Marc Stein thinks Lowry is still being moved

[salmon]

Yeah the whole thing started with the report that Ujiri is asking for a big return on Lowry. No one said anything about dumping him.

I missed you P00ka!

If you don't like the word 'report', then how about the word 'discussion' ?
This discussion started around the premise that Ujiri is still holding out for a large return on Lowry; not a simple dump of him to get worse in the short term. Can we move on with the actual topic now that we've hashed out that meaningless point over semantics? Man oh man.

Whoaaa! I don't know what a "P00ka" is, but I gather that wasn't meant as a compliment. Isn't there some rule against childish name calling? Whatever.

Otherwise, your reply is rather senseless.

"If you don't like the word 'report', then how about the word 'discussion' ?"

Condescending bugger aren't you. Isn't there a forum rule against that too? Beginning to wonder if these rules are applied selectively, but I digress.

My point had nothing to do with "semantics", but I felt I had reason, in my opinion that you invited in your OP, to clarify what we're "discussing". FYI, you created this thread, quoting a baseless tweet, inviting discussion about that TWEET.

1. As the internet goes far too often, some people turn rumours into fact, or as in this case, turn a "baseless, tweeted rumour" into a "report". Not living in the twit world myself, I hardly see a baseless tweet as a "report", or even less as a "discussion"

2. I was merely referring to that misnomer as lead-in to my points that question the validity of that tweet, and why people take such shit so seriously. I asked if anyone had anything more backing up Stein's bs. You obviously don't, nor does anybody.

"Can we move on with the actual topic now that we've hashed out that meaningless point over semantics?"

Hey pal, you presented a tweet, and invited opinions. I gave my opinion of that tweet, but apparently you're getting your nuts all in a knot over my angle on the very "topic" you posted. If you create a thread, and want to restrict the discussion to only your angle on it, perhaps you should state that in your OP. Otherwise, I have no idea why you're so bent out of shape over my comment, unless you feel that the reality of what that tweet represents makes this discussion look foolish. That's life pal. We all make mistakes. No need to get all bent out of shape, and have a hissy fit.

That said, if you wish to spend your time analyzing bloody tweets as factual reports, because they support your narrative, have fun with that. Personally, I choose to put a hell of a lot more stock into what I read from all the body language I see from Kyle and his team, and a GM waiting in the tunnel for a mutual hug with his PG, that you want traded.

Go Kyle!!! Go Raptors!!!

[ebrian]

Maybe we should all change our avatars to a used car salesman instead.

Are you suggesting we all change our avatars to Bryan Colangelo?

[stooley]

Whoaaa! I don't know what a "P00ka" is, but I gather that wasn't meant as a compliment. Isn't there some rule against childish name calling? Whatever.

Just FYI Pooka was an abrasive "anti-tanker" who seems to have been either temporarily or permanently banned from this site. He had a knack for starting giant fights over small disagreements and liked bringing up past transgressions.

[Fully]

Just FYI Pooka was an abrasive "anti-tanker" who seems to have been either temporarily or permanently banned from this site. He had a knack for starting giant fights over small disagreements and liked bringing up past transgressions on the regular.

I don't know if this was supposed to be tongue in cheek but salmon = p00ka.

[Nilanka]

Whoaaa! I don't know what a "P00ka" is, but I gather that wasn't meant as a compliment.

Condescending bugger aren't you.

you're getting your nuts all in a knot

I have no idea why you're so bent out of shape

No need to get all bent out of shape, and have a hissy fit.

Really? You've never met p00ka? Precious stuff.

[stooley]

I don't know if this was supposed to be tongue in cheek but salmon = p00ka.

I almost made that same remark in a different thread before seeing the one here. He does have a distinct style.

[Fully]

Whoaaa! I don't know what a "P00ka" is, but I gather that wasn't meant as a compliment. Isn't there some rule against childish name calling? Whatever.

Otherwise, your reply is rather senseless.

"If you don't like the word 'report', then how about the word 'discussion' ?"

