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Thread: How Can We Upgrade This Offseason?

  1. #121
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't, if I'm rebuilding a team I would try to get a foundational player. A top 5 pick in this draft seems way better than a bunch of out of lottery picks. Out of lottery, you might get starters or you might not, but chances of getting a star are low.

    I'd much rather get a prospect with a legit chance to be a star, and then add another big piece or two via free agency, while that rookie is still under contract.

    Either way, yeah, Kupchak has never been one to concern himself with depth. The Lakers model has been collecting several stars, and then hoping that Los Angeles and a chance at rings can attract some good cheap veterans via exceptions and minimum contracts.
    I would too.

    Problem is Kobe's extension plus the cost of a higher draft pick. They might be able to get one max guy but not two. A guy like lebron will need about $21m in cap space while a guy like love will require about $16m in cap space (10+yrs vs 7-9yrs). Edit: sorry, this assumes they sign max player in 2014.

    I guess it depends on how confident Mitch is in his talent evaluation in later part of draft. A guy like faried drafted at 22 gives you 10/8 plus intangibles like energy and grit for $1.3m per year with opportunity to control him for 8-9 years.
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  2. #122
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Including the 2015 Lakers pick
    I don't see the Lakers 2015 pick being worth nearly as much as their 2014 pick.
    I'd actually bet that the Lakers are back in the Playoffs next year.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would too.

    Problem is Kobe's extension plus the cost of a higher draft pick. They might be able to get one max guy but not two. A guy like lebron will need about $21m in cap space while a guy like love will require about $16m in cap space (10+yrs vs 7-9yrs). Edit: sorry, this assumes they sign max player in 2014.

    I guess it depends on how confident Mitch is in his talent evaluation in later part of draft. A guy like faried drafted at 22 gives you 10/8 plus intangibles like energy and grit for $1.3m per year with opportunity to control him for 8-9 years.
    It would be tough to sign two max guys anyway. Kobe will make 25 mil in 2015-16. Those non-lottery picks and roster cap holds would still combine and push the number to 30 mil +. That's assuming they let Pau go and fill out the roster with 1 year contracts, which I'm not sure they are prepared to do.

    And then of course there's the question if they can find those two max guys who want to sign there.

    I wouldn't pass on a legit chance to get a star in this draft for a couple mil which may or may not be a difference maker, and some low picks. Farieds are pretty rare.

    Now lets say they draft one of Parker / Exum / Wiggins / Smart etc in this draft. That adds a couple more mil onto their payroll compared to a bunch of low picks. But it's not a massive difference. They can still target a max player + some solid starters in the free agency. And then possibly go after another max free agent in 2016 when Kobe's contract expires. At that point Parker / Wiggins etc would still be on rookie contract.

    It seems like a bird in the hand vs. two in the bush type of a situation. I'd rather bet on Parker becoming a star + signing two max players by 2016, than give up on Parker in hopes to sign two max players by 2015 (which doesn't seem likely anyway considering their payroll and how hard it is to sign those free agent stars).

    Besides, they can still go after LeBron, Melo and such, and trade Parker / Wiggins / Exum away later, if it comes to that. As a bonus, at that point they will know exactly how much cap space they need.

    I don't think there's a scenario where I'd trade out of top 5 in this draft for several out of lottery picks.

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  5. #124
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I don't see the Lakers 2015 pick being worth nearly as much as their 2014 pick.
    I'd actually bet that the Lakers are back in the Playoffs next year.
    It's not so easy to get into the playoffs in the West. It would require a great healthy year from Kobe + them signing some major free agent(s) this year.

    As far as their 2015 pick being worth less than their 2014 pick, I think that's true. But we are talking about DeMar. I guess maybe we have different valuations here. I don't think DeMar is worth a high lottery pick in the 2014 draft.

  6. #125
    Raptors Republic Starter peanutwoozle's Avatar
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    or what about upgrading through trade?

    We have tons of expiring contracts.

  7. #126
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    It would be tough to sign two max guys anyway. Kobe will make 25 mil in 2015-16. Those non-lottery picks and roster cap holds would still combine and push the number to 30 mil +. That's assuming they let Pau go and fill out the roster with 1 year contracts, which I'm not sure they are prepared to do.

    And then of course there's the question if they can find those two max guys who want to sign there.

    I wouldn't pass on a legit chance to get a star in this draft for a couple mil which may or may not be a difference maker, and some low picks. Farieds are pretty rare.

    Now lets say they draft one of Parker / Exum / Wiggins / Smart etc in this draft. That adds a couple more mil onto their payroll compared to a bunch of low picks. But it's not a massive difference. They can still target a max player + some solid starters in the free agency. And then possibly go after another max free agent in 2016 when Kobe's contract expires. At that point Parker / Wiggins etc would still be on rookie contract.

    It seems like a bird in the hand vs. two in the bush type of a situation. I'd rather bet on Parker becoming a star + signing two max players by 2016, than give up on Parker in hopes to sign two max players by 2015 (which doesn't seem likely anyway considering their payroll and how hard it is to sign those free agent stars).

