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As his first order of business, should Adam Silver eliminate the Hack-A-(Insert Poor FT Shooter's Name)?

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  • #16
    JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Because I think real issue at hand precedes it (as I've written): a team should not be able to foul strategically.
    I agree.

    I would take it one step further too, to the issue of fouls in general.
    I frankly think basketball is developing a dangerous trend with guys like Harden, who have figured out the art of drawing fouls, and the increasing prevalance of flopping. When the best player in the game is actively manipulating the rules to his advantage, it's time to change the rules.
    It's embarassing, against the spirit of competition, and it just adds such a huge element of ambiguity to the game.
    Did he, or didn't he?

    Call less fouls, and it doesn't matter.

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    • #17
      JimiCliff wrote: View Post
      Because I think real issue at hand precedes it (as I've written): a team should not be able to foul strategically.
      That, to me, makes the game much more boring. Strategic fouling at the end of the game is essential to try to make up a deficit before time runs out. Would you outlaw that as well. So when teams are down 6 points with 30 seconds to go you might as well just call the game over?

      The fact is, it's only a very very very small minority or PROFESSIONAL Basketball Players that can't his FT's at a reasonable rate (emphasis on professional because FT's aren't that fucking hard. I suck at basketball and can hit 70% without any trouble). I don't think we should protect these shitty FT shooters with a special rule just for them. If they just got up to 60% it wouldn't be worth it to foul them anymore. The onus is on them to get better, like the other 98% of the league.

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      • #18
        Shrub wrote: View Post
        I agree.

        I would take it one step further too, to the issue of fouls in general.
        I frankly think basketball is developing a dangerous trend with guys like Harden, who have figured out the art of drawing fouls, and the increasing prevalance of flopping. When the best player in the game is actively manipulating the rules to his advantage, it's time to change the rules.
        It's embarassing, against the spirit of competition, and it just adds such a huge element of ambiguity to the game.
        Did he, or didn't he?

        Call less fouls, and it doesn't matter.
        But this is an issue of officiating, not of rules. That is a separate problem.

        The more rules you add when officiating is poor, the more likely you are to get poor outcomes because of the enforcement of those rules.

        You don't change fouling rules because of poor FT shooters.

        I mean, would you go back to illegal D type rules? Would you call a violation of some kind because someone is sagging off a very poor shooter long-range shooter?

        Would you make doubling in the post illegal because there aren't as many dominant post-up bigs as there once was?

        Again, you just don't make adjustments based on the skills of players, especially a minority of players.

        Even Pop, a long-time user of the hacking strategy, has gone on record that he hates it. But it is what it is. I don't think you could make more than marginal changes, and still am not convinced those would be great....like:
        -Teams cannot intentionally foul players (all players) off the ball pre-bonus situation (except in last 2 minutes). The result would be a tech type call, where fouled team gets 1 shot and the ball.
        ->teams can intentionally foul players off the ball in the last 2 minutes of a quarter. Kind of sketchy, but it means if a team is down 20 in the middle of the 3rd, they wouldn't be able to use the "hack" strategy until the last 2 minutes, and for 4 minutes total in the half (counting the 4th quarter). But coaches still should be able to foul however they need to in such situations, if for no other reason that it's been a long-used tool to stop the clock.

        These wouldn't completely eliminate "hacking" though, as teams would still use it in close games. But it would really help eliminate them from games like last night to a certain degree. But again, because a guy sucks at shooting FTs, doesn't mean the rules should fully help compensate for his lack of skill. They will still get "hacked" in on-the-ball situations when the off-the-ball ones result in tech style fouls. There is no way to completely eliminate it that wouldn't be totally ludicrous and pampering players because they suck at something.