Condescending bugger aren't you. Isn't there a forum rule against that too? Beginning to wonder if these rules are applied selectively, but I digress.

My point had nothing to do with "semantics", but I felt I had reason, in my opinion that you invited in your OP, to clarify what we're "discussing". FYI, you created this thread, quoting a baseless tweet, inviting discussion about that TWEET.

1. As the internet goes far too often, some people turn rumours into fact, or as in this case, turn a "baseless, tweeted rumour" into a "report". Not living in the twit world myself, I hardly see a baseless tweet as a "report", or even less as a "discussion"

2. I was merely referring to that misnomer as lead-in to my points that question the validity of that tweet, and why people take such shit so seriously. I asked if anyone had anything more backing up Stein's bs. You obviously don't, nor does anybody.

"Can we move on with the actual topic now that we've hashed out that meaningless point over semantics?"

Hey pal, you presented a tweet, and invited opinions. I gave my opinion of that tweet, but apparently you're getting your nuts all in a knot over my angle on the very "topic" you posted. If you create a thread, and want to restrict the discussion to only your angle on it, perhaps you should state that in your OP. Otherwise, I have no idea why you're so bent out of shape over my comment, unless you feel that the reality of what that tweet represents makes this discussion look foolish. That's life pal. We all make mistakes. No need to get all bent out of shape, and have a hissy fit.

That said, if you wish to spend your time analyzing bloody tweets as factual reports, because they support your narrative, have fun with that. Personally, I choose to put a hell of a lot more stock into what I read from all the body language I see from Kyle and his team, and a GM waiting in the tunnel for a mutual hug with his PG, that you want traded.

Go Kyle!!! Go Raptors!!!

Lol. I'm not having a hissy fit, or have my "nuts tied in a knot" in the least. That is what this is ^^. I was honestly just trying to get the convo back on track and not have it derailed by the same strange, long winded rants from you that seemed to override a lot of the discussion before you were banned a few weeks ago. There's close to 100 replies in this thread in the last day, so it seems that someone may be interested in having a discussion about the topic at hand, even if you aren't.

Your opinion on the matter is certainly valid, and if you think Stein is full of crap, you are able to say so. Lost in all of your ranting and raving is the fact that I pretty much said that before you did during the first 20 replies of the thread. Regardless, if that's how you feel than why not just say your piece like a civilized person and keep it moving?

This will be the last time I respond to one of these posts from you. I'm not interested in arguing with a grown man over an NBA team online, trust me. I like talking about the Raptors, and it's a lot more enjoyable to do it when you're not following me around being a troll.

Cheers.

[ReubenJRD]

Lol. I'm not having a hissy fit, or have my "nuts tied in a knot" in the least. That is what this is ^^. I was honestly just trying to get the convo back on track and not have it derailed by the same strange, long winded rants from you that seemed to override a lot of the discussion before you were banned a few weeks ago. There's close to 100 replies in this thread in the last day, so it seems that someone may be interested in having a discussion about the topic at hand, even if you aren't.

Your opinion on the matter is certainly valid, and if you think Stein is full of crap, you are able to say so. Lost in all of your ranting and raving is the fact that I pretty much said that before you did during the first 20 replies of the thread. Regardless, if that's how you feel than why not just say your piece like a civilized person and keep it moving?

This will be the last time I respond to one of these posts from you. I'm not interested in arguing with a grown man over an NBA team online, trust me. I like talking about the Raptors, and it's a lot more enjoyable to do it when you're not following me around being a troll.

Cheers.

Alright fellas, let's chill here. All problems and issues with one another can be resolved in private chat with yourselves or facilitated with a mod. Let's keep this place heated about the Raptors, the NBA, and whatever basketball related, not personal.

Thanks for the cooperation.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Whoaaa! I don't know what a "P00ka" is, but I gather that wasn't meant as a compliment. Isn't there some rule against childish name calling? Whatever.

Otherwise, your reply is rather senseless.

"If you don't like the word 'report', then how about the word 'discussion' ?"

