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Thread: Game #45: Orlando Magic 83 - Toronto Raptors 98

  1. #361
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    Perhaps you should forget about silly debates. What do they prove? Should Houston unload Harden too? This year, his numbers, across the board, are near identical to DeMar's. Ugh, people need to pay attention to a lot more than number crunching to support a misguided narrative, imo.
    I agree with that, but looking exclusively at the numbers:

    Harden: PER 21.2 TS% 59.3 | 4.8 rb and 5.1 ast per 36
    Demar : PER 17.9 TS% 51.7 | 4.4 rb and 3.5 ast per 36

    This is about what I'd expect to see. Demar produces at a similar pace but with worse playmaking and far worse efficiency.

    Demar helps the team by drawing the opponent's best defender, but he still has to be able to get into the paint. Penetration creates an easier shot, or opens up passing lanes in the defense. Taking a midrange jumper allows the defense to stay within their comfort zone. You don't create switches, you don't create open men.

  2. #362
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I agree with that, but looking exclusively at the numbers:

    Harden: PER 21.2 TS% 59.3 | 4.8 rb and 5.1 ast per 36
    Demar : PER 17.9 TS% 51.7 | 4.4 rb and 3.5 ast per 36

    This is about what I'd expect to see. Demar produces at a similar pace but with worse playmaking and far worse efficiency.

    Demar helps the team by drawing the opponent's best defender, but he still has to be able to get into the paint. Penetration creates an easier shot, or opens up passing lanes in the defense. Taking a midrange jumper allows the defense to stay within their comfort zone. You don't create switches, you don't create open men.
    Add to that harden scores .26 points per shot more. That is big when talking 16 shots per game.

    Also for whatever reason harden is shooting a career worst 32% from 3.
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  3. #363
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I agree with that, but looking exclusively at the numbers:

    Harden: PER 21.2 TS% 59.3 | 4.8 rb and 5.1 ast per 36
    Demar : PER 17.9 TS% 51.7 | 4.4 rb and 3.5 ast per 36

    This is about what I'd expect to see. Demar produces at a similar pace but with worse playmaking and far worse efficiency.

    Demar helps the team by drawing the opponent's best defender, but he still has to be able to get into the paint. Penetration creates an easier shot, or opens up passing lanes in the defense. Taking a midrange jumper allows the defense to stay within their comfort zone. You don't create switches, you don't create open men.
    Plus, we're comparing Harden's down year with DeRozan's best year.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  5. #364
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Haha yeah, and a 4 year old's finger painting is nearly identical to Picasso. Giveyaheadashake brotha, Harden is way more efficient and causes a million times more headaches. Have you ever watched a Rockets game LOL.
    I've seen plenty of Harden, and he's a great young player, but so is DeMar. I'm primarily using the numbers to counter the stat crunchers, using numbers to say DeMar is inefficient. What have you got besides unqualified opinion to say Harden is more "efficient"? I don't know about judging players strictly by numbers, but if he's so inefficient, answer me these:
    - why does every coach in the NBA gear their defense around stopping DeMar? These are the top basketball coaches in the world, but some of you seem to think you know better than them.
    - why have Wade and Harden, 2 of the best who face him in real games, both come out and say DeMar should be in the all star game?

    Just curious, man. Why are top level professionals extolling his virtues, while fans of the team piss on a guy that's been a huge part of this team's turnaround, while they're playing fantastic ball for us to enjoy? Unbelievable.

    PS. Look, I'm not trying to say DeMar is Harden's equal, but am saying that I find it pathetic that DeMar is still being the target of such downgrading by fans of the team.
    Last edited by salmon; Thu Jan 30th, 2014 at 03:55 PM.

  6. #365
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    I've seen plenty of Harden, and he's a great young player, but so is DeMar. I'm primarily using the numbers to counter the stat crunchers, using numbers to say DeMar is inefficient. What have you got besides unqualified opinion to say Harden is more "efficient"?

    I don't know about judging players strictly by numbers, but if he's so inefficient, answer me these:
    - why does every coach in the NBA gear their defense around stopping DeMar? These are the top basketball coaches in the world, but some of you seem to think you know better than them.
    - why have Wade and Harden, 2 of the best who face him in real games, both come out and say DeMar should be in the all star game?

    Just curious, man. Why are top level professionals extolling his virtues, while fans of the team piss on a guy that's been a huge part of this team's turnaround, while they're playing fantastic ball for us to enjoy? Unbelievable.

    PS. Look, I'm not trying to say DeMar is Harden's equal, but am saying that I find it pathetic that DeMar is still being the target of such downgrading by fans of the team.
    Paragraph one: I showed that their numbers aren't actually all that similar.

