, we're not even watching the same games and your definition of talent is different than mines. You support trading our 24 year soon to be all-star because he didn't develop fast enough for you. Boy are we lucky your just a "super" mod and have no actual say in anything.

    You don't know why you need to eat crow?? HAhahaha.....good one. From re-tooling, to rebuilding to straight tanking.....you always find a way to walk that tight rope. See you at the kitchen table in a week....i'm serving and you'll eat whats on your plate young man!
    Why are you incapable of discussing/debating an issue without getting so emotional, personal and insulting?

    You took shots at me, but didn't really do anything to address my opinion, which countless advanced stats support.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'll gladly eat crow when he is no longer an inefficient volume scorer.

    As long as he is rocking 21 points per game on 18 shots the #1 and most important criticism and crow remains.
    Keep moving the goal posts lol You'll eat crow if he makes the all-star game.

  6. #85
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Yes, in the offseason I was hoping the Raps could trade DeRozan to Utah for Millsap (via S&T), in a retooling effort (ie: not rebuilding or tanking), to better distribute the team salary and balance the lineup (those saying Gay & DeRozan couldn't co-exist were proven right). With hindsight, I still think that would've been a great trade, allowing Amir to become the 3rd big and Ross to start at SG sooner.

    I still support trading DeRozan for a top-5-10 draft pick at the draft, when MU can be guaranteed the value of the return. I prefer Ross as the starting SG going forward and I don't think DeRozan is a legit starting SF.

    The bottom line is that DeRozan is still primarily a one-dimensional player, who is largely inconsistently efficient at that dimension. As I said above, there is no doubt that he has shown minor improvements, but he still hasn't resolved his key problem (or his secondary problem, being average-at-best defense).

    I'm not sure why I need to eat crow, but I'd prefer it well done if you're firing it up on the bbq.
    Dude, you keep bringing up Millsap. You gotta stop. You're making it sound like it was a legit option. It very likely never was. Utah was clearly tanking and avoiding adding any salary they didn't have to. They would have no reason to make that sign and trade, otherwise they would've probably traded Millsap in the season for assets when he was expiring, rather than let his salary clear off the books...but they clearly prioritized the latter.

    You're also making it sound like it would obviously have made us better....Well, if we traded DeMar for Millsap, we'd probably still have to trade Gay (who Casey would still be making our #1 option and who proved he's even more miscast in that role than DeMar), and have one of the weakest wing rotations in the league, making it hard for ours bigs to operate as Ds wouldn't have to pay much of any attention to our perimeter players. We'd arguably be even easier to gameplan for. I mean, Memphis has finally and rightly been struggling with their somewhat weak wing rotation because teams can focus on Gasol and Randolph, who are superior talents at the moment than Jonas and Millsap would be as a pairing. So how would TO fair? Hard to say it would've necessarily created a better situation.

    Anyway, I don't mind that you think it would've been a good idea. It could've been (just like it could not have been). Just getting sick of you bringing it up in a lot of DeMar discussions over and over again. I would've also loved to trade Kyle for about 10 other PGs, or Gay for a better package than what we got....But these aren't even hindsight discussions. Hindsight is usually based on possibilities that were legitimately available, not fantasies.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Fri Jan 24th, 2014 at 05:17 PM.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Couple things to keep in mind when asking this "what if" trade:

    1. DeMar's trade value was/is at the highest level possible right now; likely would have received better assets i.e. McLemore/Thornton/Thompson > Hayes/Salmons

    2. Contractually, less money, so yeah.

    3. I think the Raptors would still struggle, because unlike DeRozan, Gay is an awful passer, and has serious tunnel vision. There's nothing wrong with his eyes, it's just he doesn't choose to see.

    Easy enough answer to me, Toronto would not be 4th with Rudy as the number 1.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Why are you incapable of discussing/debating an issue without getting so emotional, personal and insulting?

    You took shots at me, but didn't really do anything to address my opinion, which countless advanced stats support.
    Countless advanced stats.....sorry i must've missed the links.

    Honestly, relax, I just took a few jabs at you. I'm actually having a good laugh as I write this. I apologize if you actually take those words as insulting, because i don't really mean to insult you. I just have a fairly good memory and remember the things you wrote MANY times.....we'ren't you expecting this?

