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Thread: Now I Know Why They Call Bargnani "Ill Mago"!

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    Default Now I Know Why They Call Bargnani "Ill Mago"!

    Because he disappears when the Raps need him Most , the most inconsistent player in the league !Watching him play just makes me sick im glad i didnt jump in the "Bargs is the most improved player in the league!" bandwagon because i knew he was goin to disappear like he usually does, BC should have traded him when his stock was high at the deadline and gotten us a true center that actually wants Play night in and night out !

    How many more years are the Raps going to give him to "develop" and become the next Nowitzki like everyone keeps saying he was going to become ! I say enough and bench this guy !! start Rasho, Evans, POB anyone that wants to play !!!

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    Raptors Republic Starter cornbreadd's Avatar
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    Am I the only rational and reasonable person in these forums. Benching the guy is going to achieve absolutely nothing, and its really not going to make him more consistent. I know he's playing like a wet dog turd at the moment, but that's no reason to lose faith.

    I'm sure he'll turn it around, as he isn't lazy or unmotivated to work on his game

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    Because he disappears when the Raps need him Most , the most inconsistent player in the league !Watching him play just makes me sick im glad i didnt jump in the "Bargs is the most improved player in the league!" bandwagon because i knew he was goin to disappear like he usually does, BC should have traded him when his stock was high at the deadline and gotten us a true center that actually wants Play night in and night out !

    How many more years are the Raps going to give him to "develop" and become the next Nowitzki like everyone keeps saying he was going to become ! I say enough and bench this guy !! start Rasho, Evans, POB anyone that wants to play !!!
    When was his stock high? We all need to sit tight with Bargnani. He's been steadily improving since entering the league but there is no way they're getting want they would want for him. I think Bargnani is here until Colangelo is not.

    Everyone is not saying he's the next Nowitzki. Some have said it but I would imagine there is at least an equal number in other camps saying he's going to develope into the mold of Gasol or someone else or himself, a unique talent on his own.

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    When was his stock high? We all need to sit tight with Bargnani. He's been steadily improving since entering the league but there is no way they're getting want they would want for him. I think Bargnani is here until Colangelo is not.

    Everyone is not saying he's the next Nowitzki. Some have said it but I would imagine there is at least an equal number in other camps saying he's going to develope into the mold of Gasol or someone else or himself, a unique talent on his own.
    His stock was high last month when he was playing great D, playing well offensively and was getting recognition by the "media" about him coming into his own. Maybe you never said he is the next Novitzki but everyone else including toronto media has been comparing him to Dirk since he came here and u just dont want agree with that statement.

    Thats the problem too many high expectations just because he was 1 overall pick we got to realize that toronto fucked up and made the wrong choice they could have picked Gay,Aldrige,Roy but they didnt so now just realize he will never be a 20 and 10 guy, he is just a bench player.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    His stock was high last month when he was playing great D, playing well offensively and was getting recognition by the "media" about him coming into his own.
    ... So you think he hit his peak ability/impact last month at age 23?

    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    Maybe you never said he is the next Novitzki but everyone else including toronto media has been comparing him to Dirk since he came here and u just dont want agree with that statement.
    No, I've read many articles where people were not comparing him to Dirk Nowitki. "Everyone" implies everyone. I am telling you the everyone isn't comparing him to Dirk. When I say everyone, I don't mean me. I am referring to media people.

    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    Thats the problem too many high expectations just because he was 1 overall pick we got to realize that toronto fucked up and made the wrong choice they could have picked Gay,Aldrige,Roy but they didnt so now just realize he will never be a 20 and 10 guy, he is just a bench player.
    First of all, back in the day no one was suggesting Roy was a #1 pick. People were arguing if he was a top five, which turns out he wasn't and with many suggesting he may be one of the most NBA ready but with less potential than the names I am about to mention. Second, the same can be said about Gay. The names being batted around most for #1 leading up to the draft were Andrea Bargnani, LaMarcus Aldridge and Adam Morrison. If you're going to sit here and criticize Colangelo for not taking Roy then you better scold Charlotte(drafted a bust), Chicago(drafted a bust) and Atlanta(drafted a bust). If you want to scold them for not drafting Gay then add Minnesota(drafted a disappointment) too. If you look at the top five (Bargnani, Aldridge, Morrison(bust), Thomas(bust) and Williams(bust)) I am baffled as to how you can criticize Colangelo for drafting Andrea Bargnani. Its not fair and doesn't make sense. The man drafted a good player and by my count dodged three hollow point bullets.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Mar 8th, 2010 at 11:29 AM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    '... So you think he hit his peak ability/impact last month at age 23?'