        *And FWIW, I think even the rules I propose are not to protect shitty FT shooters. I don't know about anymore, but when I reffed, which was a mix of NCAA and FIBA rules for high schools, intentional off-the-ball fouls were treated as unsportsmanlike, and resulted in FTs and possession, but counted as a normal foul on the player's foul total. Essentially a mild version of the flagrant, because if you're not making a play on the ball, you deserve a harsher punishment.
        Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat Feb 8, 2014, 03:40 PM.

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        • #19
          Only way to stop the hack-a-whoever is for whoever to learn to shoot free throws. The rules are fine the way they are.

          Adam Silver really needs to assess flopping as his first order of business. The stars of the league are giving basketball a wuss/flopping/soccer stigma and it needs to be straightened out.

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          • #20
            Jesus...it's free throws. No one is contesting you , no one is hitting you. You go to the line and sink them.
            Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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            • #21
              Keep it, its a strategic method of winning basketball games.
              A wise man once said: F*ck Brooklyn!

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              • #22
                As his first order of business, should Adam Silver eliminate the Hack-A-(Inse...

                JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                Because I think real issue at hand precedes it (as I've written): a team should not be able to foul strategically.
                Of course they should! Why would they, like white men said, make a rule that covers up a player's lack of skill?

                That's like saying, lets move the 3PT line 2 ft up for Demar.

                Actually I like that idea, make it happen silver.

                *also, it's called free throws not free points. The throws are free cause there's nobody guarding you, hence a FREE throw to the basket.
                A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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                • #23
                  white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  But I think that's on the player's inability to shoot free throws. Which in turn precedes that. No coach would employ that strategy if guys shot even a modest 65% or so from the line.
                  The order of things was:

                  1. Rules were written to prevent fouling.

                  2. These rules were twisted away from their original intent when it was realized that you could exploit certain loopholes to your advantage. Such as intentional fouling. These loopholes should have been fixed, but they never were, so we get these awful free-throw circuses.

                  Can you imagine if you were a Clips fan, or a Rockets fan, and had to watch this regularly?

                  Primer wrote: View Post
                  That, to me, makes the game much more boring. Strategic fouling at the end of the game is essential to try to make up a deficit before time runs out. Would you outlaw that as well.
                  Yes. I find it boring, and a waste of time. Just win the game straight up.

                  MixxAOR wrote: View Post
                  Jesus...it's free throws. No one is contesting you , no one is hitting you. You go to the line and sink them.
                  Everyone Who Can Dunk: "Jesus...it's a dunk. No one is contesting you. You just jump, and then you dunk."
                  "Stop eating your sushi."
                  "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                  "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                  - Jack Armstrong

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                  • #24
                    A team should be able to do anything strategically that takes advantage of a deficiency the other team has.

                    As such, fouling a poor shooter is not abusing the rules, it's abusing that player's weakness. Does it make the game slower and more boring? Yes. But it is also the right call strategically. Clippers and Rockets fans should be upset their Cs can't hit free throws. If they could, they wouldn't have to sit through such spectacles.

                    It's free throw shooting. It doesn't require amazing skill level. It's repetition of a form that gives you success. If your form isn't working, try a different one. Some guys need to step an extra foot back. Some guys need to be off-centre with the basket. Some guys need to square their feet, and some guys need to stand at a different angle. And heck yes, if every version of normal "overhanded" free throws are not working for a guy, he should try shooting underhanded. People would think DeAndre Jordan or Dwight Howard shooting 70% underhanded is a lot less funny than them chucking up awful shots and being a liability for their team shooting overhanded. It's clearly ego/pride keeping them from making adjustments. Thompson switched his shooting hand, and while not spectacular, is enjoying his best FT shooting season after roughly a year of work (think he started playing with it during the middle of last season), and I hope he's able to keep improving it a bit. Again, FT shooting is primarily repetition of the form that works best for you....IT doesn't take years of work to change it.

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                    • #25
                      e_wheazhy_ wrote: View Post
                      Of course they should! Why would they, like white men said, make a rule that covers up a player's lack of skill?

