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Thread: The * to Masai's proclamation of, "We will not be caught in no man's land."

  1. #121
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    1st bold: I can't answer the "why", because I don't think wanting to build through the draft is doom and gloom. The doom and gloom I speak of went much further than that simple concept. Besides, we have built what some feel is a solid core to grow/work with, via the draft already. DeMar, JV, Ross, all lottery picks, all 21-24 years old, with two only in their soph year, and Lowry (27) obtained with a 12th pick in a weak draft (Steven Adams). You think these guys aren't worth building with? Sorry you feel that way, but what makes you sure we'd get better prospects in the next few drafts and be better in 5-6 years? We already have 3 promising lottery picks that have plenty of time to grow together. I'm in favour of taking our GMs approach and seeing how these guys come together as a team, while making decisions upon opportunities only he knows about. They're looking very promising, while providing us great basketball to cheer for. I see no dark clouds over this. Why invent them?

    2nd bold: "Because they took the easy road"? I don't see them taking any easy road, so that's a moot question.

    3rd bold: "What's not to get?" I thought I presented a scenario that states what I don't get. What part that do you not get? I'm talking about appreciating the current reality, rather than shitting on the doom and gloom imagination future. Not "ifs" that the odds are against, but even if that happened this year, that's far from saying we're locked into "no man's land". Rome wasn't build in a day, nor will the Raptors be, whichever route is taken.

    4th bold: I agree, though I think we differ on our opinion of who "the herd" is. I mean, shit, it appears people who want to cheer for the team have to create a distinct thread to do so, and hide from the tank herd. That's pretty sad
    I prefer to address specifics and keep it ball related so I'll be more clear.

    You still haven't addressed what you meant by doom and gloom. Your original comment was in relation to what I thought were fans who didn't see this team as currently constructed as a good thing. You mention above there are those who think we have a solid core and they are young. This is where much of my argument stems from. Who thinks this?
    I am not intending to insult anyone so I apologize in advance but what real ball fan thinks this team with the players they do is a team that if kept together can achieve more than a first round, maybe 2nd round ceiling? You need talent to win in this league and to be an elite team it usually has to be talent of that variety. Championship teams are not built in a year..... its a process, but it doesn't start in my opinion getting locked into players and a team that quite frankly are not taking your franchise to the next level.

    I think you build around draft picks and end up paying those that take your team to the next level. Ross, Derozan, Lowry etc are not those guys, so yes, I would rather take my chances letting Masai do his thing in the draft and try and hit on a Carter or McGrady (both top 10 picks) rather than a Derozan or Ross (both top 10 picks). You say these players are looking promising and I ask you promising for what? There is no inventing of clouds here. This script is similar to what I have seen the past 5 years. I'm not saying it won't be different but how are you so certain it won't be? Elevating players into roles beyond their talent level. Sound familiar? Paying money and becoming capped out without a real star player. Sound familiar? These are valid concerns.

    You are saying to appreciate the current reality but have yet to acknowledge the potential outcomes of riding with this team and moving forward with this squad. No one said we're locked into no man's land but not many people refer back to that comment made by the GM (and supported by the team president) and acknowledge that if they do not win the division, this is a highly likely scenario for them (7-11).

    The herd I am referring to is the 'don't worry be happy' part of the fanbase.

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  3. #122
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Why can't you do both? Why can't you have some success this year while at the same time building for tomorrow's success? It's not an either or proposition and the two are not mutually exclusive. People are so caught up in the "tanking vs. sacrifice the future to win now" choice. Those aren't the only options.

    The team has a good GM and a solid front office. It has new ownership that appears to be willing to spend money. It has roster and cap flexibility. It has three good young players. Perhaps, and let me just throw this out there, the team can have some success this year and next while making the necessary additions to go from playoff team to contender. If you are prepared to accept the possibility that they could win the draft lottery, get he next Lebron James and win a championship 6 years later, surely you can contemplate other possibilities?
    Of course you do have both. I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

    I was merely explaining the frame of mind of the fans who prefer to "save for the future". There are a few folks on this forum who admittedly can't understand why anyone would do so.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  4. #123
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    I think this team can be a good team without having to tank TBH. But the key in all of this will be grabbing a good pick this drat between 8-16 which i think is more than realistic to do. There are a lot of quality players here and a lot of underrated potential stars in that group like Noah Vonleh, GR3 and PG like Ennis. Those are the 3 i would really love having. Add a player like that to this rotation, let it grow and then i think we try our luck in FA 2016 as long as we properly set ourselves up for it. I would love the ability to trade amir and our first rounder this year or one from 2016 for a pick around 10 this year at the draft. Is this somewhat realistic? Your guess is as good as mine but i could see Amir + 20th pick for say 10th pick depending on the team.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    I prefer to address specifics and keep it ball related so I'll be more clear.

