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Thread: unpopular opinion thread.

  1. #41
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Damnit MATT, why do you have to be logical in this thread. Now I gotta respond logically. So here goes:

    For all the negative points brought forward by this and other related threads, what does a franchise do when they've surrendered assets to be bad for the lottery and then the top players decide to come back for another year in college? Then what?

    You never know how things will play out. For many of the teams that hope to use this year's draft as an important part of their rebuilding it could be a disaster leading to years of futility.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    You never know how things will play out. For many of the teams that hope to use this year's draft as an important part of their rebuilding it could be a disaster leading to years of futility.
    They'll probably just wind up tanking next year though...

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I'm curious. Why is he wrong?

    I feel the same way. I don't see this team getting past teams in future playoffs. The East is incredible weak this season, what happens in 2 years when Philly is rolling out MCW-Wiggins-Noel...will we be able to beat them?
    Why is he wrong? First, we're not stuck in mediocrity. We were stuck under the BC/Peddie regime. The new management group has already shown the ability to make the difficult decisions the past group refused to make. The next points he made are re: this years draft position and not having the cap space to bring in a star. This lack of immediate gratification seems to be true, but Masai is playing the hand he's been dealt about as well as he can. People seem to think a team can tank, draft a potential star and then suddenly become a mecca for high level free agents. I don't. Having cap space and being able to use it efficiently don't go hand-in-hand. See Boozer, Carlos.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    With regards to players staying back for another year or two in the NCAA.. I completely agree as I think it creates a better product in the NBA. The only way to change that (beside modifying the CBA) is to change the NCAA.

    The NCAA is so evil man.. the schools make so much money on the backs of these young kids. Pay the talent! Not just with scholarships but with actual incomes. Once that happens the kids will stay, the talent pool then gets better, and the NBA is better for it. More Tim Duncan's, less Kwame Brown's (in theory).

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    With regards to players staying back for another year or two in the NCAA.. I completely agree as I think it creates a better product in the NBA. The only way to change that (beside modifying the CBA) is to change the NCAA.

    The NCAA is so evil man.. the schools make so much money on the backs of these young kids. Pay the talent! Not just with scholarships but with actual incomes. Once that happens the kids will stay, the talent pool then gets better, and the NBA is better for it. More Tim Duncan's, less Kwame Brown's (in theory).
    Agree. For the higher end players (the ones who would be drafted), the NCAA is indentured servitude.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    With regards to players staying back for another year or two in the NCAA.. I completely agree as I think it creates a better product in the NBA. The only way to change that (beside modifying the CBA) is to change the NCAA.

    The NCAA is so evil man.. the schools make so much money on the backs of these young kids. Pay the talent! Not just with scholarships but with actual incomes. Once that happens the kids will stay, the talent pool then gets better, and the NBA is better for it. More Tim Duncan's, less Kwame Brown's (in theory).
    Paying NCAA players create problems when you look at sports without major professional leagues or tours. It doesn't make much sense to pay rowers, or wrestlers. So how do you create rules that set an even playing field for all schools?

    I played a certain sport at a certain university in the states for 4 years, and I would never, ever have expected to have been paid.

    I think the issue is really with using the NCAA as a free farm league.

    If pay becomes an issue, then leagues should follow the model set by the MLB (who'd have thought that would ever be said).

  7. #47
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    The raptors are stuck in mediocrity. Not good enough to get past the 1st or 2nd round. Not terrible enough to draft someone who can take us to the next level needed to win a championship. Having to throw money at free agents like kyle lowry next year, there isn't money left to bring a star. All this homerism from our media and raptors republic feels like giving the retarded kid at school a pat on the head for not screwing up. We didn't sit here twiddling our thumbs since '06 to end up in the same fucking place in 7 years. rinse and repeat. It is further cementing us as the atlanta hawks of this generation and makes me want to throw the fuck up. Masai is the flavor of the month until the fanbase realizes how tough a position he has put himself in.

    go.
    Aaargh.... not this shizzle again. I stopped reading after I saw the word 'stuck'. WTF. It's only been 30 something games post-Gay trade, with flexibility to make future moves already created. For the love of peace, mods, please lock this thread up.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Aaargh.... not this shizzle again. I stopped reading after I saw the word 'stuck'. WTF. It's only been 30 something games post-Gay trade, with flexibility to make future moves already created. For the love of peace, mods, please lock this thread up.
    actually, the rest of the thread is really good! give it a chance!

  9. #49
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    I don't see Raptors ever winning a championship so Playoffs is good enough for me.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Paying NCAA players create problems when you look at sports without major professional leagues or tours. It doesn't make much sense to pay rowers, or wrestlers. So how do you create rules that set an even playing field for all schools?

    I played a certain sport at a certain university in the states for 4 years, and I would never, ever have expected to have been paid.

    I think the issue is really with using the NCAA as a free farm league.

    If pay becomes an issue, then leagues should follow the model set by the MLB (who'd have thought that would ever be said).
    One, there's no way for me to read "wrestlers" and not picture Macho Man Randy Savage instead of what you meant.

