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Thread: What If We Dealt DeMar And Not Rudy?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Starter YoungGunRaptor's Avatar
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    @Matt52, again, tonight Derozan kept us in the game and ultimately was a big reason for tonights W.

    Forty points on 18/23 or whatever he shot is incredible. More importantly, he responded to the criticism and he attacked the basket. You really can't say that he doesn't play team basketball, given that he's averaged over 4 assists since Rudy left. Everything I talked about was addressed by the Raps tonight. The bigs stepped up, Derozan attacked the basket, and our team didn't settle for the 3 ball.

    Great win.


    Anyways, I hope it will be alright to compliment Demar again after tonights performance haha.
    “You can sink and drown, or you can float, and we out here like Michael Phelps."


    Demar Derozan

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Philly just beat the knicks in New York hahaha

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote YoungGunRaptor wrote: View Post
    @Matt52, again, tonight Derozan kept us in the game and ultimately was a big reason for tonights W.

    Forty points on 18/23 or whatever he shot is incredible. More importantly, he responded to the criticism and he attacked the basket. You really can't say that he doesn't play team basketball, given that he's averaged over 4 assists since Rudy left. Everything I talked about was addressed by the Raps tonight. The bigs stepped up, Derozan attacked the basket, and our team didn't settle for the 3 ball.

    Great win.


    Anyways, I hope it will be alright to compliment Demar again after tonights performance haha.
    He had a great game 2nd Q onwards no question.

    But this game is not the norm.... Sorry.

    1.8 points per shot is outstanding... That is the difference in game.

    His 1.03 of previous 5 games would have been 85-76 win for Mavs.

    His 1.17 of season would have been 85-79 win for Mavs.

    But as Prague, mike said tonight he had it and was difference in game.

    Good on him.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed Jan 22nd, 2014 at 10:37 PM. Reason: Mavs scored 85 and raps 93... Not 95-88... Whoops
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  5. #44
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote 4hunnit_degreez wrote: View Post
    Philly just beat the knicks in New York hahaha
    I take that back there was still a quarter left

  6. #45
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote 4hunnit_degreez wrote: View Post
    Philly just beat the knicks in New York hahaha
    NY is just bad. No chemistry on that team.

  7. #46
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    He had a great game 2nd Q onwards no question.

    But this game is not the norm.... Sorry.

    1.8 points per shot is outstanding... That is the difference in game.

    His 1.03 of previous 5 games would have been 85-76 win for Mavs.

    His 1.17 of season would have been 85-79 win for Mavs.

    But as Prague, mike said tonight he had it and was difference in game.

    Good on him.
    The best way to describe DD's game tonight was he hit shots. He took a lot of bad shots and just hit them. Though one could argue that if he would have played better D in the first...we may not have been down 21 after 1...

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  9. #47
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    The best way to describe DD's game tonight was he hit shots. He took a lot of bad shots and just hit them. Though one could argue that if he would have played better D in the first...we may not have been down 21 after 1...
    Well, that's exaggerating. Now, I was ragging on him as much as anybody in the dreadful 1st quarter (for his non-existent D), but he had maybe one of his better games in terms of shot selection (help explain a career high?), so you need to rewatch or at least check his shot chart.

    http://stats.nba.com/shotchartPopup....Measure=FG_PCT

    He shot 15-22 with 14 FTAs....And of his 22 FGs, 8 were long range, with 7 that might be called long 2s, with one 3pt attempt where he was wide open. 9 shots were deep in the lane/at the basket, and likely even more attempts that didn't register but ended up in him getting to the line.

  10. #48
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    Quick question, why are people only judging this trade Rudy vs DeMar using offensive numbers?

    Also, looks like Gay is injured. THAT makes me also want to consider durability when comparing the 2.

    I think Masai chose right. He picked the better contract, the better team defender (at least by appearance), the player more likely to pass the ball, the player more likely to change his game during rough spells, the younger player, and the more durable player. I think more teams would want DeMar than Rudy.

    In a normal year is he in All-star conversations? Hell no. Should he be a first option? No-- he'd be way more efficient in a secondary role. BUT he can be a first option. AND he brings all the other things I listed to the table. Just seems like a no-brainer to me.

  11. #49
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    Watching Gay in Sacramento, I still have aching feeling that Gay was playing poorly on purpose to get traded as soon as possible. He probably Knew, with Colangelo gone and Ujiri in, there was a very high chance that he was gonna get dealt somewhere, so he didn't even try to play in Toronto in his last year. If Colangelo had stayed as GM, I'm pretty sure Gay would have been much safer from getting traded.