    You still haven't addressed what you meant by doom and gloom. Your original comment was in relation to what I thought were fans who didn't see this team as currently constructed as a good thing. You mention above there are those who think we have a solid core and they are young. This is where much of my argument stems from. Who thinks this?
    I am not intending to insult anyone so I apologize in advance but what real ball fan thinks this team with the players they do is a team that if kept together can achieve more than a first round, maybe 2nd round ceiling? You need talent to win in this league and to be an elite team it usually has to be talent of that variety. Championship teams are not built in a year..... its a process, but it doesn't start in my opinion getting locked into players and a team that quite frankly are not taking your franchise to the next level.

    I think you build around draft picks and end up paying those that take your team to the next level. Ross, Derozan, Lowry etc are not those guys, so yes, I would rather take my chances letting Masai do his thing in the draft and try and hit on a Carter or McGrady (both top 10 picks) rather than a Derozan or Ross (both top 10 picks). You say these players are looking promising and I ask you promising for what? There is no inventing of clouds here. This script is similar to what I have seen the past 5 years. I'm not saying it won't be different but how are you so certain it won't be? Elevating players into roles beyond their talent level. Sound familiar? Paying money and becoming capped out without a real star player. Sound familiar? These are valid concerns.

    You are saying to appreciate the current reality but have yet to acknowledge the potential outcomes of riding with this team and moving forward with this squad. No one said we're locked into no man's land but not many people refer back to that comment made by the GM (and supported by the team president) and acknowledge that if they do not win the division, this is a highly likely scenario for them (7-11).

    The herd I am referring to is the 'don't worry be happy' part of the fanbase.
    Geeez, obviously I'm not appreciated by a certain old boy's club here.

    Ugh, does your mother know you're this obnoxious on-line? Or does she pay no attention to parental controls? First your "herd" comment, now only people who agree with your absolute expertise in talent assessment, and how to manage the team, are "real fans". Well, maybe you're not so much part of the doom and gloom crowd, but more part of the offensively pompous cabal. However, I'll honour your demand for specifics, to a degree. Oh, mustn't forget. I don't intend on insulting anybody, but
    apologize in advance if I do.

    "I prefer to address specifics and keep it ball related so I'll be more clear."

    I'm not sure why you felt obliged to share that, but in itself, never mind combined with the rest of this response, it comes across as a self-righteous, snotty nose in the air attitude. It doesn't become anybody, and doesn't lead to reasonable discussion. Just saying.

    "You still haven't addressed what you meant by doom and gloom."

    Whoaa! I answered all your questions, but you didn't ask what I meant by the term. You asked me why I felt a particular cliche (build true the draft), by itself, spelled doom and gloom. My answer to that was that it's simply not what I feel, so I can hardly explain why I feel what I don't feel. BTW, you came on to me, remember? I answered what you asked, but now you'd like to make an issue of what I mean by doom and gloom. As in keeping it "ball related", right?

    Man, I didn't realize using a common expression, whose basic meaning is public knowledge, needed much explaining. It was used, as it usually is, to describe my opinion of a general malaise surrounding much of the discussion of quite a few people. I've no interest in scanning through dozens of threads to provide many specifics, as in the detail you seem to be seeking, but some of your comments right here fit into the general picture, so let's deal with them.

    "Who thinks this? .....I am not intending to insult anyone so I apologize in advance but what real ball fan thinks this team with the players they do is a team that if kept together can achieve more than a first round, maybe 2nd round ceiling?"

    Seriously? Saying you don't intend to insult, and apologizing in advance, makes insulting okay here? Say it isn't so. You really do need to get that young nose out of the air though. People who don't agree with you aren't "real ball fans"? Same attitude as your "herd" comment, tsk tsk. What irks me most though, is that from what I see of this little performance, I'd bet you're one of those people that cries foul if someone pokes back with a better strike. Man.

    The rest of that paragraph, there's nothing to argue. Need talent, not built in a year, don't get locked in. Yup, agree with all that. Does that make me a "real fan"? Oh wait, maybe not. Better get through the rest.

