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Thread: The * to Masai's proclamation of, "We will not be caught in no man's land."

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Since the raptors hit a few bumps on the road with loses to the 'cats and lakers, and rumors about Lowry being back on the trade market, the talks about tanking have resurfaced. I'm just curious as to what you think a Masai Ujiri team would look like if he does tank the team and rebuilds from scratch. Let's just say JV and Ross are the lone Raptors left standing after the tank?

    The reason I ask is that the current roster looks very much like an MU team to me. Young, athletic, strong bench, a team that gets up and down the floor quickly, ball movement, no true stars but scoring comes from everywhere.

  2. #62
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Few things:

    1. Again, there is massive cognitive dissonance here. A Raps team with no Lowry, no Derozan and Andrew Wiggins (for example) has way, way more question marks than the current squad.

    2. If you believe the Raps already have two good young players and the ability to lure meaningful free agents, then why in the world would you advocate a tank? Wouldn't it simply make far more sense to try and attract a premier free agent from a position of strength?

    3. How are the current Raps mediocre? They are 17-9 since the Gay deal. That projects to a 50-win season.

    This team has flaws and, no, it doesn't have a Lebron James. But, again, this roster was an absolute mess only 6 months ago. In the interim, the organization has shed two horrible contracts and anchor-weight players, re-made its entire front office and coaching staff, completely gutted its bench, and starts two enormously important players who are under 22 - and they have done all this while dramatically improving as a ball club.

    You are starting to remind me of the guy that pops up on the front page of the Globe and Mail every time the market tanks, "Genius Analyst Predicted Bear Market". What they don't tell you is that they guy has been predicting a bear market every day for 4 years and is only finally right today. So, yeah, two years from now you might be right that 2013-14 was a bad year for the organization but, in the meantime, you've missed out on any success in the interim.

    Can't we acknowledge all the good that has been here in such a short time?
    I agree. I agreed with Matt52 completely for the first couple months of the season when this team was a hot mess and you may as well trade everybody, angle for a high draft pick, and start from scratch with your new GM. It was completely sensible.

    But the landscape has changed - drastically. Clearly there are valuable, young assets on this team who can be productive players (and starters) on a winning team, and some of them are on good to great contracts.

    I know rebuild proponents hate "retool on the fly" type rhetoric, but that's what you have to do when you already have good assets but not a championship-level core. Kind of like what Ujiri had going in Denver - he moved from a winning team with 'Melo to a winninger (lol) team after significantly altering the roster. The Raps should still be aiming to improve their ceiling through trades, FA, and solid draft choices, but they should be looking to move up from this point. I don't think it makes sense to tear it down to the ground level anymore.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Since the raptors hit a few bumps on the road with loses to the 'cats and lakers, and rumors about Lowry being back on the trade market, the talks about tanking have resurfaced. I'm just curious as to what you think a Masai Ujiri team would look like if he does tank the team and rebuilds from scratch. Let's just say JV and Ross are the lone Raptors left standing after the tank?

    The reason I ask is that the current roster looks very much like an MU team to me. Young, athletic, strong bench, a team that gets up and down the floor quickly, ball movement, no true stars but scoring comes from everywhere.
    Tanking just isn't feasible anymore. We've won too many games.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Tanking just isn't feasible anymore. We've won too many games.
    The pro-tank talk has already moved on to next season.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Tanking just isn't feasible anymore. We've won too many games.
    I agree, and while I still agree with the pro tanking crowd that to truly be a contender on a regular basis you have to have star talent locked in for the long term, I don't personally see it as the direction MU is taking this team.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I agree, and while I still agree with the pro tanking crowd that to truly be a contender on a regular basis you have to have star talent locked in for the long term, I don't personally see it as the direction MU is taking this team.
    Agreed. At this point, if MU still intends to rebuild, significantly retool or make a big splash in the draft, I expect he'll wait until draft night and/or the offseason to cash-in his assets.

    Lowry continues to be a dilemma. If Lowry (or his agent) has indicated to MU that he doesn't intend to re-sign or at least wants to seriously test the free agent market, that could impact MU's decision. If MU decides that trading Lowry is the best long-term option, then it would make sense to do so as quickly as possible, because the team will likely take a nosedive without him. The longer MU waits to trade Lowry, the greater the chance of being stuck in "no man's land" this season.