  12. #50
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Well, that's exaggerating. Now, I was ragging on him as much as anybody in the dreadful 1st quarter (for his non-existent D), but he had maybe one of his better games in terms of shot selection (help explain a career high?), so you need to rewatch or at least check his shot chart.

    http://stats.nba.com/shotchartPopup....Measure=FG_PCT

    He shot 15-22 with 14 FTAs....And of his 22 FGs, 8 were long range, with 7 that might be called long 2s, with one 3pt attempt where he was wide open. 9 shots were deep in the lane/at the basket, and likely even more attempts that didn't register but ended up in him getting to the line.
    Shot Chart never can tell between good shot and bad shot, only where the shot took place. A shot chart cannot tell between an open corner 3 versus a fade-away contested 3 with 10 seconds left on the shot clock.

    The following link is where you can watch every shot attempt.

    http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300624

    Just click on the column FGA in the DD row.

    I went through and watched them all. In the first half I thought he did really well:

    1st Quarter: 4/4 on good shots and 0/2 on bad shots
    2nd Quarter: 2/3 on good shots and 0/2 on bad shots

    then he got hot...

    3rd Quarter: 3/4 on good shots and 3/3 on bad shots
    4th Quarter: 1/2 on good shots, 1/1 on bad shots, and 1/1 on circus shots

    13 good shots and 9 bad shots...his shot selection was much better than I thought. His 9/14 from the line really helped his stat line too.

    And also as a side note...he never really led the team at any time during the game. He was on the floor during the first and getting butt-whooped defensively. He wasn't on the floor during the comeback. The team didn't make any headway in the third with him 'exploding'. In the fourth I though Val was a bigger presence on both sides of the ball. I really think if DD didn't play for a stretch of games, the Raps wouldn't get any worse.

  13. #51
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Shot Chart never can tell between good shot and bad shot, only where the shot took place. A shot chart cannot tell between an open corner 3 versus a fade-away contested 3 with 10 seconds left on the shot clock.

    The following link is where you can watch every shot attempt.

    http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300624

    Just click on the column FGA in the DD row.

    I went through and watched them all. In the first half I thought he did really well:

    1st Quarter: 4/4 on good shots and 0/2 on bad shots
    2nd Quarter: 2/3 on good shots and 0/2 on bad shots

    then he got hot...

    3rd Quarter: 3/4 on good shots and 3/3 on bad shots
    4th Quarter: 1/2 on good shots, 1/1 on bad shots, and 1/1 on circus shots

    13 good shots and 9 bad shots...his shot selection was much better than I thought. His 9/14 from the line really helped his stat line too.

    And also as a side note...he never really led the team at any time during the game. He was on the floor during the first and getting butt-whooped defensively. He wasn't on the floor during the comeback. The team didn't make any headway in the third with him 'exploding'. In the fourth I though Val was a bigger presence on both sides of the ball. I really think if DD didn't play for a stretch of games, the Raps wouldn't get any worse.
    Shot chart can tell you about intent though, regardless of whether the shot is a good or bad attempt. If a guy isn't even trying to get into the lane, that's never a good sign. That's also why I suggested you rewatch...and as you saw, he didn't have a game full of "bad shots". There are games were 60-70% of his shots are pretty low quality. This was not one of them.

    On your last point, it's impossible to know. The team didn't make headway, but would they have fallen behind if he wasn't hitting those shots? I noted earlier that it's no coincidence their best stretches were when the O was more varied, but Casey's system doesn't often promote that, and thus you're left with guys like DeMar, Kyle and previously Rudy being forced into too many situations where they have to make something happen. Today DeMar was making pretty good choices. Another game could easily be the opposite.

  14. #52
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    If Derozan drove to the rim 70% of the time and actually make use of his 40" vertical, he would be a much more efficient player

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Beagle's Avatar
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    Someone mentioned a week or so ago that DeRozan's long twos seem like a problem now, but come playoff time, it really helps to have someone who can sink that type of shot because teams step up their defense and a long two is often the only shot available. This seems to make sense to me, but I really don't know much about these things. Anyone else care to comment on this reasoning? If it is true, the regular season would be his time to "practice" his mid-range game and hopefully be reliable in the playoffs when points are harder to find.