    Most of the next paragraph, starting with "I think....", is basically you stating how certain you are that the current players, specifically Lowry/ DeMar/ Ross, can't take the team to the next level. I get that you feel that way, but what's with demanding specifics, while you only provide cliche riddled "real fan" absolutes of your self-aggrandised opinions? You're certainly entitled to your opinions, but unless you've got some credentials higher than many people in the NBA, they're nothing but a fan's unqualified "expertise". A little humble pie would make discussions with un-real fans a tad more reasonable. I'll respond specifically to your last few points in that paragraph.

    "This script is similar to what I have seen the past 5 years. I'm not saying it won't be different but how are you so certain it won't be?"

    I'm not sure what "script" you're talking about, but since the current make-up of this team, from team make-up and performance, to team management and financial flexibility, is so different than any of the last 5 years, it's rather elementary to be certain it's not the same.

    "Elevating players into roles beyond their talent level. Sound familiar? Paying money and becoming capped out without a real star player. Sound familiar?"

    Here we go with more obnoxiousness, with these "sound familiar" jabs. Oh, they certainly sound familiar, as I think I've seen them used in some other diatribes. However, that doesn't make such statements, however often their repeated, accurate and applicable. You know what also sounds familiar? That we need at least 2 all-star level players. Is being at that level being a "real star"? Guess what? Two of the guys you cited as not being able to get the team to the next level, are very much in the mix for all-star selections, and I bet at least one of them does get selected. I know you think a lot of your opinions, but would you accept that DWade has a tad more expertise in judging SG talent that he faces in the NBA? He and other NBAers have come out and said DeMar belongs in the ASG. Please have another piece of humble pie, or backup your "address specifics", "bball related" declarations with your credentials and/or expertise to judge the team's player talent, and potential for growth, with such absolute certainty that you have stated.

    Look, at the end of the day, I'd agree that this team likely needs an upgrade or two to get to championship level, if that's even possible over the next few years, with LeBron in his prime. Perhaps you're not old enough to remember, but several hall of famers didn't sniff a ring while MJ was in his prime. But, but as you say, "championships are not built in a year". Whether you wish to accept it or not, this team has young up and coming players, on good contracts, other tradeable assets, far more financial flexibility going forward, and an intelligent GM with his goals in the right place. Ignoring all that and staying stuck on this "we're in no man's land" is in fact "inventing clouds", imo.

  6. #125
    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Let me preface my comments by saying I was all for a tank this year until the Rudy Gay trade. If you have a bad team, be as bad as reasonably possible.

    I posed this question elsewhere a while back. Other than the San Antonio Spurs with Tim Duncan, which was the last #1 overall pick to lead the team that drafted him to the NBA Championship? It was Hakeem Olajuwan drafted 30 years ago in 1984. And even Hakeem's Rockets didn't win until his 9th season in 1994. David Robinson did win a championship with the Spurs, but it took 11 years and another tank to pair him with Duncan. Ewing's Knicks never won the big prize, nor did Shaq's Magic or Lebron's Cavs.

    Getting potential elite talent in the draft sounds great, and yeah, the higher you draft, the better chance you have of acquiring it, but it very rarely leads to the be-all-and-end-all that some advocate. By some, I mean those who say things like "we don't want to be like the Atlanta Hawks - 6 years of playoffs without getting past the 2nd round." I agree they are not the definition of success, but it isn't the definition of futility they make it out to be either. What the heck is the problem with delivering 6 years of quality entertainment for most of your fanbase?

    I'm not going to apologize for the fact that I'm enjoying watching the Raptors recent play far more than most years past. Personally, I'd like Masai to stay the course with our youngsters and picks - I thankfully don't see any Jermaine O'Neal type trades on the horizon. I'm not an NBA talent evaluator like some on this board. I can't definitively say whether or not DeRozan, Ross and Lowry are players who can or can't take us to the next level. For that I'm willing to wait and see, If Ujiri can acquire an asset from a team in need of 3pt shooting like the Grizz for Novak, great. I'm even OK f Hansbrough can net an asset, be it a youngster or a pick.

    As far as Lowry is concerned, as long as the team is winning more than losing, I guess he stays, and I'm OK with that. As for his his Free Agency, I have no clue what will happen. He has had injuries, though nothing chronic I know of, yet he's still 33rd in Win Shares the past 3+ seasons, He won't come cheap. But I'm not going to worry about it either.
    Last edited by 3inthekeon; Wed Jan 29th, 2014 at 01:29 PM. Reason: spelling error

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  8. #126
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    Let me preface my comments by saying I was all for a tank this year until the Rudy Gay trade. If you have a bad team, be as bad as reasonably possible.