    Point one: every coach in the NBA gears their defense to force DD into playing his inefficient game. they take away passing and driving lanes

    Point two: Wade and Harden recognize DD as one of the better talents in the league, which he is. he just makes a lot of bad decisions on the court.

    PS: can we just keep it about the topic at hand.

    Edit: oh and about your second point - MJ was one of or the greatest player of all time, but he hasn't been able to build a successful team.
    Last edited by stooley; Thu Jan 30th, 2014 at 04:08 PM.

  7. #366
    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    - why does every coach in the NBA gear their defense around stopping DeMar? These are the top basketball coaches in the world, but some of you seem to think you know better than them.
    - why have Wade and Harden, 2 of the best who face him in real games, both come out and say DeMar should be in the all star game?

    Just curious, man. Why are top level professionals extolling his virtues, while fans of the team piss on a guy that's been a huge part of this team's turnaround, while they're playing fantastic ball for us to enjoy? Unbelievable.
    Because Demar shoots the most on our team, and he is the best option on the Raptors. That's not saying a whole lot.

    Demar is extremely well liked around the league, seems he's part of the "in crowd". Also players don't watch a lot of games either, these are the same guys who have ignored analytics for years and still believed the Raptors needed Gay. Until you know, they didn't.
    Dwane Casey says: Pound the Gay!!

  8. #367
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    I think Harden and DeRozan are bad comparisons, considering their games are an opposite; Harden is almost the statue for analytics, while DeRozan is what analytics like to feed on.

    Harden does most of his scoring from the perimeter, or in the paint/free-throw line - he'll rarely take the mid-ranged jump-shot.

    DeRozan on the other hand, has most of his scoring off the paint/free-throw line, and in the mid-ranged area off curls, pin-downs, set screens, post-ups etc.

    The only thing these two guys are similar in is their ability to get to the free throw line, with Harden better considering his ball-handling is miles above DeRozan's. Also, a new similarity that has appeared this season, is DeMar using the pick-&-roll much more than he has been in isolations, which is a HUGE step. Harden has always been one of the better guards overall in the P&R.

    I think a more similar comparison in terms of play-style to DeMar, are guys like Kobe, Wade. NOW I AM NOT COMPARING THEIR CAREERS, PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME THE BS OF "DeMar shouldn't even be in the conversation with these guys". I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT I AM SOLELY SPEAKING ON PLAY STYLE, NOT CAREER ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

    Wade and Kobe do much of their scoring - like DeRozan - in the post area, off screens, mid-ranged area, free-throw line, and in the paint. Now, Wade is similar to that of DeRozan with both of them not being consistent threats from the perimeter, but Kobe and DeMar's play-style are similar to that of fadeaways, post-ups, and 'craftiness' (pump-fakes, foot-work).

  9. #368
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Because Demar shoots the most on our team, and he is the best option on the Raptors. That's not saying a whole lot.

    Demar is extremely well liked around the league, seems he's part of the "in crowd". Also players don't watch a lot of games either, these are the same guys who have ignored analytics for years and still believed the Raptors needed Gay. Until you know, they didn't.
    I think everyone wants to look at statistics, but I've always said this when it comes to numbers; Stats don't lie, but neither do they tell the whole story, and I sure as hell ain't the only one with this philosophy when approaching basketball with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

    Watch the games, and don't even bother looking at the analytics, hell even the raw statistics. It's easy to that DeMar is the biggest threat to score. I'm sure everyone here as either played basketball competitively or in rec, or whatever, and there's always that one guy on the other team that constantly hurts you because either; 1. he's the best player on the team 2. he's the number one option on the other team. You always have to guard the team's biggest threat, and whether or not you think DeMar is a threat is arguable and your opinion, but I personally think it says a lot when teams key in on DeRozan every single game. I mean, remember when Rudy was still here, and DD had the lesser of the attention? He was absolutely tearing every single team apart scoring, no matter how efficient/inefficient he was. Putting the ball into the basket is the name of the game, isn't it? I think that's a step back that this sport has taken professionally within the past decade.

  10. #369
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Efficiency is nice, but DeRozan is far from a chucker in my opinion.

  11. #370
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Every year it's the same DD had reached his ceiling but than comes back better. I can't wait to see how good he is next year. It's sad that Dd will never win with this fan base. His the player we deserve but not the one y'all want.


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  12. #371
    Raptors Republic Rookie rseal's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    DD is a non factor player, been thinking this for a while and saying it for the past week and a half.
    .
    The LA Clippers have the best offense in the month of January. THEY SHOULD TRADE CHRIS PAUL, RIGHT??