    A lot of decisions hinge on Lowry and what is going on behind the scenes.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I agree, and while I still agree with the pro tanking crowd that to truly be a contender on a regular basis you have to have star talent locked in for the long term, I don't personally see it as the direction MU is taking this team.
    After reading that Cathal Kelly article about the recent TFC acquisitions, it wouldn't surprise me if Lieweke/Ujiri have something big up their sleeve. I have no idea if it's this summer, or the next, but I know they're not standing pat with their hands in their pockets (the way Ujiri makes us believe).

    Something is definitely up. The Rod Black interview with Ujiri during the Clippers game almost hinted as such.

    Black: "Are you going to be buyers or sellers at the deadline?"

    Ujiri: "Hehehehe, you'll soon find out.....hehehehe [shifty eyes]"
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  12. #68
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Agreed. At this point, if MU still intends to rebuild, significantly retool or make a big splash in the draft, I expect he'll wait until draft night and/or the offseason to cash-in his assets.

    Lowry continues to be a dilemma. If Lowry (or his agent) has indicated to MU that he doesn't intend to re-sign or at least wants to seriously test the free agent market, that could impact MU's decision. If MU decides that trading Lowry is the best long-term option, then it would make sense to do so as quickly as possible, because the team will likely take a nosedive without him. The longer MU waits to trade Lowry, the greater the chance of being stuck in "no man's land" this season.

    A lot of decisions hinge on Lowry and what is going on behind the scenes.
    This is still the thing.

  13. #69
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Agreed. At this point, if MU still intends to rebuild, significantly retool or make a big splash in the draft, I expect he'll wait until draft night and/or the offseason to cash-in his assets.

    Lowry continues to be a dilemma. If Lowry (or his agent) has indicated to MU that he doesn't intend to re-sign or at least wants to seriously test the free agent market, that could impact MU's decision. If MU decides that trading Lowry is the best long-term option, then it would make sense to do so as quickly as possible, because the team will likely take a nosedive without him. The longer MU waits to trade Lowry, the greater the chance of being stuck in "no man's land" this season.

    A lot of decisions hinge on Lowry and what is going on behind the scenes.
    Lowry is definitely the heart and soul of this team, and I'd love for him to resign. However, I think most everyone is sort of having a difficult time envisioning the Raptors as being good without Lowry. There are options out there where the Raptors can still be a good team even without Kyle Lowry, maybe better. And as Nilanka pointed out, MU and TL are not the types to not be without a plan and multiple back up plans should the first one fail.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star e_wheazhy_'s Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    In order to keep this core together, Lowry, Patterson, Hansborough and Vasquez would need to be re-signed, in addition to adding up to 3 draft picks (TOR 1st, SAC 2nd, OKC 2nd). I suppose Patterson/Hansborough or Vasquez could potentially be let go, if they are replaced by the 1st round pick. However, even re-signing a Lowry and one of the other 3 would mean this team is once again capped-out, with organic growth as the only means of improvement.

    There are many teams in the EC that will likely improve next season, due to a combination of injuries this season, their prospects improving, impact draft picks being added and free agents being added. Even if they don't all pan out, all it would likely take is for a couple teams to take significant steps forward, for Toronto to be out of the playoff picture.
    I can see MU resigning Lowry and all 3 and then flipping Vasquez/Hansborough for a Wilson chandler type. Add in ennis or christon or Napier with one of three draft picks and then adding some frontcourt depth with the other 2 draft picks/free agency, and I think that's an improved ball club with even more room to grow and maybe even more cap room.

    I think because we're Toronto fans, we overrate other teams and underrate our own. Are Milwaukee, Orlando and Philly going to be better than us next year if the above scenario happens (or the current teams stays)? The only teams I can see passing us would be Chicago, with a healthy Rose (IF he's healthy), and Brooklyn, if their frontcourt still has knees. Washington, Cleveland and Charlotte get added there if they drink Michael Jordan's magic water or steal other team's talents like the monstars (can you tell I watched space jam recently?)
    A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    After reading that Cathal Kelly article about the recent TFC acquisitions, it wouldn't surprise me if Lieweke/Ujiri have something big up their sleeve. I have no idea if it's this summer, or the next, but I know they're not standing pat with their hands in their pockets (the way Ujiri makes us believe).

