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Thread: Tor - lac

  1. #1
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    Default Tor - lac

    Apparently Jared Dudley is available. I see him as filling the same kind of role as Salmons longterm as he's on contract for a few more years. Not sure if I'm completely happy with him at over 4 mil a year but if we could trade Novak to acquire him that'd be great. They arent a good 3pt shooting team after all and they'd be able to get him plenty of open shots while mitigating his defensive liabilities. Wed probably have to include a 2nd rounder though, but that should be enough as he's fallen out of their rotation and doesn't seem to fit all that well. Alternatively, we could offer Psycho T, as they're already set on the wings. Both trades work in terms of salary

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    Novak i'd do, the 2nd i'd throw in if I had to. Not for Psycho T though- that would take away our fourth big. I don't trust Hayes enough to put him in that role permanently.

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    Psycho T is worth more than that to a contender.

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    I'd be alright trading Hansbrough because I dont see him playing much in the postseason and we need a center more than another 4. After this trade, we trade Byucks, Daye, Stone and a 2nd rounder for Epke Udoh from the Bucks

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    Maybe they'd do it for Hansbrough. No reason for them to do it for Novak.

    It's an interesting idea. It comes down to cap space. Do you sacrifice cap space to win more games now? I like Dudley, even though he hasn't been good this year for the most part. And if this team was in win-now mode, I'd say definitely do it. But the deal would cost 3.25 mil in cap space this summer, and more in 2015.

    In principle, I'm opposed to spending on role players until the team adds a big piece in free agency. But it's not black and white. The team would still have max cap space in 2015. But if Ujiri wants to target someone like lets say Deng or Lance Stephenson in 2014 + keep Lowry, he would have to say no to this deal.
    Last edited by BobLoblaw; Wed Feb 12th, 2014 at 01:19 PM. Reason: thinking one thing, typing another

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    True, there just aren't that many capable small forwards around the league right now, although that should change in the near future with what seems like half the 2014 draft class playing at the 3 lol.

    I don't think that Ujiri goes for either Stephenson or Deng though, at least not with the current construction of the team. We've already got 2 young shooting guards, so barring a trade, I don't see him stepping up and offering Stephenson a large enough contract to satisfy him and dissuade Indiana from matching it. As for Deng, I just don't think he's worth the kind of money he'll likely get this summer, and he really won't be worth it towards the end of his contract. After all, he turns 30 next April and was never known for his athleticism. I do think his game will age better than some others as he's a high IQ player and has a decent jumper, but that doesn't mean I think he'll be worth somewhere between $11-13 million when he's 32/33.

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    Indiana can't "match" Stephenson by the way, in the CBA sense, since he's unrestricted free agent. Which is why he's probably the sexiest free agent this summer not counting LeBron/Melo/Bosh. Young, unrestricted, talented, capable of playing multiple positions.

    I'd like the Raptors to target him and I think he fits well -- basketball wise; hard to judge the character side -- but it's possible Ujiri is looking at 2015 and bigger fish. It's also possible that Lance gets very expensive. With his age, youth and talent, and multiple teams with cap space looking for a 2/3 this summer, there could be a bidding war.

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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Indiana can't "match" Stephenson by the way, in the CBA sense, since he's unrestricted free agent. Which is why he's probably the sexiest free agent this summer not counting LeBron/Melo/Bosh. Young, unrestricted, talented, capable of playing multiple positions.

    I'd like the Raptors to target him and I think he fits well -- basketball wise; hard to judge the character side -- but it's possible Ujiri is looking at 2015 and bigger fish. It's also possible that Lance gets very expensive. With his age, youth and talent, and multiple teams with cap space looking for a 2/3 this summer, there could be a bidding war.
    Well...but they can offer anything they want. They still have his bird rights. Which means they can exceed the cap to sign him, and they can also offer him 5 years instead of 4. So they functionally can match and even exceed any offer another team would give in the sense that there's no offer they can't make. So if they're willing to do that, it's up to Stephenson if he wants to leave.