  13. #372
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote rseal wrote: View Post
    The LA Clippers have the best offense in the month of January. THEY SHOULD TRADE CHRIS PAUL, RIGHT??
    Basically the same argument. Clippers are playing out of their mind without CP3.

  14. #373
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Ok when the shoots aren't falling. Who gets to the free throw line?
    By rights when the shot isn't falling, the ball should go into the post, where we get points in the paint, free throws, and open looks that will fall. DD when his shot isn't falling....doesn't give anything other than FTs

    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I am looking at the big picture. I'm curious to see more of how the raptors perform without DD. Things seem to be moving pretty smoothly so far.
    Me too. Maybe the "DD -haterz-" crowd needs to see what we are missing when DD is out (you know, the whole 'you don't know what you have till you lose it' thing).

    Though I don't think we will miss him really at all, even though his minutes are spread to Salmons, Novak and Stone...

    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    We played Brooklyn and Orlando....... and where did you hear that about DeMar? he and Lowry are team Captains. Guy goes down team wins without him against weak opposition and simply forget everything hes done, Fans are so silly....
    Lowry is the clear cut leader. The only other player that I have heard is a leader is Amir. I have not heard anything about DD being a leader. Where did you hear it?

    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    Perhaps you should forget about silly debates. What do they prove? Should Houston unload Harden too? This year, his numbers, across the board, are near identical to DeMar's. Ugh, people need to pay attention to a lot more than number crunching to support a misguided narrative, imo.
    Harden destroys DD. One of those players can efficiently run an entire offense. One of those players shoots a lot.

    Quote ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
    I think Harden and DeRozan are bad comparisons, considering their games are an opposite; Harden is almost the statue for analytics, while DeRozan is what analytics like to feed on.

    a more similar comparison in terms of play-style to DeMar, are guys like Kobe, Wade. NOW I AM NOT COMPARING THEIR CAREERS, PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME THE BS OF "DeMar shouldn't even be in the conversation with these guys". I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT I AM SOLELY SPEAKING ON PLAY STYLE, NOT CAREER ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

    Wade and Kobe do much of their scoring - like DeRozan - in the post area, off screens, mid-ranged area, free-throw line, and in the paint. Now, Wade is similar to that of DeRozan with both of them not being consistent threats from the perimeter, but Kobe and DeMar's play-style are similar to that of fadeaways, post-ups, and 'craftiness' (pump-fakes, foot-work).
    Harden and DD are bad comparisons.

    DD and Wade are also bad comparisons, Wade is elite at getting into the paint and can create.

    However the DD/Kobe comparison is pretty good. Both play out of the mid range primarily

  15. #374
    Raptors Republic Rookie RaptorsForever's Avatar
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    Just read that chris paul is scheduled to make a comeback when we play them on the last game of our road trip. Don't know how to react to this as the clips are just as good without him.

  16. #375
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Season start Casey said Team Captains are Rudy and DeMar. I assume after the deal DeMAr and Kyle are now both Captains. Also a PG being team leader is the norm anyway.

  17. #376
    Raptors Republic All-Star KazanTheMan's Avatar
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    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...hardeja01.html
    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Plus, we're comparing Harden's down year with DeRozan's best year.
    Not really a down year, he had ONE good year last season. And he was only averaging 3 more points a game with everything else essentially the same.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star KazanTheMan's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsForever wrote: View Post
    Just read that chris paul is scheduled to make a comeback when we play them on the last game of our road trip. Don't know how to react to this as the clips are just as good without him.
    Actually lookin forward to the lowry v paul matchup
    "Masai WILL win us a championship"
    - Tim Leiweke

    Ujiri: "One thing I can say for sure is that we will not be stuck in the middle."

    Reporter: "How can you say that?"

    Ujiri: "Because I can say that."

  19. #378
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Season start Casey said Team Captains are Rudy and DeMar. I assume after the deal DeMAr and Kyle are now both Captains. Also a PG being team leader is the norm anyway.
    Team Captain =/= Team Leader

  20. #379
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote KazanTheMan wrote: View Post
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...hardeja01.html

    Not really a down year, he had ONE good year last season. And he was only averaging 3 more points a game with everything else essentially the same.
    I was talking 3pt%.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  21. #380
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote KazanTheMan wrote: View Post
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...hardeja01.html

    Not really a down year, he had ONE good year last season. And he was only averaging 3 more points a game with everything else essentially the same.
    'only' averaging 3 more points a game? you talk like that isn't a big deal. thats 246 more points in a season. theres a huge difference between 18ppg and 21ppg.

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