Condescending bugger aren't you. Isn't there a forum rule against that too? Beginning to wonder if these rules are applied selectively, but I digress.

My point had nothing to do with "semantics", but I felt I had reason, in my opinion that you invited in your OP, to clarify what we're "discussing". FYI, you created this thread, quoting a baseless tweet, inviting discussion about that TWEET.

1. As the internet goes far too often, some people turn rumours into fact, or as in this case, turn a "baseless, tweeted rumour" into a "report". Not living in the twit world myself, I hardly see a baseless tweet as a "report", or even less as a "discussion"

2. I was merely referring to that misnomer as lead-in to my points that question the validity of that tweet, and why people take such shit so seriously. I asked if anyone had anything more backing up Stein's bs. You obviously don't, nor does anybody.

"Can we move on with the actual topic now that we've hashed out that meaningless point over semantics?"

Hey pal, you presented a tweet, and invited opinions. I gave my opinion of that tweet, but apparently you're getting your nuts all in a knot over my angle on the very "topic" you posted. If you create a thread, and want to restrict the discussion to only your angle on it, perhaps you should state that in your OP. Otherwise, I have no idea why you're so bent out of shape over my comment, unless you feel that the reality of what that tweet represents makes this discussion look foolish. That's life pal. We all make mistakes. No need to get all bent out of shape, and have a hissy fit.

That said, if you wish to spend your time analyzing bloody tweets as factual reports, because they support your narrative, have fun with that. Personally, I choose to put a hell of a lot more stock into what I read from all the body language I see from Kyle and his team, and a GM waiting in the tunnel for a mutual hug with his PG, that you want traded.

Go Kyle!!! Go Raptors!!!

Given the title and OP of this thread, I thought it was quite obvious that this was a purely hypothetical discussion, under the assumption that there could be truth behind Stein's Tweet. Essentially, there's a 'suspension of disbelief' associated with the ongoing discussion.

I don't think anybody posting in this thread is adamant that Stein's Tweet is 100% truth, supported by verified, guaranteed sources. I'm sure lots of people posting in this thread probably even assume Stein's Tweet is nothing more than pure personal conjecture, without an ounce of fact behind it; that doesn't need to stop a hypothetical conversation from happening.

If hypothetical situations and "what if" musings were outlawed, we'd have nothing but game-day threads here in the forum. Unless, of course, MU decided to share some inside information to get feedback from loyal RR posters!

As a new poster here on RR, I'd suggest either joining in the hypothetical discussion, or simply ignoring the thread altogether. Please feel free to share your thoughts too, even if it's nothing more than "Stein's full of shit and knows nothing". I'd ask you not to poo-poo on an otherwise interesting and respectful conversation that had already been going on for 90 posts.


Cheers!

[imaginelino]

Without Lowry and a super decent PG as part of the return, this team will drop in No Man's Land. They won't be able to hold onto the Atlantic and risk dropping down to the dreaded 9-12th place. MU must see this.

anybody have ESPN insider?, Lowry article called "A Place In The Sun" ...Suns a possible destination for Lowry?

[salmon]

Wow, just wow. Sorry for having intruded on the party.

[ceez]

not sure if this is it but...

We're now just about three weeks from the Feb. 20 trade deadline, which means fans get to enjoy increased chatter about trade rumors, hypothetical or otherwise, but also deal with the annoying fact that many of those trade ideas will serve the interests of one party in terms of actual on-court improvement but not the other. But not all deals have to simply be a case of one team improving the present and the other storing away assets for the future.

That's what makes the situation in Toronto right now so interesting.

Last week, I took a look at a possible trade for Omer Asik that maintained some balance between present and future returns. This week, our player of emphasis is Kyle Lowry, a dark-horse All-Star candidate in the Eastern Conference who has led Toronto to a revival since the Dec. 9 trade that sent Rudy Gay to Sacramento for spare parts. Lowry has been very good, but his impending free agency creates a concern about maximizing return on his good play before he could leave in free agency, balanced against the fact that Toronto is squarely in the playoff picture in the East.

