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Thread: The * to Masai's proclamation of, "We will not be caught in no man's land."

  1. #101
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    A lot of noise made by Raptor fans and media of Masai's "No Man's Land" proclamation... this fan included.

    The asterisk to that statement is he has never given a time frame.

    Patience is one of Masai's trademark attributes.

    Sadly it is not one for many fans - this one included. There are some patient fans out there.... and I'm sure you'll tell us who you are - lol, jokes.
    So you are saying he meant to say "we won't be in no mans land.....3 years from now"?lol

    That would be an intentional misleading of the fans. Masai and Lieweke made it very clear during the offseason and it was meant in the here and now. 7-11 is a death bed in the NBA.

    If he did come back and say he didn't give a timeframe, I would personally feel the BC vibe creeping in again. Talking out of your mouth but ain't sayin' nuthin. Saying you want to 'contend' but really saying you are 'content'.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    A lot of noise made by Raptor fans and media of Masai's "No Man's Land" proclamation... this fan included.

    The asterisk to that statement is he has never given a time frame.

    Patience is one of Masai's trademark attributes.

    Sadly it is not one for many fans - this one included. There are some patient fans out there.... and I'm sure you'll tell us who you are - lol, jokes.
    He didn't have to. MLSE did when they spent $100M on two soccer players.

    The moment the talent becomes available, Leiweke will figure out how to get it here, and MLSE will bust out the cheque book. We're in no man's land right now, but we aren't stuck. We're waiting.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Few things:

    1. Again, there is massive cognitive dissonance here. A Raps team with no Lowry, no Derozan and Andrew Wiggins (for example) has way, way more question marks than the current squad.

    2. If you believe the Raps already have two good young players and the ability to lure meaningful free agents, then why in the world would you advocate a tank? Wouldn't it simply make far more sense to try and attract a premier free agent from a position of strength?

    3. How are the current Raps mediocre? They are 17-9 since the Gay deal. That projects to a 50-win season.

    This team has flaws and, no, it doesn't have a Lebron James. But, again, this roster was an absolute mess only 6 months ago. In the interim, the organization has shed two horrible contracts and anchor-weight players, re-made its entire front office and coaching staff, completely gutted its bench, and starts two enormously important players who are under 22 - and they have done all this while dramatically improving as a ball club.

    You are starting to remind me of the guy that pops up on the front page of the Globe and Mail every time the market tanks, "Genius Analyst Predicted Bear Market". What they don't tell you is that they guy has been predicting a bear market every day for 4 years and is only finally right today. So, yeah, two years from now you might be right that 2013-14 was a bad year for the organization but, in the meantime, you've missed out on any success in the interim.

    Can't we acknowledge all the good that has been here in such a short time?
    1. I disagree on the question mark and you've clearly missed my point. My giant question mark is the direction of this team. Still undecided until trade deadline and then after this year is another giant question mark. The Raptors might be a team without Lowry without a say in the matter come July.

    2. The Collective Bargaining Agreement. Raptors aren't going to be able to land major free agents loaded up on non-rookie deal players. And for the love of god, I'm not advocating tanking. I'm stating that Ujiri has never given a time frame on the no man's land comments and the higher end of the draft and all the advantages that go along with it and rookie deals greatly benefit a deep pocketed ownership group which the Raptors have.

    3. Where did I say the Raptors are mediocre in this thread. I don't recall and there have been so many replies. The Raptors might be 17-9 since Gay trade however the 3 losses to Boston, LAL, and Charlotte and the manner in which they lost are extremely unnerving for me. Granted no team is going to go 82-0 but the hallmark of a good team is beating the teams you are "suppose" to. I could handle a loss in one of those 3 but all three? Scary, at least for me.


    I agree with your third paragraph. Good moves have been made towards the future.


    Your financial analogy is interesting. I would ask: is it better to be a cautious bear and recognize the dangers lurking in the markets OR is it better to be one of those people who buy in when they think the coast is clear and there is nowhere to go but up? Ironically 2007 was such a time for both Toronto and the markets. But sticking to the last 4 years, how many jumped in the first half of 2010 after a spectacular run off March 2009 only to GTFO/stopped out in the May 2010 Flash Crash? How many jumped in the first half of 2011 one year after Flash Crash thinking all safe only to have Euro Debt Crisis hit through the summer and in to October 2011? How many people finally got giddy last fall (a lot based on all-time record in margin debt) and jumped in only to see the markets give up 2 months of gains in the last week? Now I'm not saying people should be short or shouldn't be in the market. However there is a time to buy and a time to be cautious. I think caution is warranted in the markets and with the Raptors at this time. I'm not sure the Raptors trajectory but I feel confident the DOW will be at 25000 or more by end of 2015 in to 2016 however I currently don't have a dime long.... caution.