    I also wouldn't really like the Raptors to pursue him. Not sure he'll be worth the price because if there is a bidding war (or even that the Raps will have the kind of money they need). Think it's better to be patient for 2015 or 2016.

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    In general, I think the team would be smart to look at him.
    Yes, there's a good chance it won't work because he becomes too expensive or simply goes for Chicago or some other more glamorous place -- but that's free agency. No guarantees at all. 2015 and 2016 bring no guarantees as well.
    I think you just go there each year and maximize your chances to land an impact player on a reasonable contract.
    I wouldn't want to diminish that chance just to add Dudley. In principle, I wouldn't trade future assets for role players. Be those assets picks or cap space.

    If Ujiri doesn't like Lance or Deng or others specifically because of character or age or fit or talent, fair enough. If he decides to give up on 2014 free agency because he sees no one he really likes, again, fair enough.

    But if it's "we like him, but maybe he won't want to come here, maybe he will get too expensive, lets add Dudley instead", I'd prefer they still tried over settling for short term.

    EDIT: oops, wanted to add and ended up deleting the original reply to this post
    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Well...but they can offer anything they want. They still have his bird rights. Which means they can exceed the cap to sign him, and they can also offer him 5 years instead of 4. So they functionally can match and even exceed any offer another team would give in the sense that there's no offer they can't make. So if they're willing to do that, it's up to Stephenson if he wants to leave.

    I also wouldn't really like the Raptors to pursue him. Not sure he'll be worth the price because if there is a bidding war (or even that the Raps will have the kind of money they need). Think it's better to be patient for 2015 or 2016.
    In short, Larry Bird has done several interviews on the subject and he's a pretty direct person, he said they'd look at replacing Lance if the price gets too high. They don't have much room under tax.
    Last edited by BobLoblaw; Sat Feb 15th, 2014 at 07:42 PM.

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    First, its highly unlikely Stephenson isn't playing for Indiana next season. While they don't have cap space right now, I'd imagine they'll be pretty active over the summer as they try to clear enough salary to resign Stephenson and remain under the luxury tax threshold. And even if they don't manage to do so over the summer, I still see them resigning him regardless, then looking to offload further salary in-season to get under the luxury tax before the end of the season. Indiana just has soo many advantages when it comes to resigning him, whether its competitive, financial or otherwise.
    Also, I just don't see how you think he's such a good fit for the Raptors, especially as things stand now. I'm 100% for chasing talented 2-way players in free agency, but I'd rather look to upgrade at positions of weakness, rather than signing another shootings guard, one who'd most definitely take playing time away from Ross - a young, talented and athletic wing on a cheap contract who the team can control for up to another 7 years if they so wish. I also don't think this is a question of Dudley over him anyway, as the Raptors won't have significant cap space until 2015, at which point an extra 5 million wouldn't have a huge impact anyway. Not that I'd take Dudley over Stephenson, I just don't think that's the issue here. But, it's probably safe to say that barring some unforseen development, our core roster is pretty much locked in until the summer of 2015, so it makes sense to try and maximize its potential so long as those moves don't mortgage the future in the process. Let me be clear though, Dudley isn't necessarily the best or even one of the best moves wr could make. I do think that this kind of move is likely the only kind of move Ujiri makes though, if he makes one at all. I can't see him trading our draft pick, and he won't screw with the roster too much for fear of the PR hit, so I figured coming up with trades like this would at least offer something approaching reality. We have enough posts featuring ridiculous, highly improbable fantasy trades already.

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    Quote Abused Raptors Fan wrote: View Post
    First, its highly unlikely Stephenson isn't playing for Indiana next season. While they don't have cap space right now, I'd imagine they'll be pretty active over the summer as they try to clear enough salary to resign Stephenson and remain under the luxury tax threshold. And even if they don't manage to do so over the summer, I still see them resigning him regardless, then looking to offload further salary in-season to get under the luxury tax before the end of the season. Indiana just has soo many advantages when it comes to resigning him, whether its competitive, financial or otherwise.
    You kind of remind me of myself a few summers ago in the Harden discussions. I was so sure they will keep Harden because why wouldn't they, everything was maybe probably possibly fixable.