    I posed this question elsewhere a while back. Other than the San Antonio Spurs with Tim Duncan, which was the last #1 overall pick to lead the team that drafted him to the NBA Championship? It was Hakeem Olajuwan drafted 30 years ago in 1984. And even Hakeem's Rockets didn't win until his 9th season in 1994. David Robinson did win a championship with the Spurs, but it took 11 years and another tank to pair him with Duncan. Ewing's Knicks never won the big prize, nor did Shaq's Magic or Lebron's Cavs.

    Getting potential elite talent in the draft sounds great, and yeah, the higher you draft, the better chance you have of acquiring it, but it very rarely leads to the be-all-and-end-all that some advocate. By some, I mean those who say things like "we don't want to be like the Atlanta Hawks - 6 years of playoffs without getting past the 2nd round." I agree they are not the definition of success, but it isn't the definition of futility they make it out to be either. What the heck is the problem with delivering 6 years of quality entertainment for most of your fanbase?

    I'm not going to apologize for the fact that I'm enjoying watching the Raptors recent play far more than most years past. Personally, I'd like Masai to stay the course with our youngsters and picks - I thankfully don't see any Jermaine O'Neal type trades on the horizon. I'm not an NBA talent evaluator like some on this board. I can't definitively say whether or not DeRozan, Ross and Lowry are players who can or can't take us to the next level. For that I'm willing to wait and see, If Ujiri can acquire an asset from a team in need of 3pt shooting like the Grizz for Novak, great. I'm even OK f Hansbrough can net an asset, be it a youngster or a pick.

    As far as Lowry is concerned, as long as the team is winning more than losing, I guess he stays, and I'm OK with that. As for his his Free Agency, I have no clue what will happen. He has had injuries, though nothing chronic I know of, yet he's still 33rd in Win Shares the past 3+ seasons, He won't come cheap. But I'm not going to worry about it either.
    Your second paragraph raises an interesting point though.

    The #1 pick is highly unrealistic to strive for. You can't make plans based on specific probabilities such as a 25% shot at #1 by being worst. I'm all about the top end of the draft though - like top 5 or 6. If you go back to '84 though you will see that every championship team but 1 drafted the cornerstone of their teams (Pistons - I'm not counting Darko lol; Lakers drafted Kobe on draft day, I'm giving them that one - same with Dallas) and overwhelming majority were top 6 (Exceptions: Kobe/Shaq Lakers, '04 Pistons, '08 C's - but they did trade a top5 pick to get Allen).

    When you look at Isiah's Pistons, MJ's Bulls, Hakeem's Rockets they were 8-9 years to win a title. In today's NBA that is how long teams can essentially control players they draft. Rookie deals are 4 years and extensions are 4-5 years. When you talk about building a team, 8-9 years is when teams should be peaking. If not you're doing a Colangelo-style Raptors building and going nowhere.

    In your 2nd last paragraph, you shouldn't apologize - no one should. There is no one way guaranteed to lead to success as so many different teams have shown. The poster who said everyone should sit back and enjoy - absolutely! - but we can still shoot the shit along the way!
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  10. #127
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    This topic has got to have the most comments that resembles an essay.

    Good reads though. Most definitely.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    This topic has got to have the most comments that resembles an essay.

    Good reads though. Most definitely.
    Twitter has ruined me. I have this terrible habit of skimming through any post longer than 3 lines :|
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Twitter has ruined me. I have this terrible habit of skimming through any post longer than 3 lines :|
    I learned to appreciate the long ass posts. When you're on the go & trying to save data, they come clutch. Lol

    Sent from my C6506 using Tapatalk
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  13. #130
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    I learned to appreciate the long ass posts. When you're on the go & trying to save data, they come clutch. Lol

    Sent from my C6506 using Tapatalk
    Wind Mobile's unlimited data plan, dude. $40.

    95% of the GTA may be out of range, but you can always brag about unlimited data
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  14. #131
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Wind Mobile's unlimited data plan, dude. $40.

    95% of the GTA may be out of range, but you can always brag about unlimited data
    I don't know how I feel about wind mobile's coverage. I don't like being caught in 'no man's land'.

    Baa dum tss

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  16. #132
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    Quote nilanka wrote: View Post
    twitter has ruined me. I have this terrible habit of skimming through any post longer than 3 lines :|
    tl;dr

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  18. #133
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Default From Chad Ford's Chat Jan 30th

    How much of this is someone who is plugged in and how much of this is someone who knew the storyline 5 weeks ago and hasn't bothered to change it? Are we kidding ourselves with the current success of this team?