    i know it's a small point, and may seem trivial, but he's 24, and will be 25 when next season starts. let that sink in. just because his game doesn't seem to advance doesn't mean he stops aging. he's in his 4th NBA season, after playing professionally in europe for 4 years. i think it's time to put to rest the notion that he has much more of a ceiling than we've already seen.

    that being said, i think he's a remarkably talented player, but it seems as though he's simply going to become a guy who never quite makes 'the leap.' and that's fine. i can see him being an excellent 6th or 7th man/1st big off the bench for a contending team that wouldn't need to rely on him for above-average D or rebounding at the 5 spot, especially a team looking to create match-up problems. for the raps...i just don't see him ever going into that role.

    welcome to the treadmill, baby! i can't wait to see what this team does over the summer. should be interesting watching BC try to build something out of the pu pu platter that remains should bosh be dealt or walk away. hell, even if he stays, it's not as though they have the resources to do anything other than sign a guy to the MLE.
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    ... So you think he hit his peak ability/impact last month at age 23?



    No, I've read many articles where people were not comparing him to Dirk Nowitki. "Everyone" implies everyone. I am telling you the everyone isn't comparing him to Dirk. When I say everyone, I don't mean me. I am referring to media people.



    First of all, back in the day no one was suggesting Roy was a #1 pick. People were arguing if he was a top five, which turns out he wasn't and with many suggesting he may be one of the most NBA ready but with less potential than the names I am about to mention. Second, the same can be said about Gay. The names being batted around most for #1 leading up to the draft were Andrea Bargnani, LaMarcus Aldridge and Adam Morrison. If you're going to sit here and criticize Colangelo for not taking Roy then you better scold Charlotte(drafted a bust), Chicago(drafted a bust) and Atlanta(drafted a bust). If you want to scold them for not drafting Gay then add Minnesota(drafted a disappointment) too. If you look at the top five (Bargnani, Aldridge, Morrison(bust), Thomas(bust) and Williams(bust)) I am baffled as to how you can criticize Colangelo for drafting Andrea Bargnani. Its not fair and doesn't make sense. The man drafted a good player and by my count dodged three hollow point bullets.
    First of all he is 24 and he is turning 25 in 6months, yeah u read many articles NOW that he is not the next Dirk because people are starting to realize he will never be an elitie playerbut evrytime he plays great for a stretch people start with the talk again going as far as asking Dirk himself "what do you think of Bargniani?" HAHA makes me laugh .

    Second of all it was down to Gay and Bargs at the time and Aldridge would have been the safe bet pick but we had Bosh at the 4 already so BC went with the european kid with a 3 point shot and guess what ?? it FAILED!! yeah he drafted a good player, but a starting 5 he is not, we can argue about him and his potential but i can't see the future and how its going to turn out . I can see the last 4 years and he has improved but he just doesnt have it to bring it night in and night out i dont care how much "potential" he has.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    yeah u read many articles NOW that he is not the next Dirk because people are starting to realize he will never be an elitie playerbut evrytime he plays great for a stretch people start with the talk again going as far as asking Dirk himself "what do you think of Bargniani?" HAHA makes me laugh .
    No, I read many articles back when he was about to be drafted and in his rookie season where people were suggesting that a Dirk Nowitzki comparison was not valid. Yes, I've read Nowitzki comparisons but those people are everyone. I also read Pau Gasol and Raef LaFrentz comparisons but you don't hear me proclaiming that the entire world thinks he's Raef LaFrentz. Many people back then were criticizing the pick and that number has been greatly reduced. You have it backwards my friend.

    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    Second of all it was down to Gay and Bargs at the time and Aldridge would have been the safe bet pick but we had Bosh at the 4 already so BC went with the european kid with a 3 point shot
    I remember quite clearly in the days leading up to the draft, even the Fan590 was talking about it, Bargnani or Aldridge with rumors of Morrison being the dark horse.

    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    ...and guess what ?? it FAILED!! yeah he drafted a good player, but a starting 5 he is not, we can argue about him and his potential but i can't see the future and how its going to turn out . I can see the last 4 years and he has improved but he just doesnt have it to bring it night in and night out i dont care how much "potential" he has.
    How did it fail? They drafted one of the best talents in the draft and on the consensus top five board they avoid three busts. Any time you go out and land a big talent its a success. Whether or not he remains with the team is fit for a separate debate but he is a very skilled player who I am sure many teams would be interested in.