    The fact is that Indiana would have to demolish their bench just to be able to offer Lance 10 mil per, which may or may not be enough. And their GM is openly and unambiguously talking about the possibility of letting Lance go.


    Quote Abused Raptors Fan wrote: View Post
    Also, I just don't see how you think he's such a good fit for the Raptors, especially as things stand now. I'm 100% for chasing talented 2-way players in free agency, but I'd rather look to upgrade at positions of weakness, rather than signing another shootings guard, one who'd most definitely take playing time away from Ross - a young, talented and athletic wing on a cheap contract who the team can control for up to another 7 years if they so wish.
    Lance can get minutes at 1-2-3, basketball wise he fits like a glove in my view.

    I also don't think this is a question of Dudley over him anyway
    Adding Stephenson (or Deng, etc) would be tough if you add Dudley.

    If you mean that it's not impossible, then sure, nothing is impossible, but there's not much cap space as it is and it would certainly take using stretch provision if Ujiri wants to have both Lowry and a major free agent in 2014.

    Giving up those extra few mils of valuable cap space for Dudley makes it so much harder and less likely.

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    Bob:
    I'm actually glad you mentioned Harden, as I think the fallout on OKC's side following the trade make it less probable that Indy doesn't resign Lance, especially considering that Lance's contract status makes it harder for Indy to get much value in return if they went the sign-and-trade route. As for demolishing their bench in order to make cap space, they're currently sitting around $7 million under the tax line, which is what they're looking to avoid. Justremoving Mahinmi's bbloated $4 million contract would put them $11 million under for next year. I imagine Lance would sign with Indy for around $9 million, meaning that they could add another 3 vets minimum contracts to fill out a 13 man roster, just 1 short of what they went into this year with. While I'm sure they'd like to avoid the luxury tax all together, going $1 million into it for a year wouldn't stop them from resigning Lance. They've remained under it thus far, and have a number of contracts coming off the books in 2016, so they won't get hit with the repeater tax.

    Regarding your last point, I said I don't think its an either or question as I don't see the team being a big player in free agency this summer anyway, when those players are available. Instead, I imagine Ujiri will target the summer of 2016 when the team only has $21.5 million in guaranteed contracts on the books, meaning they'll have enough room to potentially go after 2 max contract players entering the season Toronto hosts the Allstar Game. I also said Dudley isn't my first choice either. Rather, I figured he was a player which would help us out immediately at an area of weakness who should be available at a reasonable price lol.

    P.s., I still think it'd make more sense to sign a legit small forward than signing another shooting guard to play minutes out of position.

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    Quote Abused Raptors Fan wrote: View Post
    Bob:
    P.s., I still think it'd make more sense to sign a legit small forward than signing another shooting guard to play minutes out of position.
    I think 'legit small forward' is a moot concept in this case. Lance is even powerful enough to defend LeBron pretty well. In basketball, you are what you defend (point guards being an exception). Lance can legitimately play multiple positions.

    Besides, in my view, beggars can't be choosers, at least not to that degree. If this was a player with clear fit issues, someone too similar to DeMar, or a center, or some non-shooting non-defending PF, fair enough. Otherwise, the Raptors can't afford to nitpick and order a perfect player.

    Well, if Ujiri is confident he can get Kevin Durant or Kevin Love, fair enough. But I guess I'm less optimistic so I would aim at a slightly higher range of targets and hope that I hit something.

    Quote Abused Raptors Fan wrote: View Post
    Regarding your last point, I said I don't think its an either or question as I don't see the team being a big player in free agency this summer anyway, when those players are available. Instead, I imagine Ujiri will target the summer of 2016 when the team only has $21.5 million in guaranteed contracts on the books, meaning they'll have enough room to potentially go after 2 max contract players entering the season Toronto hosts the Allstar Game. I also said Dudley isn't my first choice either. Rather, I figured he was a player which would help us out immediately at an area of weakness who should be available at a reasonable price lol.
    In which case, like I said in my first post in this thread, it would be an ok trade in my view.