    And yes, we can acknowledge a lot of good has been done: from new ownership to Leiweke to gutting front office to trading Gay/Bargnani to development of Ross/JV to emergence of Lowry to steady progression of DeRozan (outside of efficiency).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  5. #104
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    Hasn't all this been re-hashed many times? Did this Stein tweet give rise to a surge of tank related topics, yet again? The Sac trade vs Detroit rumour trade comparison, now this. Aren't you people tired of this yet?

    It was all doom and gloom going into the season. The huge salary anchor is gone. KL and DD are playing like all-stars. T Ross just had a game for the ages. But the topic of the day is back to "no man's land"? I don't get it.
    Why do you think that is fans want the team to build through the draft to add talent as being doom and gloom?

    In a years time if this team is back in the lottery because they took the easy road again, what will you say? "well it was good while it lasted"

    What's not to get? if they don't win the division they will most likely end up in the 7-11 spot which both Masai and Lieweke has indicated is no mans land.

    Nowadays if you don't agree with the herd, you are subject to intense criticism, when really it should just be respected as a difference of opinion. I've seen this Raptor movie before and I'm not interested in a sequel.

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  7. #105
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    LOL, fans are OBSESSED with the need for Masai to lay out his plan for you, step by step. He's not a politician, he doesn't need to lay out his plans or make campaign promises.

    The internet/twitter generation has made fans so impatient, demanding instant gratification and information.
    No, Bryan Colangelo did that. No Raptor GM is to be trusted blindly, period.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    So you are saying he meant to say "we won't be in no mans land.....3 years from now"?lol

    That would be an intentional misleading of the fans. Masai and Lieweke made it very clear during the offseason and it was meant in the here and now. 7-11 is a death bed in the NBA.

    If he did come back and say he didn't give a timeframe, I would personally feel the BC vibe creeping in again. Talking out of your mouth but ain't sayin' nuthin. Saying you want to 'contend' but really saying you are 'content'.
    Could you find a quote or story that makes it clear it was meant to be for this year?

    I've yet to come across one. It would be appreciated if you could.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #107
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Heh.

    This year was a tank year. It started wit rudy getting shipped for cap space and some pine riders.

    The pone riders over archived. The Point guard actually took the managements advice and is not twice the player he ever was. The SG kept improving. Two second year players.... doing ok.

    This was NEVER gonna be a year to compete for the third spot in the east....if you think it was you're mistaken. Everything that has happened was unexpected, and it caused UM to pause, and when he paused, right after the trade, this team promptly won 5 games and took itself out of the tank.

    Nobody thought it would happen. It wasn't supposed to happen.

    Masai isn't a god, he's a good GM, and he played the odds and lost, so once that happened he had to pray for wins. So now you have a squad, that isn't even a playoff team in the west, toiling at .500, which is what we like to call "no mans land".

    I don't have an axe to grind, I like Masai a great deal, but he got effed over with this over achieving group of guys, and I think everyone knows that.

    So now, it is what it is, and unless this team shocks the world and finishes out season strong, they will be around the 14-18th draft pick, and THAT my friends is failure. Might have been uncontrollable, but it ain't winning.
    Don't say that. You're logic will be considered offensive.

    I agree with you that after the Gay move he paused and now has a .500 team that is not a contender by any stretch, probably has a limited ceiling going forward, and have very few options outside of a relatively late draft pick to improve.

    If that's not 'no mans land', what is?

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  12. #108
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is turning to the only consolation prize.

    Maybe when a few guys drop out of '14 and the hype turns to outright negativity, picks might be available by desperate GMs looking to appease fickle owners and impatient fans.

    The more I look through the guys projected to go 7-15 the more I like.... well, a few at least.
    Embiid, Wiggins, Exum imho all have the potential to be stars in the league.