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    No, I read many articles back when he was about to be drafted and in his rookie season where people were suggesting that a Dirk Nowitzki comparison was not valid. Yes, I've read Nowitzki comparisons but those people are everyone. I also read Pau Gasol and Raef LaFrentz comparisons but you don't hear me proclaiming that the entire world thinks he's Raef LaFrentz. Many people back then were criticizing the pick and that number has been greatly reduced. You have it backwards my friend.



    I remember quite clearly in the days leading up to the draft, even the Fan590 was talking about it, Bargnani or Aldridge with rumors of Morrison being the dark horse.



    How did it fail? They drafted one of the best talents in the draft and on the consensus top five board they avoid three busts. Any time you go out and land a big talent its a success. Whether or not he remains with the team is fit for a separate debate but he is a very skilled player who I am sure many teams would be interested in.
    Many people outside of canada criticized the pick. The media here and anyone else that agreed with it thought Nowitzki. Yeah and i remember ESPN quite clrealy it was down to Gay and Bargs never heard of BC trying to draft Aldridge he has the same qualities Bosh has mid range shot, low post game, he's even 6'10 240 for fucks sake haha.

    There you go with again ,this time its not "upside","potential", its "talent" ok so if it's up to you leave him in there for another 4 years playing 2 months out of every season and mailing in the rest ?? The Bargs pick Failed because he is NOT A STARTING 5, he's a bench player who BC just gave a 50 mill extension to based on his "talent".

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    Yeah and i remember ESPN quite clrealy it was down to Gay and Bargs never heard of BC trying to draft Aldridge he has the same qualities Bosh has mid range shot, low post game, he's even 6'10 240 for fucks sake haha.
    You show me something where its stated its down to Gay and Bargnani because I don't remember Gay being seriously tossed around as a #1. If Gay was clearly one of the options there must be something out there to support it and what about what actually happened? Weird how he fell to the Rockets at #9 if he was being considered at the top...

    There has been a lot of talk about Raptors general manager Bryan Colangelo leaning towards drafting Italian forward Andrea Bargnani with the No.1 overall pick on July 28. But after yesterday's workout by LaMarcus Aldridge at the Air Canada Centre, that sentiment could change.

    Aldridge, a 6-foot-11 forward who averaged 15 points and 9.2 rebounds for Texas last season, reportedly impressed the Toronto braintrust in an individual workout.

    "He's making us think awfully long and hard," Jim Kelly, the Raptors director of player personnel, said. "The young man came in excellent condition. He's a skilled athlete with good footwork around the basket."

    Aldridge also is good friends with Bosh, and Kelly admitted that could factor in the team's decision-making.
    Slam! Sports



    Colangelo wants to add some toughness and some interior presence but feels that none of the top prospects - like Gonzaga forward Adam Morrison, Texas centre LaMarcus Aldridge, LSU forward Tyrus Thomas and Italian forward Andrea Bargnani - are likely to step in and contribute right away.
    NBA.com

    Rudy who?


    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    There you go with again ,this time its not "upside","potential", its "talent" ok so if it's up to you leave him in there for another 4 years playing 2 months out of every season and mailing in the rest ?? The Bargs pick Failed because he is NOT A STARTING 5, he's a bench player who BC just gave a 50 mill extension to based on his "talent".
    He is a starting 5. He's been starting at the 5 all season and hasn't been doing that bad a job. He has improved since last season. He had "talent", "potential" and "upside". It's not up to me to do anything. I am just telling you that I feel you're not being fair. They didn't draft Roy or Gay for the same reasons no one else did in the top five. They didn't draft Aldridge probably because he was too much like Bosh and they needed a bigger body in the middle long term. Bargnani had the size and talent.

    You complain about Bargnani's five year @ $50M but would you have been more comfortable with Aldridge's five years @ $65M? Is he really that much better than Bargnani? Let's think about the other realistic alternatives given what actually happened: Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas and Sheldon Williams.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Mar 8th, 2010 at 01:29 PM.

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    You complain about Bargnani's five year @ $50M but would you have been more comfortable with Aldridge's five years @ $65M? Is he really that much better than Bargnani? Let's think about the other realistic alternatives given what actually happened: Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas and Sheldon Williams.

    In some ways, I wish they drafted a bust that season. I'd rather have morrison kicking around for like 3 or 4 mil and then be done with him. Then maybe we would have sucked a bit more, get a better pick in a couple of drafts, and then we'd be in an entirely different boat.

    I'm not sold on bargnani being any better than what he is now. To my eyes, I feel like he's worse than he was last year. His stats are better, but I'm not so sure he has improved.