                      That's like saying, lets move the 3PT line 2 ft up for Demar.

                      Actually I like that idea, make it happen silver.

                      *also, it's called free throws not free points. The throws are free cause there's nobody guarding you, hence a FREE throw to the basket.
                      I'm going to write this just once more in this thread: you are not making up a rule that covers up a players lack of skill. You're restoring the spirit of the original rule, which is that fouls are called to penalize the player who commits the foul, not the player who's being fouled.
                      "Stop eating your sushi."
                      "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                      "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                      - Jack Armstrong

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        A team should be able to do anything strategically that takes advantage of a deficiency the other team has.

                        As such, fouling a poor shooter is not abusing the rules, it's abusing that player's weakness. Does it make the game slower and more boring? Yes. But it is also the right call strategically. Clippers and Rockets fans should be upset their Cs can't hit free throws. If they could, they wouldn't have to sit through such spectacles.

                        It's free throw shooting. It doesn't require amazing skill level. It's repetition of a form that gives you success. If your form isn't working, try a different one. Some guys need to step an extra foot back. Some guys need to be off-centre with the basket. Some guys need to square their feet, and some guys need to stand at a different angle. And heck yes, if every version of normal "overhanded" free throws are not working for a guy, he should try shooting underhanded. People would think DeAndre Jordan or Dwight Howard shooting 70% underhanded is a lot less funny than them chucking up awful shots and being a liability for their team shooting overhanded. It's clearly ego/pride keeping them from making adjustments. Thompson switched his shooting hand, and while not spectacular, is enjoying his best FT shooting season after roughly a year of work (think he started playing with it during the middle of last season), and I hope he's able to keep improving it a bit. Again, FT shooting is primarily repetition of the form that works best for you....IT doesn't take years of work to change it.
                        It is. It 100% literally is. There is no way around this.
                        "Stop eating your sushi."
                        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                        - Jack Armstrong

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                          I'm going to write this just once more in this thread: you are not making up a rule that covers up a players lack of skill. You're restoring the spirit of the original rule, which is that fouls are called to penalize the player who commits the foul, not the player who's being fouled.
                          How is it punishing the player being fouled? How? How? Once more for emphasis, HOW? He gets two FREE SHOTS. If he can't make them, that's his problem. If you're a grown man in the NBA that can't make free throws that's your fault. Change your approach, get some new shoes, hell sing shania twain at the line. Make your free throws. Giving a guy 2 free opportunities to get points is not a punishment.
                          A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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                          • #28
                            JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                            1. Rules were written to prevent fouling.
                            Rules weren't written to prevent fouling, they were written for fouling to result in a beneficial situation for the team/player being fouled. As such, the player gets free throws so that a team fouling them means they are likely giving up points. If a player is incapable of taking advantage of such a beneficial situation, that's on him, not the rules. Again, it's not the rules job to cover up a lack of skill.

                            You can validly think there are issues with intentional, off-the-ball fouls, but there's no rule change that will completely eliminate hacking. Teams will still find a way to send the worst free throw shooting to the line. For instance, fouling them on rebounds, where there's no way they can start calling all loose ball fouls on the rebound "intentional off-the-ball" fouls. That would be a disaster.

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                            • #29
                              e_wheazhy_ wrote: View Post
                              How is it punishing the player being fouled? How? How? Once more for emphasis, HOW? He gets two FREE SHOTS. If he can't make them, that's his problem. If you're a grown man in the NBA that can't make free throws that's your fault. Change your approach, get some new shoes, hell sing shania twain at the line. Make your free throws. Giving a guy 2 free opportunities to get points is not a punishment.
                              LOL, if you don't understand yet, we'll just leave it alone.
                              "Stop eating your sushi."
                              "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                              "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                              - Jack Armstrong

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                                LOL, if you don't understand yet, we'll just leave it alone.
                                Yeah because sensible discussion with valid arguments is overrated.
                                A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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