    You are arguing a lot of things that I never disagreed with. For example, I never thought that you see Dudley as some super player. And I like him myself as a short term fit. I always liked Dudley, since he was a rookie, even though he's not playing very well this year.
    I'm simply worried about losing cap space and missing on opportunities this year.

    I think you should glance through my first post in this thread again, just to make sure we are on the same page.

    Quote Abused Raptors Fan wrote: View Post
    Bob:
    I'm actually glad you mentioned Harden, as I think the fallout on OKC's side following the trade make it less probable that Indy doesn't resign Lance, especially considering that Lance's contract status makes it harder for Indy to get much value in return if they went the sign-and-trade route. As for demolishing their bench in order to make cap space, they're currently sitting around $7 million under the tax line, which is what they're looking to avoid. Justremoving Mahinmi's bbloated $4 million contract would put them $11 million under for next year. I imagine Lance would sign with Indy for around $9 million, meaning that they could add another 3 vets minimum contracts to fill out a 13 man roster, just 1 short of what they went into this year with. While I'm sure they'd like to avoid the luxury tax all together, going $1 million into it for a year wouldn't stop them from resigning Lance. They've remained under it thus far, and have a number of contracts coming off the books in 2016, so they won't get hit with the repeater tax.
    Tough to say how much they have exactly, depends on the new tax line, but they are at like 68-69ish right now for next year (unless they cut Scola). That's including roster cap holds and including George's Rose bonus which he will almost certainly get (he just needs to make an all-NBA team this year).

    It's hard to imagine a situation where they can keep Scola, and getting rid of a Mahinmi would cost as well, no one will take him for free the way he's playing.

    Lance taking 9 mil, or the Pacers agreeing to go over tax, or them having 11 mil under tax just by getting rid of Mahinmi, those are hopes, best case scenarios for fans. I love that team and I hope such hopes come true, but I don't think these are likely scenarios.

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    Indy is allergic to the luxury tax. I think they`ll keep Lance, but they might have to jettison one of their higher-making bench players. Might mean opportunities to snatch a draft pick as well... something like buycks for copeland and a second rounder

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    Quote TSF wrote: View Post
    Indy is allergic to the luxury tax. I think they`ll keep Lance, but they might have to jettison one of their higher-making bench players. Might mean opportunities to snatch a draft pick as well... something like buycks for copeland and a second rounder
    Yes, that seems very likely if they manage to re-sign Lance. In which case Ujiri would be in prime position to offer that cap space and get another pick in return.

    Probably even a 1st, since Copeland is over 3 mil and teams typically want a 1st for helping out and absorbing 3-5 mil in salary. Losing just a (late) 2nd rounder would be very cheap for Indiana in that situation, the other teams would have to be unusually kind and Christian even, so Indiana probably shouldn't count on that.

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    Bob:

    For the most part, I believe this was more of a miscommunication on both parts. And after thinking about it for a while, it turns out im not sold on Dudley either. His contract only makes sense for a contender looking to add one last piece, and in our case, paying him 10mil over the next 2 years is just the sort of garbage move BC would make. Anyways, I still don't aee Ujiri signing any big FAs unless some significant changes are made to our current core. A lot of dead weight contracts on the roster right now. Actually, I could see Ujiri blowing this team up next summer or in-season. If it weren't for the team's success following The Trade, he would have continued to sell off our tradeable assets. And, since the PR hit will be less significant after the playoffs (although still sizeable, especially if we make some noise) I could see him potentially blowing this team up if the right trades come up. And if a high pick becomes available on draft night, I can't see Ujiri passing that up. That's probably his ideal situation, as we get to go to the playoffs and still get a 2014 lottery pick. Too bad it won't happen

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