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    He is a starting 5. He's been starting at the 5 all season and hasn't been doing that bad a job. He has improved since last season. He had "talent", "potential" and "upside". It's not up to me to do anything. I am just telling you that I feel you're not being fair. They didn't draft Roy or Gay for the same reasons no one else did in the top five. They didn't draft Aldridge probably because he was too much like Bosh and they needed a bigger body in the middle long term. Bargnani had the size and talent.

    You complain about Bargnani's five year @ $50M but would you have been more comfortable with Aldridge's five years @ $65M? Is he really that much better than Bargnani? Let's think about the other realistic alternatives given what actually happened: Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas and Sheldon Williams.[/QUOTE]

    He's not a starting 5 because his interior defense is horrible , he doesnt rebound and help D is no where near it should be!! he turns it on and off whenever he wants !! Inconsistency is just a big thing for me i would be happy if he avag 15-10 and played solid D ALL YEAR instead he plays when he wants, Bosh goes down its his time to shine and win some games for the team and he runs and hides !!! if u like that thats your opinion .

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    My recollections of Rudy Gay and that draft was that Gay was seriously talked about as a top five pick and a possible first pick in the draft up until the final month ... around then the concerns over his work ethic + mentality grew and he dropped out of the picture.

    The odd mention here and there but most had him just outside the top five while still considering him one of the players with the most upside.

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    Imo, Bargs has all the physical tools and talent to be a v. good player in the NBA. The problem seems to be between the ears. Apart from the rebounding show me another player who can consistently post, hit a mid range, shoot a 3, dribble-drive, high free throw avg. and have pretty good hands ...and 7 ft. The closest I think is in fact Novitzki (a perennial all-star) who said not too long ago that AB is better than he was at the same age (dont know if he was being gracious but AB outplayed him in that game at the ACC). There is a problem of some sort but it has nothing to do with bb talent. Cant teach passion and bringing-it on a nightly basis.

    Now why was it that Ghreradini got hired?

    As far as getting something for him in a trade...there will always be a gm who thinks they know exactly what to do to change the man and its a movable contract for the potential I think.

    Trivia: Roy was actually flipped for Foye (to Minn.) draft day. How bad was that!

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote diddy wrote: View Post
    In some ways, I wish they drafted a bust that season. I'd rather have morrison kicking around for like 3 or 4 mil and then be done with him. Then maybe we would have sucked a bit more, get a better pick in a couple of drafts, and then we'd be in an entirely different boat.
    I believe there is a better solution than wishing for mediocrity for a chance at more mediocrity. This self defeating mentality of playing for the lotto, it has gotten the Raptors where in 15 years?

    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    He's not a starting 5 because his interior defense is horrible , he doesnt rebound and help D is no where near it should be!! he turns it on and off whenever he wants !!
    He's a center because Jay and Brian call him a center. Stats and opinion don't decide position, management does.

    He rebounds on defense, not on offense. Its hard to get offensive boards when your coach has you out on the perimeter. Can he improve in that part of his game? Certainly, I agree he needs more work but to say he "doesn't rebound" is pure b.s. Go read the stat line for this season. He's 37th in the league in defensive rebounding and seeing how you like to compare him to Dirk, he's only averaging 1.5 total rebounds less per game than him while playing four less minutes.


    Quote rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
    Inconsistency is just a big thing for me i would be happy if he avag 15-10 and played solid D ALL YEAR instead he plays when he wants, Bosh goes down its his time to shine and win some games for the team and he runs and hides !!! if u like that thats your opinion .
    The Raptors organization has never called him a star or the savior. Colangelo called him a project. He's made great improvement so far and I expect more to come seeing how he's still so young. Has been reported as hard working and dedicated.

    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    There is a problem of some sort but it has nothing to do with bb talent. Cant teach passion and bringing-it on a nightly basis.
    Not sure how you can question his passion for the game when all he wants to do year round is play ball. If he's not here, he's playing for his national team. I don't see anyone question Tim Duncan's cold exterior. Not everyone wears their heart on their sleeve. Consistency is an issue but that's got nothing to do with heart.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Mar 8th, 2010 at 03:51 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I believe there is a better solution than wishing for mediocrity for a chance at more mediocrity. This self defeating mentality of playing for the lotto, it has gotten the Raptors where in 15 years?



    He's a center because Jay and Brian call him a center. Stats and opinion don't decide position, management does.

    He rebounds on defense, not on offense. Its hard to get offensive boards when your coach has you out on the perimeter. Can he improve in that part of his game? Certainly, I agree he needs more work but to say he "doesn't rebound" is pure b.s. Go read the stat line for this season. He's 37th in the league in defensive rebounding and seeing how you like to compare him to Dirk, he's only averaging 1.5 total rebounds less per game than him while playing four less minutes.