    Besides, they can still go after LeBron, Melo and such, and trade Parker / Wiggins / Exum away later, if it comes to that. As a bonus, at that point they will know exactly how much cap space they need.

    I don't think there's a scenario where I'd trade out of top 5 in this draft for several out of lottery picks.
    I don't think lakers finish top 5. I see 8 being more probable. Just out of reach of the highly touted players in this draft....but time will tell.

    Kobe makes $23m in 2015-16.

    2015 free agency is all about love in my opinion. They need about $16m for that.

    Anyways we'll see what happens.
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  8. #127
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    what about a couple picks and Lowry?
    But then you've traded 2 All-Star level talents, (Demar to get the initial picks and Lowry with those picks), for 1 pick. Once again, I'm not sure that's net positive.
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  9. #128
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't think lakers finish top 5. I see 8 being more probable. Just out of reach of the highly touted players in this draft....but time will tell.

    Kobe makes $23m in 2015-16.

    2015 free agency is all about love in my opinion. They need about $16m for that.

    Anyways we'll see what happens.
    Kobe is at 25, according to basketball reference and shamsports, we are probably using different sites.

    As far as finishing no.8, well, if that happens then that rookie will be making ~3 mil a year. So they wouldn't be saving much if anything by adding several out of lottery picks instead. So money factor would probably not be relevant at all in that situation.

    However, if it's no.8, then it might be very different talent-wise. Lets say a couple guys decide to stay in school. Maybe no.8 doesn't look too sexy and they prefer to trade down for that reason. A different conversation in that case.

    I was discussing in terms of top 5 pick, since that was the original question, trading up into top 5 in the 2014 draft.

  10. #129
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    But then you've traded 2 All-Star level talents, (Demar to get the initial picks and Lowry with those picks), for 1 pick. Once again, I'm not sure that's net positive.
    That would kind of be what we were expecting if we tanked though. So the question is: will Lowry keep this play up for the next couple of years?

  11. #130
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    But then you've traded 2 All-Star level talents, (Demar to get the initial picks and Lowry with those picks), for 1 pick. Once again, I'm not sure that's net positive.
    Besides, I'm not sure how it would work. Lowry will be a free agent so he can't get traded on draft day. Sign and trade after the draft? But that's up to Lowry, plus that team can just sign him for free if they have cap space. Trade now? But then how do we know it's a top 5 pick? Lowry will surely make that team better, whichever team it is.

    Also, Lowry's value probably isn't too high considering he's unrestricted. Nor would most high-lottery tanking teams want to build around a 28 year old who's not a superstar.

    You might be able to convince the Lakers to take Lowry+picks for their pick.. but then their pick will probably end up no.10 or so.

    I suspect Ujiri would trade Lowry+DeMar for Wiggins or one of the other top prospects in this draft. But it's hard to imagine that happening.

  12. #131
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Kobe is at 25, according to basketball reference and shamsports, we are probably using different sites.

    As far as finishing no.8, well, if that happens then that rookie will be making ~3 mil a year. So they wouldn't be saving much if anything by adding several out of lottery picks instead. So money factor would probably not be relevant at all in that situation.

    However, if it's no.8, then it might be very different talent-wise. Lets say a couple guys decide to stay in school. Maybe no.8 doesn't look too sexy and they prefer to trade down for that reason. A different conversation in that case.

    I was discussing in terms of top 5 pick, since that was the original question, trading up into top 5 in the 2014 draft.
    You're right 25m.

    If lakers feel confident in depth of draft I could see benefit of 3 later firsts (and maybe some 2nds) versus a 5-10 pick...but that depends on kupchaks evaluation of talent and confidence in being free agent player.

    For next season you also have the issue of Nash's dead weight of $9.7m.

    If I got derailed from original topic, my bad, sorry.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Correct.

    ēPick #1: Their own.
    ēPick #2: Minnesota Timberwolves, top-13 protected.
    ēPick #3: Indiana Pacers, top-14 protected.
    ēPick #4: Washington Wizards, top-12 protected.

    They'll have 4 picks, and not one will be in the Lottery.
    Sure they could package them, but 4 picks in the 15-30 range can't be THAT tempting.
    Granted, more enticing than our lone pick in the 15-20 range.
    Thing is, 2 of those picks (Wiz, T-Wolves) may not even be conveyed this year, leaving them only 2 low picks, with Pacers one being very low. You can't package 4 picks unless you actually have them. If all they have are their own and Pacers, no way in hell they even get a mid lottery pick in exchange.

  14. #133
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You're right 25m.

    If lakers feel confident in depth of draft I could see benefit of 3 later firsts (and maybe some 2nds) versus a 5-10 pick...but that depends on kupchaks evaluation of talent and confidence in being free agent player.

    For next season you also have the issue of Nash's dead weight of $9.7m.