Is getting something for Lowry worth diminishing a playoff run? Maybe it doesn't have to be. Here's a possible trade: Lowry is traded back to the team that traded him to Toronto, the Houston Rockets. Let's break down the player, and the deal.


Lowry
The player: Kyle Lowry

Lowry, who will be 28 in March, is a small but sturdy point guard with a great first step and good basketball instincts. A vocal leader on the floor, Lowry straddles the line between "shoot-first" and "pass-first". He's aggressive in the pick-and-roll, looking to turn the corner and either get to the rim or force the defense to react and collapse, creating passing lanes. An adept passer with either hand, Lowry does a good job of checking off his passing options, and he will seek to find the roll man, weakside fill guys or shooters in the corners. He's not shy about pulling up for the jumper all the way out to the 3-point line and has steadily decreased his diet of shots from midrange over the years (either trying to get to the rim or pulling up from deep) and has made great strides in improving his accuracy outside the arc, shooting a career-high 40 percent this season.

Lowry's dribble penetration excels because of his compact stature, which allows him to keep his dribble low and tight. Combined with his first step and strong frame, he can get to the rim and finish through contact (shooting 59 percent in the restricted area). It also highlights one of his strong suits as a point guard: He rarely turns the ball over. Lowry's turnover percentage is less than 10 percent, which is remarkable for a player who handles the ball as much as he does and assists on 34 percent of his team's made field goals. Defensively, Lowry has the reputation of a bulldog, but that has subsided somewhat with his larger emphasis on offense. He has active hands on defense, though, and will look to strip the ball low if he's being posted up by a bigger opponent. He's not as committed as he once was to fighting over screens and staying solid on iso defense, choosing to call for switches or allowing his man to blow by him and then trying to poke the ball. But he's a smart defender, and he does a good job of peeling if picked off and cracking back to the big if beaten by his man instead of giving up on the play.

Lowry is a fiery competitor who doesn't have an off switch, which makes him a very good player but can also rub players and staff the wrong way at times. I saw Lowry play in a semi-organized pickup game at Villanova a few years ago and was equally taken aback by how hard he competed in such an informal environment and how hard he chewed out the volunteer referees on seemingly benign calls.

The trade fit: Houston


At 29-17, the Rockets are having a decent season, but decent isn't quite good enough in the hypercompetitive Western Conference, so they find themselves 2.5 games behind the Clippers for home-court advantage and just 3 games ahead of Dallas for the No. 8 seed. They've had issues shoring up their perimeter defense, starting Patrick Beverley for much of the season despite his inconsistent 3-point shooting, a necessity in the Houston offense. The Rockets also have dealt with injuries in their backcourt, with Beverley, James Harden and Jeremy Lin missing time. Adding Lowry would give them a two-way player at point guard who can halt the deluge of dribble penetration from that position while remaining an offensive threat by 3-point shot or dribble.

It should be noted that Houston already had Lowry and is well aware of his personality quirks. There was friction with coach Kevin McHale toward the end of Lowry's tenure in Houston, but much of this was centered on Lowry's loss of his starting role after returning from a bacterial infection that kept him sidelined for 15 games. After that, Lowry saw a 50 percent reduction in his minutes (from 35 to 18), field goal attempts (12.1 to 6.0) and points per game (15.9 to 7.4). Given how hard Lowry competes, it's easy to see how he would have been taken such a demotion badly, but there's no reason to believe both parties can't let bygones be bygones and move forward, especially with Lowry having the ability to play a significant role in Houston.

Although the Raptors are deep in the playoff chase, they face a very real dilemma with Lowry's contract status. Because he is an unrestricted free agent, they stand a chance of losing him without compensation, and thus the assumption Toronto will look to move him but also get a good haul in return.

However, because of that expiring contract, teams are hesitant to give up significant assets for the same risk of losing Lowry, thus limiting what Toronto can expect in return, even if he makes the All-Star team. So, for the Raptors, there are two questions:

1. Could moving Lowry mean missing the playoffs?
2. Would we rather get something for him rather than risk getting nothing?