    Something is definitely up. The Rod Black interview with Ujiri during the Clippers game almost hinted as such.

    Black: "Are you going to be buyers or sellers at the deadline?"

    Ujiri: "Hehehehe, you'll soon find out.....hehehehe [shifty eyes]"
    Yeah, even if he never gave that interview, with the big signings and moves MLSE have made to be competetive sooner rather than later, you have to think that the same is in store for the Raptors. Pretty exciting to think we could land a big fish in a trade somewhere.

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    I will say this: You can't undervalue real talent. If we trade Lowry at this point for what has been offered, we really will be in no-mans land! And getting 2nd round picks and nice pieces is overrated(seriously, even if we got a Sacremento bench for Kyle where would that really leave us?). By keeping Kyle you develop a winning culture and tough mentality and have a great shot at resigning him and continuing this growth. Trading him is the definition of no man's land for me.

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  18. #73
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Raps defense since January 12th has been atrocious: 106 DefRtg.
    I still think a large part of that was Jonas and Amir being sick and trying to play through it. There were about 4-5 games in there where, for no discernible reason, they were just getting destroyed inside (and unable to contribute anything offensively). For the past two games now, they've looked closer to normal. Let's see what their DefRtg looks like over the next three weeks.

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    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't care if the Raptors trade Lowry or not. But I very much believe few, if any, of those suggesting Lowry be traded prior to the deadline is and has been a season ticket holder for the past few years. To use the old analogy, we may supply an egg, but it's the season ticket holders who supply the bacon. Management could explain it away if the team spirals downward, but as long as the team is winning it will be close to an impossible sell.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    I still think a large part of that was Jonas and Amir being sick and trying to play through it. There were about 4-5 games in there where, for no discernible reason, they were just getting destroyed inside (and unable to contribute anything offensively). For the past two games now, they've looked closer to normal. Let's see what their DefRtg looks like over the next three weeks.
    Good point.

    I hope they get back to 'normal' soon. I disagree on last two games. Clippers and Nets were brutal defensive games, in my opinion.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    I'm in the camp of "let's-keep-moving-forward-and-get-to-the-second-round-of-the-playoffs-and-then-resign-Lowry-and-draft-Ennis-if-he's-available-at-number-20-or-if-Lowry-doesn't-want-to-resign-then-sign-and-trade-him-to-LA-for-their-7th-pick-and-then-pair-that-pick-with-our-20th-to-move-up-and-draft-Wiggins."

    Is there an avatar for that?
    ďThe saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.Ē - Martin Luther King

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  24. #77
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Chisholm just wrote a great article on the front page that I think is very relevant to this thread.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Good point.

    I hope they get back to 'normal' soon. I disagree on last two games. Clippers and Nets were brutal defensive games, in my opinion.
    But not because of Amir and Jonas. Bad defence for the past two games comes down to two wings, Crawford and Pierce, going off for season-best nights. So, were these outlier games? Or have other teams figured something that can let one of their abuse us...

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    Personally, I don't care if the Raptors trade Lowry or not. But I very much believe few, if any, of those suggesting Lowry be traded prior to the deadline is and has been a season ticket holder for the past few years. To use the old analogy, we may supply an egg, but it's the season ticket holders who supply the bacon. Management could explain it away if the team spirals downward, but as long as the team is winning it will be close to an impossible sell.
    Hi Kevin! welcome to RR

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I'm in the camp of "let's-keep-moving-forward-and-get-to-the-second-round-of-the-playoffs-and-then-resign-Lowry-and-draft-Ennis-if-he's-available-at-number-20-or-if-Lowry-doesn't-want-to-resign-then-sign-and-trade-him-to-LA-for-their-7th-pick-and-then-pair-that-pick-with-our-20th-to-move-up-and-draft-Wiggins."

    Is there an avatar for that?


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