    The Raptors organization has never called him a star or the savior. Colangelo called him a project. He's made great improvement so far and I expect more to come seeing how he's still so young. Has been reported as hard working and dedicated.



    Not sure how you can question his passion for the game when all he wants to do year round is play ball. If he's not here, he's playing for his national team. I don't see anyone question Tim Duncan's cold exterior. Not everyone wears their heart on their sleeve. Consistency is an issue but that's got nothing to do with heart.
    I never compared him to DIrk !! haha and i never wanted him to be a savior or franchise player all i want from the guy because i am a fan, is effort night and night out thats all, he's a different type of center we can all agree on that but to disappear complete in games is just unacceptable IMO. He may be hard working and have all the talent in the world but when it comes down to it he cant translate it to games on a nightly basis contribute somehow not just 11pts and -24 like on that philly game .

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Consistency is an issue and he did have a bad game on defense but you can't blame the low scoring on him. He did shoot 50% from the field. Its on Jay and the ball handlers to see that he gets his looks. He's the type of player where his offense fuels his overall game. Some of his best defensive nights have come on nights where he's been lights out and was being fed the ball. How does a guy, who's a key piece to the offense, play 40 minutes, shoot 50% from the field and only get ten shots? That's on Jay and the guards.

    I think Bargnani is going to have his ups and downs through his career, he's just one of those guys. It doesn't mean he can't help a team win a ring, he just can't be the #1.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Mar 8th, 2010 at 05:40 PM.

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    "Not sure how you can question his passion for the game when all he wants to do year round is play ball. If he's not here, he's playing for his national team. I don't see anyone question Tim Duncan's cold exterior. Not everyone wears their heart on their sleeve. Consistency is an issue but that's got nothing to do with heart. "

    I believe by writing "there is a problem of some sort...", I was suggesting I was unsure about the reason/s for his incontistency (as you put it). I would just say that he has a problem getting his nose dirty as is required to maintain an inside presence in the nba game. This was manifested when with CB absent it was incumbent on other big starters to bring it in all manner of ways. Do you honestly think he changed his game to be more assertive in any way?

    "Passion" has got nothing necessarily to do with going to work at one's job. Metaphorically, If one has to dig a ditch everyday as a job, it doesnt flow that you do it well or with enthusiasm. Like I said, imo, there is something missing (intensity is how I would describe "passion") on the court with Bargs which btw Duncan has in spades when he plays. And I hope it comes to him somehow.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    "Not sure how you can question his passion for the game when all he wants to do year round is play ball. If he's not here, he's playing for his national team. I don't see anyone question Tim Duncan's cold exterior. Not everyone wears their heart on their sleeve. Consistency is an issue but that's got nothing to do with heart. "
    So he showed he's not a leader on the team. He needs to be led. I already knew this.

    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    "Passion" has got nothing necessarily to do with going to work at one's job. Metaphorically, If one has to dig a ditch everyday as a job, it doesnt flow that you do it well or with enthusiasm. Like I said, imo, there is something missing (intensity is how I would describe "passion") on the court with Bargs which btw Duncan has in spades when he plays. And I hope it comes to him somehow.
    When I questioned your "passion" comment I mentioned love for the game, not ability. The man loves the game, you can't drag him off the court. He has passion. He doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve but he always looks focused, concentrated. There are two ends of the spectrum when it comes to showing "intensity", one is in your face like Garnett and the other is quite and methodical like Duncan. Both players are intense competitors, one just doesn't advertise it. You may not like the later but that's your opinion and I'm fine with that. However I want to make it clear that you can't measure intensity based on emotion shown on the court.

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    Raptors Republic Starter rdiaz101's Avatar
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    I just dont like him starting i think he can be a great 6th man one of the best in the league, it's less pressure for him and he can come off and make an impact. He can still get 26 to 32 mins for sure just like Manu can in San Antonio, but a starter he is not. If they can keep Bosh or if they dont I would like to see them get a Physical, athletic Center that way u can keep Bargs in the SL by putting him on the 4.

    But right now they dont have a choice but to start him and if he is having a bad night teams can drive at will to the basket and lite up the Raps. Tuesday Kobe and Lakers coming off a 3 game losing skid scares the shit out of me because Raps beat them here now they go to LA if they dont bring it ,might be bad night (81).
    Last edited by rdiaz101; Mon Mar 8th, 2010 at 06:01 PM.

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