The trade

Houston sends to Toronto: Jeremy Lin, Ronnie Brewer, a 2014 second-round pick (via N.Y.), and the less favorable of 2015 second-round pick (via N.Y.) and the 2015 second-round pick owed to Houston from Minnesota (which in turn is the less favorable of Minnesota and Denver second-round picks), plus cash considerations

Toronto sends to Houston: Kyle Lowry, Austin Daye

Houston has been trying to jettison Lin's contract for two reasons: The Rockets owe him $8.4 million on the books (which eats into their projected cap space), and he is owed a cash payment of almost $15 million. Despite bouncing back with a stronger statistical season offensively, his defensive struggles make it tough to play him and Harden at the same time because Harden is so limited defensively, as well. Trading Lin frees Houston from financial obligations in the future while bringing back a complete player in Lowry. Daye as a throw-in gives the Rockets a limited liability look at a gifted shooter with length who hasn't been able to make good on his draft-day promise; if he doesn't work out, his contract is guaranteed for only $250,000 next year.

For the Raptors, Lin's contract can be somewhat problematic. Although the coffers of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment can easily foot the cash bill for Lin's balloon payment, the $8.4 million cap hit eats into their cap space for next year. Still, he's a productive point guard who can be an engine for the Toronto offense, particularly with pick-and-roll-heavy sets with Amir Johnson and Jonas Valanciunas. Lin's popularity in Toronto doesn't hurt as a fringe benefit, and he'd also be reuniting with ex-Knicks teammates Steve Novak and Landry Fields.

Brewer's contract is completely nonguaranteed next year, so he is, in essence, an expiring deal. But the real assets are the second-round picks. Because the draft order in the second round goes by raw record (and not by non-playoff teams followed by playoff teams, as it does in the first round), the Knicks' 2014 second-rounder becomes highly coveted as a possible top-10 pick in the second round (high second-rounders offer the value of comparable talent to the bottom of the first round without the restrictions and fixed costs of a rookie scale deal). Toronto is unlikely to find the first-round pick it seeks for Lowry, so this is the next-best thing. Throw in an additional second-rounder in 2015 who has a chance to be relevant (least favorable of Denver, Minnesota and New York), and some cash to cover for the payroll increase for 2014, and Toronto has a significant haul for Lowry's expiring deal.

Standing in the way of this deal are the obvious issues with Lin's contract, coupled with Toronto's outsized desires for Lowry's deal. A possible deal sweetener might be the addition of Donatas Motiejunas, a stretch big who would fit well alongside fellow Lithuanian Valanciunas.

terrible article imho, rockets are one of the last teams to trade for the very player they gladly traded away. Lowry's relationship with rockets coach (forget his name) are well documented.

[imaginelino]

Jeremy Lin? no thanks. McHale and Lowry reunited? Thats a stretch as well.

[Bendit]

not sure if this is it but...



terrible article imho, rockets are one of the last teams to trade for the very player they gladly traded away. Lowry's relationship with rockets coach (forget his name) are well documented.

Thks for the post. The writer left out a very important part of KL's play this year....taking charges...he leads the league...Battier is next. McHale is/was the Houston coach. The article has far too many "details" of a possible transaction like Morey the GM maybe floating a trial balloon. In my view MU should still push hard for a #1 if he moves KL.

[stooley]

Thks for the post. The writer left out a very important part of KL's play this year....taking charges...he leads the league...Battier is next. McHale is/was the Houston coach. The article has far too many "details" of a possible transaction like Morey the GM maybe floating a trial balloon. In my view MU should still push hard for a #1 if he moves KL.

That trade sucks for the raptors, and i think houston doesn't even do it because how do they take KL back...

He left out charges, but also rebounds. Lowry is one of the raptors best rebounders. The number of times I see him down there fighting for them, or even stripping them from taller guys who brought the ball down a little low. Lowry seriously does everything on the court.