    Those down on the draft will be back on board come June.

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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    He didn't have to. MLSE did when they spent $100M on two soccer players.

    The moment the talent becomes available, Leiweke will figure out how to get it here, and MLSE will bust out the cheque book. We're in no man's land right now, but we aren't stuck. We're waiting.
    But MLS soccer is not bound by a collective bargaining agreement. I think Leiweke referred to it as still very much the Wild West, uncharted frontier or something along those lines.

    I think you are right but it will be tough to break out the cheque book after 2015-16 season. 2016-17 currently has $20M in cap holds for JV/Ross plus $9.5 for DD plus hypothetical $9M for Lowry plus possible 2014 pick, 2015 pick, possible 2 2016 firsts, then is Patterson resigned? What about Amir? Vasquez?

    This summer is a weak free agent crop and right now Raps would not have enough to offer a max anyways... and can offer nothing if they resign Lowry.

    You've got 2015 summer to work with though with enough space to sign 1 max free agent.... so there is that.


    But so much is likely to change that things are irrelevant and hardly set in stone at this point in time.

    The one constant is tying up $20M in DeRozan and Lowry does make things much more difficult due to the CBA and timing. If Masai could get what he feels is fair value for DeRozan or Lowry and if he has eyes on pulling a Toronto FC type move of his own then he should be looking to deal Lowry and DeRozan sooner than later to maximize assets returned and own Raptors assets/picks.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Embiid, Wiggins, Exum imho all have the potential to be stars in the league.

    Those down on the draft will be back on board come June.
    Compared to the earlier hype of "the top 4-5 players are likely franchise players", "have the potential to be stars" is indeed a downgrade. Not a reason to be down on the draft, but I do think 1st round picks are being slightly overvalued.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    No, Bryan Colangelo did that. No Raptor GM is to be trusted blindly, period.
    This guy typing right here: guilty.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  17. #112
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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    They are saying everybody except Embiid, actually.
    Don't get too caught up in what "they" say.

    They didn't predict MCW would look as he has or Lillard in a draft prior to that. I remember 'they' saying that Curry would have issues in the pros because he wasn't a 1 and was too short for the 2 and Harden was a stretch being selected in the top 5. "They" also said that Drummond had a low motor and wasn't coachable, etc, etc.

    Everyone has opinions but if you really look and watch some of the potential prospects in this draft and compare it to the previous 5 drafts, this has the chance to be a very good draft class.

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  19. #113
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    What evidence is there that we are stuck in no mans land anyways? We have a young team that is better than it was last year and is improving. Does anyone actually think that this team, as is, would regress next season? I don't. All I see is upside! We have no where to go but up, and I don't see a single reason to suspect we need to plummet for ping pong balls in order to become contenders.
    Don't know if I would see team regression being as issue as much as the Eastern Conference not being as horrible as it has been this year. A 3rd and 4th seed barely over .500? That's as bad as it gets.

  20. #114
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    Quote Mess wrote: View Post
    Compared to the earlier hype of "the top 4-5 players are likely franchise players", "have the potential to be stars" is indeed a downgrade. Not a reason to be down on the draft, but I do think 1st round picks are being slightly overvalued.
    No doubt on that front. Hyped beyond actual reality........at first.

    I feel like the media tide now has gone the other direction and are downplaying the talent based on a 1/3 of a season of college ball. Heard Bill and Jalen felt there are more Griffins and Pierces than Lebrons and Durrants in this draft. Griffin is improving and is still young to the league so the jury is still deliberating there, but what's wrong with drafting Paul Pierce? He's a HOF'er.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Could you find a quote or story that makes it clear it was meant to be for this year?

    I've yet to come across one. It would be appreciated if you could.
    I'm going to go back and watch the tapes!lol

    Seriously though if Masai was talking in semantics (which I don't think he was. Going to go back to see the question he was asked as I felt it pertained to this season), I'm not impressed.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Don't get too caught up in what "they" say.

    They didn't predict MCW would look as he has or Lillard in a draft prior to that. I remember 'they' saying that Curry would have issues in the pros because he wasn't a 1 and was too short for the 2 and Harden was a stretch being selected in the top 5. "They" also said that Drummond had a low motor and wasn't coachable, etc, etc.