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Dude, you keep bringing up Millsap. You gotta stop. You're making it sound like it was a legit option. It very likely never was. Utah was clearly tanking and avoiding adding any salary they didn't have to. They would have no reason to make that sign and trade, otherwise they would've probably traded Millsap in the season for assets when he was expiring, rather than let his salary clear off the books...but they clearly prioritized the latter.

    You're also making it sound like it would obviously have made us better....Well, if we traded DeMar for Millsap, we'd probably still have to trade Gay (who Casey would still be making our #1 option and who proved he's even more miscast in that role than DeMar), and have one of the weakest wing rotations in the league, making it hard for ours bigs to operate as Ds wouldn't have to pay much of any attention to our perimeter players. We'd arguably be even easier to gameplan for. I mean, Memphis has finally and rightly been struggling with their somewhat weak wing rotation because teams can focus on Gasol and Randolph, who are superior talents at the moment than Jonas and Millsap would be as a pairing. So how would TO fair? Hard to say it would've necessarily created a better situation.

    Anyway, I don't mind that you think it would've been a good idea. It could've been (just like it could not have been). Just getting sick of you bringing it up in a lot over DeMar discussions over and over again. I would've also loved to trade Kyle for about 10 other PGs, or Gay for a better package than what we got....But these aren't even hindsight discussions. Hindsight is usually based on possibilities that were legitimately available, not fantasies.
    I'll stop bringing it up as soon as other posters stop pointing out an inaccurate agenda of mine, to trade DeRozan for unproven talent or pennies on the dollar, in a quest to prove my "hate" of DeRozan. That was my stated personal desire for DeRozan in the offseason, even though I knew then it was a highly unlikely option (and you're right that we have no idea what would/could have happened after such a move). I don't mind having my past opinions/ideas being called out, but I don't like being called out incorrectly.

    You're right though, I'll just ignore the reference from now on.

  12. #89
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Countless advanced stats.....sorry i must've missed the links.

    Honestly, relax, I just took a few jabs at you. I'm actually having a good laugh as I write this. I apologize if you actually take those words as insulting, because i don't really mean to insult you. I just have a fairly good memory and remember the things you wrote MANY times.....we'ren't you expecting this?
    Other posters who are far more versed in stats have posted the evidence in multiple threads, so you're right, I didn't post them yet again. My bad.

    Whether it's against me or any other poster, there's never a reason to make it personal, especially if you're throwing out insults (check the stickied post for forum rules).

    I did expect it, but until DeRozan proves that he can score efficiently consistently, it's not justified.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I'll stop bringing it up as soon as other posters stop pointing out an inaccurate agenda of mine, to trade DeRozan for unproven talent or pennies on the dollar, in a quest to prove my "hate" of DeRozan. That was my stated personal desire for DeRozan in the offseason, even though I knew then it was a highly unlikely option (and you're right that we have no idea what would/could have happened after such a move). I don't mind having my past opinions/ideas being called out, but I don't like being called out incorrectly.

    You're right though, I'll just ignore the reference from now on.
    Thank you . FWIW, I totally wouldn't mind you speculating on new trade ideas. Heck, I wouldn't even mind if you were talking about Millsap via Atlanta. Just feel like it's time to move on from that specific scenario with Utah that was never even remotely rumoured.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Other posters who are far more versed in stats have posted the evidence in multiple threads, so you're right, I didn't post them yet again. My bad.

    Whether it's against me or any other poster, there's never a reason to make it personal, especially if you're throwing out insults (check the stickied post for forum rules).

    I did expect it, but until DeRozan proves that he can score efficiently consistently, it's not justified.
    See.... thats where your wrong. You don't get to pick whether it's justified. Demar needs to prove nothing to you either. Many people here respect what he's done for this team. Too bad you can't see what he's done for us instead of what you want him to do. Maybe then you'd at least give him some respect. As always, you go back to the same talking points you made prior to the season....except you acknowledge he improved (a tiny little bit). Good for you! Would a spot on the all-star roster change your opinion? NOPE

    Seriously, how can i address your flawed opinion?