    Two, I think it's going to happen. Some day, NCAA will pay football and basketball players.
    Whatever you do, do it the best you can

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Starter YoungGunRaptor's Avatar
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    The only way to develop a championship pedigree in the franchise is to actually get a taste of what it is like to play post season basketball. Look at the pacers: in 2011 they faced the Derrick Rose-led Chicago Bulls complete with bench mob, and lost in 5 games I think in the first round. A year later the same core of players was facing Miami in the second round, taking Miami to 6. Last year, the Pacers were a game away from the NBA finals.

    What's the next step? the finals.

    Four years of winning basketball has led them to be in the position they are in today. Hibbert has grown, Stephenson has stepped up immensely, David West is playing well, and Paul George is already in the MVP discussion at the age of 23. I don't believe these guys developed as players simply by having "growth/development" aka losing seasons. They were thrown into the fray and they responded in a big way.

    I can see why many people believe the Raptors' success has been artificial this season- the Eastern Conference is bad, a lot of big name players are out/ returning, and Kyle Lowry might only be playing so hard to get a contract. I don't buy any of this. Regardless, we have a chance to grow this core of players and see what we truly have talent-wise on this team.

    In the same way some of the Pacer's players have stepped up, we have seen Terrence Ross, Patrick Patterson, john Salmons and Kyle Lowry step up immensely alongside Demar Derozan's continuous growth on a consistent basis. Guys like Amir, Jonas, Vasquez, Hansborough, and Hayes are all solid players who can make major contributions. The two guys I see growing are JV and Vasquez- young guys with so much potential. Some spring time basketball can definitely help accelerate that growth and maturation.

    This year we have a chance to:
    A) make some noise during all star weekend
    B) Win the Atlantic Division
    C) Play in the Playoffs
    D) Win our first round series
    E) Likely face the Pacers or Heat in the Second round and lose, but most importantly, spend some time to learn from the best in the business.
    F) Grow

    G) In the summer, make some trades/ acquisitions while our players are high in value. The High value will come from a playoff run.
    “You can sink and drown, or you can float, and we out here like Michael Phelps."


    Demar Derozan

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  13. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote YoungGunRaptor wrote: View Post
    The only way to develop a championship pedigree in the franchise is to actually get a taste of what it is like to play post season basketball. Look at the pacers: in 2011 they faced the Derrick Rose-led Chicago Bulls complete with bench mob, and lost in 5 games I think in the first round. A year later the same core of players was facing Miami in the second round, taking Miami to 6. Last year, the Pacers were a game away from the NBA finals.

    What's the next step? the finals.

    Four years of winning basketball has led them to be in the position they are in today. Hibbert has grown, Stephenson has stepped up immensely, David West is playing well, and Paul George is already in the MVP discussion at the age of 23. I don't believe these guys developed as players simply by having "growth/development" aka losing seasons. They were thrown into the fray and they responded in a big way.

    I can see why many people believe the Raptors' success has been artificial this season- the Eastern Conference is bad, a lot of big name players are out/ returning, and Kyle Lowry might only be playing so hard to get a contract. I don't buy any of this. Regardless, we have a chance to grow this core of players and see what we truly have talent-wise on this team.

    In the same way some of the Pacer's players have stepped up, we have seen Terrence Ross, Patrick Patterson, john Salmons and Kyle Lowry step up immensely alongside Demar Derozan's continuous growth on a consistent basis. Guys like Amir, Jonas, Vasquez, Hansborough, and Hayes are all solid players who can make major contributions. The two guys I see growing are JV and Vasquez- young guys with so much potential. Some spring time basketball can definitely help accelerate that growth and maturation.

    This year we have a chance to:
    A) make some noise during all star weekend
    B) Win the Atlantic Division
    C) Play in the Playoffs
    D) Win our first round series
    E) Likely face the Pacers or Heat in the Second round and lose, but most importantly, spend some time to learn from the best in the business.
    F) Grow

    G) In the summer, make some trades/ acquisitions while our players are high in value. The High value will come from a playoff run.
    not sure what your point is. obviously when teams get better, they make it to the playoffs. making playoffs does not necessarily make you a better team. look at milwaukee/atlanta etc.

    since when did 'growth/development' have to happen in losing seasons? raptors are growing and developing RIGHT NOW in a winning season.

  14. #53
    Raptors Republic Starter OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote YoungGunRaptor wrote: View Post
    The only way to develop a championship pedigree in the franchise is to actually get a taste of what it is like to play post season basketball. Look at the pacers: in 2011 they faced the Derrick Rose-led Chicago Bulls complete with bench mob, and lost in 5 games I think in the first round. A year later the same core of players was facing Miami in the second round, taking Miami to 6. Last year, the Pacers were a game away from the NBA finals.

    What's the next step? the finals.

    Four years of winning basketball has led them to be in the position they are in today. Hibbert has grown, Stephenson has stepped up immensely, David West is playing well, and Paul George is already in the MVP discussion at the age of 23. I don't believe these guys developed as players simply by having "growth/development" aka losing seasons. They were thrown into the fray and they responded in a big way.
    No doubt that it winning helps grow the culture.