  16. #54
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Beagle wrote: View Post
    Someone mentioned a week or so ago that DeRozan's long twos seem like a problem now, but come playoff time, it really helps to have someone who can sink that type of shot because teams step up their defense and a long two is often the only shot available. This seems to make sense to me, but I really don't know much about these things. Anyone else care to comment on this reasoning? If it is true, the regular season would be his time to "practice" his mid-range game and hopefully be reliable in the playoffs when points are harder to find.
    fuck no. why would the long 2 ever be the only shot available. if anything, that would easily play to the opponents favour. if they force DD to shoot long 2s (which every team already tries to do), then we'll lose easily.

    if you watched the spurs/miami finals games you can tell the spurs basically invited lebron to shoot long 2s by giving him a ton of space when he dribbles up to the key. lebron is way better at midrange than DD is, and even the king himself hesitates to take that shot.
    Last edited by iblastoff; Thu Jan 23rd, 2014 at 07:55 AM.

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    Quote 4hunnit_degreez wrote: View Post
    If Derozan drove to the rim 70% of the time and actually make use of his 40" vertical, he would be a much more efficient player
    Well, that's basically what happened this game. He took 22 shots, plus 11 FTA, so that's 27 scoring opportunities, give or take. He shot 9 at the rim and 4 sets of FTA's, plus 5 short jumpers from about 10 feet that are good shots to balance the drive. That's 18 of his 27 scoring opportunities coming off a drive or getting close to the basket. 67%.

    He still took a good number of jumpers, but he set up his drive game first which opened up a lot more open shot opportunities for him (and got him into a rhythm offensively) later on.

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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    fuck no. why would the long 2 ever be the only shot available. if anything, that would easily play to the opponents favour. if they force DD to shoot long 2s (which every team already tries to do), then we'll lose easily.

    if you watched the spurs/miami finals games you can tell the spurs basically invited lebron to shoot long 2s by giving him a ton of space when he dribbles up to the key. lebron is way better at midrange than DD is, and even the king himself hesitates to take that shot.
    Today in "Not a Coincidence" we present the top 5 defensive teams in the league and the top 5 teams in midrange field goal attempts given up...

    Which teams force their opponents to take the most mid-range shots per game?
    In order:
    CHI
    IND
    ORL
    SAS
    GSW

    Which teams have the best DRTG in the entire league?
    In order:
    IND
    CHI
    OKC
    SAS
    GSW

    As a note, ORL and OKC are league average in the other category.

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  20. #57
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    [B]On your last point, it's impossible to know. The team didn't make headway, but would they have fallen behind if he wasn't hitting those shots? I noted earlier that it's no coincidence their best stretches were when the O was more varied, but Casey's system doesn't often promote that., and thus you're left with guys like DeMar, Kyle and previously Rudy being forced into too many situations where they have to make something happen Today DeMar was making pretty good choices. Another game could easily be the opposite.
    There are a lot of unknowns that neither of us can say definitively. I do agree that Casey's system is terribly unimaginative though.

    When I watch the Raps, I see DD...but he doesn't really impact the game like a good player should. And I'm not talking about LeBron level impact or anything like that, I'm talking even role player level impact.

    I dunno maybe it's just me and actually wanting to watch some proper basketball. (ie tank and get a star, masiah plz)

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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    fuck no. why would the long 2 ever be the only shot available. if anything, that would easily play to the opponents favour. if they force DD to shoot long 2s (which every team already tries to do), then we'll lose easily.

    if you watched the spurs/miami finals games you can tell the spurs basically invited lebron to shoot long 2s by giving him a ton of space when he dribbles up to the key. lebron is way better at midrange than DD is, and even the king himself hesitates to take that shot.
    But that's the point he is trying to make. When you get into the playoffs the good teams force you to hit that midrange. It's hard to get anything else going. The Spurs forced Miami to hit the midrange shot all night. I was even saying this is the perfect strategy and Lebron and Wade could never keep up their hot shooting from the midrange all game but they did and that's one of the only reasons they won. If the Spurs can keep LEBRON and WADE from doing much of anything else but takng the long 2 who is Derozan and the rest of the Raptors. Trust me, the further you get into the playoffs the more you need someone who can do more than just shoot the three and go all the way inside. Miami and Indiana will take all of that away if we make it to the second round. But I am not saying the long 2 is a good shot, it isn't. Also I do agree that Derozan does settle too much at times and needs to mix it up more.

  22. #59
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    The long two should only be used AFTER penetration and ball movement to try and get the three.

    If your offense is oriented around settling for the mid ranged shot you wont win anything important

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    The long two should only be used AFTER penetration and ball movement to try and get the three.

    If your offense is oriented around settling for the mid ranged shot you wont win anything important
    Agreed.

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