  15. #92
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    See.... thats where your wrong. You don't get to pick whether it's justified. Demar needs to prove nothing to you either. Many people here respect what he's done for this team. Too bad you can't see what he's done for us instead of what you want him to do. Maybe then you'd at least give him some respect. As always, you go back to the same talking points you made prior to the season....except you acknowledge he improved (a tiny little bit). Good for you! Would a spot on the all-star roster change your opinion? NOPE

    Seriously, how can i address your flawed opinion?
    You are throwing this "eat crow" sentiment at anybody who voices an opinion that points out any negative in DeRozan's game. However, the main issue most posters you've labeled as a "hater" bring up, is his scoring efficiency numbers. To myself (and I assume I'm not alone here), despite his improvements and potential all-star appearance, his scoring is still statistically very inefficient. This isn't due to having a flawed opinion, or really an opinion of any kind; the stats speak for themselves.

    Even though I still feel that way about his scoring efficiency, I've given him lots of respect, if you go check out other threads. I've gone so far as to say he (along with Lowry) should be on the EC all-star team this season. I've also said that he's showed himself much more worthy of his contract that he was when he signed it. I've never questioned him as a person, teammate or Raptors representative in the community.

    You always seem to mix these two things into one, when they can be mutually exclusive.

    I think one of the reasons I'm so hard on him is because he is a likable guy and would be great to have as a key player on a Raptors team that is a perennial contender. I so desperately want him to elevate his game to the next level but, despite all the hype, he hasn't been able to do so - at least not consistently. He's clearly not a #1 option but, as evidenced from the time playing alongside Gay (though Gay was a black hole, granted), he doesn't do as well when he isn't ball-dominant (compared to a guy like Ross, who barely needs to touch the ball to be successful) so it's a bit of a conundrum. Do you keep giving him #1 option quantity of touches and hope he improves his efficiency, or bring in a true #1 option and hope he doesn't disappear completely? Ross seems like a much better secondary scoring option to better balance the lineup, assuming a legit #1 scoring option was brought in as the starting PF/SF.

    Given the emergence of Ross, I'd still personally prefer to move DeRozan (his value should be at an all-time high after potentially both an all-star appearance and leading his team to the playoffs) and bring another starting SF in, be it through the draft, trade or free agency (I'd keep DeRozan as 6th man, but the Raptors' cap situation prevents them from enjoying that luxury).
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Jan 24th, 2014 at 05:55 PM.

  16. #93
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    How does crow taste? Most birds are pretty delicious

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    This -debate- is absolutely hilarious looking from the outside

    So I'm just gonna give a little tip to special1 here:


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    Quote Dr. James Naismith wrote: View Post
    Oh, and Lowry is arguably the team's best player. It pains me to say it because I've never been a fan of him since he came into the NBA, but without his resurrection, Toronto wouldn't be where they are at the moment. This team could still compete without DeMar in my opinion. Without Lowry at the moment, we'd be awful. JMO
    Well, depending on how long DeMar is out for now, I guess we'll have that opportunity to see how badly this team will (or will not) miss DeRozan. Let's see if I'm eating crow too.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Dr. James Naismith wrote: View Post
    Well, depending on how long DeMar is out for now, I guess we'll have that opportunity to see how badly this team will (or will not) miss DeRozan. Let's see if I'm eating crow too.
    It is a trade in the original scenario you proposed.

    An injury is not going to allow the returns in a trade to contribute
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  22. #97
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Wow, looking back at this; DeMar and Ross together for years to come (hopefully), it looks incredibly bright to me.

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  24. #98
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Dr. James Naismith wrote: View Post
    Well, depending on how long DeMar is out for now, I guess we'll have that opportunity to see how badly this team will (or will not) miss DeRozan. Let's see if I'm eating crow too.
    Haha I have been firmly on the bandwagon that losing DD will have a minimal impact on how the Raptors will perform.

    I guess we may get to see how wrong (or right) I am....and whether or not I'm eating crow

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    If only we'd traded DeRozan...
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    If only we'd traded DeRozan...
    We haven't passed the trade deadline yet, this is still a possibility

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