    If I got derailed from original topic, my bad, sorry.
    It's a different conversation, really. No.8 pick earns about the same as two early 20s picks. So the money topic becomes moot. Do the Lakers even gain cap space with that "several picks" deal, or do they lose it. I don't know. It depends on what specific picks we'd be talking about.

    It's a matter of talent in that case. Do the Lakers like someone available at that no. 8 or no.10 pick, or would they prefer to trade down. No.8 or no.10 pick is so different compared to Wiggins / Parker / Exum and other top prospects.

    It's one thing to trade a potential foundational player for late picks in order to save a little bit money and add depth; that makes no sense to me. But it's another thing to have the no.8 or no.10 pick and say "I don't like any of these available prospects that much" and trade for multiple picks in the 15-30 range; that's reasonable and it depends on what happens on draft day.

  15. #134
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    Thing is, 2 of those picks (Wiz, T-Wolves) may not even be conveyed this year, leaving them only 2 low picks, with Pacers one being very low. You can't package 4 picks unless you actually have them. If all they have are their own and Pacers, no way in hell they even get a mid lottery pick in exchange.
    Why not. They have picks, just not necessarily this year. They have the 2015 Lakers pick as well. They are all valuable assets.
    I actually wonder how many teams would be interested in adding 4 1st round rookies in a single year.

    As far as getting a mid lottery pick for them, who knows. It's always hard to trade up and depends on who drops.

  16. #135
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Detroit wants to trade Josh Smith not Greg Monroe. Read here.

    Before people crucify me (please don't. I'm really nice), what are people's thoughts about J-Smoove in a Raptors uniform and an upgrade at the 4? Please bear in mind that his salary sucks but with a different environment / system, would he thrive here? Is he more toxic than Gay on offence? Bad locker room influence? Really shitty salary? Thoughts?
    ďThe saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.Ē - Martin Luther King

  17. #136
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post

    Detroit wants to trade Josh Smith not Greg Monroe. Read here.

    Before people crucify me (please don't. I'm really nice), what are people's thoughts about J-Smoove in a Raptors uniform and an upgrade at the 4? Please bear in mind that his salary sucks but with a different environment / system, would he thrive here? Is he more toxic than Gay on offence? Bad locker room influence? Really shitty salary? Thoughts?
    I think you questions nailed it.

    The article hits on his age, contract, declining athleticism.

    Just say no.
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  18. #137
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    Smith is really good defensively but his IQ is terrible. With regards to his salary I think he's getting paid what he deserves to be honest. He's only 28 so it's not like he'll be retiring any day now.

    But, I don't know if he's a team-first guy and that's kind of the environment we have right now. I am not sure he fits. If he is acquired they lose all flexibility again and I don't see MU giving that up for a player like him. I also wouldn't want to make Detroit a better team by helping them resign Monroe.

    If the Raptors offered a poo-poo platter and Detroit accepted then I would think twice about it. Fields/Salmons or Fields/Novak or Fields/Hayes is what I would be considering (Fields being the guy they would have to take back). And even then I'd probably say no. It's a short term upgrade that could back fire.. but they lose their flexibility in 2015 when some really good free agents that could be made available. And the Lowry question has not been answered.. so you also don't want to give up all your flexibility when you may not have a starting caliber PG.

  19. #138
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    ^ A fair point re making Pistons better. I think they are going to re-sign Monroe anyway, I can't imagine Dumars letting a good player go. He always re-signs anyone good. But on the other hand, getting rid of Josh Smith would enable them to probably add someone like Lance Stephenson or Deng. A scary proposition.

    Jennings
    Stephenson
    KCP
    Monroe
    Drummond

    Now that's a team that makes more sense, and they'd be so young and talented.

  20. #139
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    I would only take Josh Smith if they add picks. It's a character risk, significant contract, and he simply wouldn't take this Raptors team over the top even at his best. And he's not a valuable trade asset, you aren't likely to use him in future trades for some star.

    I think it would be better to keep collecting assets, possibly target someone like Lance Stephenson in the free agency, then try to see who becomes available in trades. Collect assets that you think you can trade.
    Or they can keep cap space and go after one of the big free agents in 2015 or 2016.

    In principle, several years from now, depending on how the team looks at that point, Josh Smith may be a viable option. He was a pretty good player in a better situation. He takes too many inefficient long shots but he also adds defense, passing and overall dynamic offensive play to PF position. With Smith, you can add some plays where you run PnR from the PF position, for example; very few teams can do that.
    But now, at this moment, it's not the right move IMO. This Raptors team can't afford to get itself stuck under big unmovable 4 year contracts right now, it's not close enough to contention.

  21. #140
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I think for backup C, G. Dieng from Minny is the guy I would go after. Dude needs a lot, like A LOT of work, but is also a block machine and rebounder.
    I agree.. this guy would be awesome.. if Mu is desperate to get rid of Lowry.. I would swap Lowry + 2015 1st rounder for Rubio and this guy.. both him and Rubio needs work on theri shot.
    I know Minny needs to win now and K.Love is pretty much gone.. lowry is a definite upgrade over Rubio for them

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