    Allen (Toronto)

    Hey Chad, love your chats! With the Raptors playing as well as they've played in a long time, why hasn't espn talked about them as much as the top teams. They are sitting in 3rd place in the East and their defense has been stellar...
    Chad Ford (1:17 PM)

    They are just 3 games over .500. The next closest team is the Heat who are 9 1/2 games ahead of them in the East midway through the season. They are actively shopping perhaps their best player this season -- Kyle Lowry. And would really love it if they could get in a position to win the No. 1 pick -- not home court advantage in the first round. That's why.
    It's not just about Lowry...It's about the 3 spot.

  19. #134
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    How much of this is someone who is plugged in and how much of this is someone who knew the storyline 5 weeks ago and hasn't bothered to change it? Are we kidding ourselves with the current success of this team?

    Allen (Toronto)

    Hey Chad, love your chats! With the Raptors playing as well as they've played in a long time, why hasn't espn talked about them as much as the top teams. They are sitting in 3rd place in the East and their defense has been stellar...
    Chad Ford (1:17 PM)

    They are just 3 games over .500. The next closest team is the Heat who are 9 1/2 games ahead of them in the East midway through the season. They are actively shopping perhaps their best player this season -- Kyle Lowry. And would really love it if they could get in a position to win the No. 1 pick -- not home court advantage in the first round. That's why.
    Yeah, I can't figure out Ford.

    I'm thinking he is remaining static in a dynamic situation.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  20. #135
    Raptors Republic Starter peanutwoozle's Avatar
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    I don't consider the 8th seed no-mans land at all IMO. Lots of teams start there (OKC and Chicago come to mind), we are not capped out anymore, and are starting to look like a well-balanced team.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    How much of this is someone who is plugged in and how much of this is someone who knew the storyline 5 weeks ago and hasn't bothered to change it? Are we kidding ourselves with the current success of this team?

    Allen (Toronto)

    Hey Chad, love your chats! With the Raptors playing as well as they've played in a long time, why hasn't espn talked about them as much as the top teams. They are sitting in 3rd place in the East and their defense has been stellar...
    Chad Ford (1:17 PM)

    They are just 3 games over .500. The next closest team is the Heat who are 9 1/2 games ahead of them in the East midway through the season. They are actively shopping perhaps their best player this season -- Kyle Lowry. And would really love it if they could get in a position to win the No. 1 pick -- not home court advantage in the first round. That's why.
    I think a lot of the hohum is because the Raps dont have a very good historical record. They are going to have to get to the finish line for many of these pundits to talk seriously about the team and they will probably still say that it is an aberration. Only a second round appearance will generate some "respect".

    The other aspect of Ford's comments was that MU has everyone confused about what his plans really are. Personally I am still of the opinion that if he gets an offer too good to refuse for anyone on the team he'll do the deal. Its a good position to be in and who really cares what SAS or his joker sidekick really have to say right now.

  22. #137
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
    I don't consider the 8th seed no-mans land at all IMO. Lots of teams start there (OKC and Chicago come to mind), we are not capped out anymore, and are starting to look like a well-balanced team.
    Re sign Lowry and they are for 2014-15.

    Lots of space in 2015-16.

    Pretty much capped out again in 2016-17 due to cap holds on JV and Ross.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #138
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Re sign Lowry and they are for 2014-15.

    Lots of space in 2015-16.

    Pretty much capped out again in 2016-17 due to cap holds on JV and Ross.
    Not a team pennies away from luxury taxes either though, we have some things to work with, we still have the MLE, as well, we have a 4.5Mil TPE (from the Rudy Gay trade) which we can use to take on a player either in trade or S&T, not to mention, we can use our own expiring contracts in a trade as well.

  24. #139
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
    Not a team pennies away from luxury taxes either though, we have some things to work with, we still have the MLE, as well, we have a 4.5Mil TPE (from the Rudy Gay trade) which we can use to take on a player either in trade or S&T, not to mention, we can use our own expiring contracts in a trade as well.
    You probably don't care but I've removed you from the ignore list

    Raptors are also really young with a lot of room for internal growth, I don't think we're on the dreaded 'treadmill'.

  25. #140
    Raptors Republic All-Star Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Twitter has ruined me. I have this terrible habit of skimming through any post longer than 3 lines :|
    Don't I know it.

    :P

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