    However in order for that culture to go anywhere there needs to be talent. And Indiana is much more talented than us..

  15. #54
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    No doubt that it winning helps grow the culture.

    However in order for that culture to go anywhere there needs to be talent. And Indiana is much more talented than us..
    Its really hard to say, looking at their 2011 roster, whether or not they were more talented than we are now.

    I mean, in hindsight, they were supremely talented, but are we?

  16. #55
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    No doubt that it winning helps grow the culture.

    However in order for that culture to go anywhere there needs to be talent. And Indiana is much more talented than us..
    Ok, giving this thread a chance... thx stooley. :-)

    Sure, Indy has talent 'now', but the current level of that talent was not readily apparent or predicted at the time it was acquired (e.g. Hibbert, Stephenson, George). The Pacers talent was clearly 'developed' beyond what anybody could have hoped. And Larry Bird and Vogel will say that a lot of that talent development starts with the right culture and character.

    (Lol, I basically just posted the same thing that you did.)

    And it's funny, because this team has developed the mentality of being a tough, hard-working, leave it on the floor, never say die group. So, if we actually drafted an elite talent like Wiggins, based on his current scouting report about how he has a tendency to float through games and not be aggressive, I could see the Toronto fanbase turning on him and attacking his character as being soft and lazy. We could be right back to 7 years of 'waiting on Bargnani to lead us', all over again.
    Last edited by golden; Wed Feb 5th, 2014 at 04:05 PM.

  17. #56
    Raptors Republic Starter YoungGunRaptor's Avatar
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    @iblastoff my point is that winning is necessary for growth. Basketball is a sport in which exposure and effort are sometimes the best ways to grow. Making the playoffs, if handled correctly by the Raptors, can be a fantastic opportunity to witness how this team will respond to great pressure, both from the city and from the teams they face. As for the growth, thats my point. It doesn't happen by t anking.

    @OldSkoolCool Talent wise, we have: JV, Ross,Patterson, Vasquez, and Derozan who are all young and who all have the potential to grow like those guys on the Pacers did. The potential is there. The growth is happening now.

    If you went back 4 years, I don't think many people saw Stephenson, Hibbert, George, and co as being top tier professionals the way they are today.

    That same opportunity exists for our team right now.
    “You can sink and drown, or you can float, and we out here like Michael Phelps."


    Demar Derozan

  18. #57
    Raptors Republic Starter OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Don't forget that besides George, Stephenson and Hibbert, they had an all star Danny Granger, a 2-way PG in George Hill and they also had Hansborough. They also signed an old all star David West in 2011, when they made their first push past the first round.

    So they started with

    Hill/Stephenson/George/Hibbert/Granger/Hansborough and added West after their first playoff appearance.

    We have

    Lowry/DD/Ross/Amir/JV/2Pat.....we have a long way to go talent wise.

  19. #58
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Don't forget that besides George, Stephenson and Hibbert, they had an all star Danny Granger, a 2-way PG in George Hill and they also had Hansborough. They also signed an old all star David West in 2011, when they made their first push past the first round.

    So they started with

    Hill/Stephenson/George/Hibbert/Granger/Hansborough and added West after their first playoff appearance.

    We have

    Lowry/DD/Ross/Amir/JV/2Pat.....we have a long way to go talent wise.
    I'm not sure that I agree. We have Lowry, who's our equivalent of West. DD isn't too far off Granger, Amir is just as valuable as Hill. We actually have Hansborough! We have Ross and JV, who aren't looking much worse than George and Hibbert a few years ago.

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  21. #59
    Raptors Republic Starter OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Hmm I have a bit of a different view.

    Hill was improving, Lowry is at his peak
    DD and Granger are very similar in their respective 5th seasons
    Ross has a long way to go before becoming the next George
    We have no one with the abilities of Lance Stephenson, or anyone who will improve like Lance has
    The combo of Amir/2Pat is not equal to West with his ability to operate out of the low block
    Hansborough = Hansborough
    Hibbert was actually worse than JV so far (comparing 2nd years)...so if there is any reason for gaining an advantage it is here.

    Although there is room for us to improve, we wont be able to improve as much as the Pacers have been, with Hill, George and Lance vs Lowry and Ross and [nobody compared to Lance].

    IMO we are still missing a post presence, 3 point shooting, and a 'catalyst' (for lack of better words) in order to improve as much as the Pacers have.

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  23. #60
    Raptors Republic Starter YoungGunRaptor's Avatar
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    Yup, we have Derozan (on the MVP ladder) = to PG24
    Kyle Lowry (the leader MVP)=Stephenson/Hill
    Terrence Ross (Granger)
    Amir/Patterson (West/Scola)
    JV/Hayes/Hansborough (Hibbert/ Mahinmi)

    Not saying the two teams/players are equivalent right now, but our team has the same potential that the Pacers players had some time ago.
    “You can sink and drown, or you can float, and we out here like Michael Phelps."


    Demar Derozan

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