    Everyone has opinions but if you really look and watch some of the potential prospects in this draft and compare it to the previous 5 drafts, this has the chance to be a very good draft class.
    Are we talking about the same 'they'?
    I was talking specifically about Jalen Rose and Bill Simmons, and I don't think any sane sports fan would get caught up in what they say.

    Anyway I agree with what you're saying, it seems the trend that people are always more down on drafts than they should be. BUT, they are talking about something else. They are speaking specifically about these player's ceilings, and their ability to be transcendent athletes like Durant or LeBron - which is what many have been saying about this draft class.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    I'm going to go back and watch the tapes!lol

    Seriously though if Masai was talking in semantics (which I don't think he was. Going to go back to see the question he was asked as I felt it pertained to this season), I'm not impressed.
    Personally, I took that comment as being an over-arcing statement of change in philosophy/management principle (with permanence)....all moves going forward shall therefore be made to avoid the "rut".

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    But MLS soccer is not bound by a collective bargaining agreement.
    But it does have the insane circumstance of being run as a single company with each team being a franchise, as I learned from that Star article. Regardless, each league has its own snags, and TL seems to enjoy navigating through them.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think you are right but it will be tough to break out the cheque book after 2015-16 season. 2016-17 currently has $20M in cap holds for JV/Ross plus $9.5 for DD plus hypothetical $9M for Lowry plus possible 2014 pick, 2015 pick, possible 2 2016 firsts, then is Patterson resigned? What about Amir? Vasquez?
    DeMar + Amir + 1st round picks clears the money to either trade or s/t for a max level player, while also having the asset clout to make it enticing for another team.

    Personally, I like the sound of a deal with DeMar + Amir + 2014 first +2016 first for Kevin Love being the principles, and then leaving it to TL and MU to figure out how to get Love to re-sign. This, I think, would get us well on the way to being out of no man's land.
    Last edited by JimiCliff; Tue Jan 28th, 2014 at 07:26 PM.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Why do you think that is fans want the team to build through the draft to add talent as being doom and gloom?

    In a years time if this team is back in the lottery because they took the easy road again, what will you say? "well it was good while it lasted"

    What's not to get? if they don't win the division they will most likely end up in the 7-11 spot which both Masai and Lieweke has indicated is no mans land.

    Nowadays if you don't agree with the herd, you are subject to intense criticism, when really it should just be respected as a difference of opinion. I've seen this Raptor movie before and I'm not interested in a sequel.
    1st bold: I can't answer the "why", because I don't think wanting to build through the draft is doom and gloom. The doom and gloom I speak of went much further than that simple concept. Besides, we have built what some feel is a solid core to grow/work with, via the draft already. DeMar, JV, Ross, all lottery picks, all 21-24 years old, with two only in their soph year, and Lowry (27) obtained with a 12th pick in a weak draft (Steven Adams). You think these guys aren't worth building with? Sorry you feel that way, but what makes you sure we'd get better prospects in the next few drafts and be better in 5-6 years? We already have 3 promising lottery picks that have plenty of time to grow together. I'm in favour of taking our GMs approach and seeing how these guys come together as a team, while making decisions upon opportunities only he knows about. They're looking very promising, while providing us great basketball to cheer for. I see no dark clouds over this. Why invent them?

    2nd bold: "Because they took the easy road"? I don't see them taking any easy road, so that's a moot question.

    3rd bold: "What's not to get?" I thought I presented a scenario that states what I don't get. What part that do you not get? I'm talking about appreciating the current reality, rather than shitting on the doom and gloom imagination future. Not "ifs" that the odds are against, but even if that happened this year, that's far from saying we're locked into "no man's land". Rome wasn't build in a day, nor will the Raptors be, whichever route is taken.

    4th bold: I agree, though I think we differ on our opinion of who "the herd" is. I mean, shit, it appears people who want to cheer for the team have to create a distinct thread to do so, and hide from the tank herd. That's pretty sad

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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    But it does have the insane circumstance of being run as a single company with each team being a franchise, as I learned from that Star article. Regardless, each league has its own snags, and TL seems to enjoy navigating through them .
    I have no doubt MLSE will spend. My point is the collective bargaining agreement makes it difficult to spend big money without Bird Rights. Raptors have to get guys on their roster first, then they might have a year or two of possible big free agent signings, and hen have to start extending their own thereby eliminating free agency.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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