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Thread: JV needs to grow up a little bit

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    bahahahahaha....not career complainers? What, you think LeBron waited until he was MVP or a Champion before he started that?

    You are unfairly picking on JV for what nearly EVERY player does.
    Seriously...And those veterans do not "pick their battles". Some of them even argue and act out on totally obvious calls (or non-calls).

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Seriously...And those veterans do not "pick their battles". Some of them even argue and act out on totally obvious calls (or non-calls).
    haha yup. I love it when LeBron clearly fouls a guy, get's whistled and then complains about it. It's like dude, you fouled him, no biggie, just accept it. He argues calls even when the foul was the right play by him.

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    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Kendrick Perkins comes to mind. This man is legitimately shocked everytime a foul is called on him. I think 90% of calls are "bad calls" in players' minds but it's part of the game.

    Jonas needs alot of growing up to do: physically, mentally & skill-wise. His body language is only concerning from the perspective that refs may not appreciate that. He still tries on the very next play. I'd rather have him like this than someone who checks out when things don't go his way. But I agree, he has alot of growing up to do.

    My take has always been - he'll start putting everything together in his 5th year, much like DeRozan.

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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    Kendrick Perkins comes to mind. This man is legitimately shocked everytime a foul is called on him. I think 90% of calls are "bad calls" in players' minds but it's part of the game.

    Jonas needs alot of growing up to do: physically, mentally & skill-wise. His body language is only concerning from the perspective that refs may not appreciate that. He still tries on the very next play. I'd rather have him like this than someone who checks out when things don't go his way. But I agree, he has alot of growing up to do.

    My take has always been - he'll start putting everything together in his 5th year, much like DeRozan.
    Though I expect he'll still be growing after 5 years, I think he may well put it mostly together before that. One of the oft ignored assets that DeMar provides this team is the example he sets for the young guys (even though he's one himself) of how consistent hard work pays off. The team having success, getting playoff experience are also going to be big factors in his growth.

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Jonas just needs some caressing downtime with the gf and some real PnR action with Lowry to settle his blues.
    Awkward? Creepy? Both?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    haha yup. I love it when LeBron clearly fouls a guy, get's whistled and then complains about it. It's like dude, you fouled him, no biggie, just accept it. He argues calls even when the foul was the right play by him.
    Lol, reminds me of Ken Griffey's baseball for the good ol' SNES. Even when you strike out swinging, the batter would turn around and yell to the ump, "oh c'mon!"
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  9. #27
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    A lot of JVs problems result from the mismatch between the messages and expectations coming from the organization (i.e. he's the future face of the franchise, star in the making, the only untouchable) and how he's treated on the court by his teammates and coaches. When you're basically told that you're the franchise's most important piece moving forward, you're going to try and live up to those expectations with your play. Yet, when your team provides more opportunities to recently signed rotation players (Hansbrough only attempts 1 less shot per game, while playing a little over half as many minutes) you're going to get frustrated. Granted, some of the onus here falls on JV, but as a big man, he's almost completely dependent upon the team's guards to provide him with scoring opportunities. And, as a young player, its not uncommon for these frustrations to materialize as undesirable behavior on the court.
    As far as repeating the same mistakes over and over, the nba season provides few opportunities for players to improve in season, as there's little time to conduct indepth individual performance reviews, focus on subtle nuances or work on specific aspects of your game. Practice time is very valuable, and is thus mostly used to implement and practice defensive schemes, offensive sets and game plans. So, I'll reserve my judgments for next season, as those kinds of improvements are exactly what the summer's for (which, by the way, wasn't possible for JV last year between playing for his national team, summer league and training camp).

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    Quote rocwell wrote: View Post
    Has anyone ever met him in person?

    It looks like he's very sensitive dude.
    I met him, he's is a nice kid...but just that, a kid.

    He'll be fine.

    I worry more about his offensive skills than his attitude.

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    Quote Abused Raptors Fan wrote: View Post
    A lot of JVs problems result from the mismatch between the messages and expectations coming from the organization (i.e. he's the future face of the franchise, star in the making, the only untouchable) and how he's treated on the court by his teammates and coaches. When you're basically told that you're the franchise's most important piece moving forward, you're going to try and live up to those expectations with your play. Yet, when your team provides more opportunities to recently signed rotation players (Hansbrough only attempts 1 less shot per game, while playing a little over half as many minutes) you're going to get frustrated. Granted, some of the onus here falls on JV, but as a big man, he's almost completely dependent upon the team's guards to provide him with scoring opportunities. And, as a young player, its not uncommon for these frustrations to materialize as undesirable behavior on the court.
    As far as repeating the same mistakes over and over, the nba season provides few opportunities for players to improve in season, as there's little time to conduct indepth individual performance reviews, focus on subtle nuances or work on specific aspects of your game. Practice time is very valuable, and is thus mostly used to implement and practice defensive schemes, offensive sets and game plans. So, I'll reserve my judgments for next season, as those kinds of improvements are exactly what the summer's for (which, by the way, wasn't possible for JV last year between playing for his national team, summer league and training camp).
    1. ha, don't confuse fans' narratives with messages the team is sending him

    2. Hansbrough "1 less shot per game"? What stats are you looking at? That's simply not true, but you're watching different games than everybody else if you see Hansbrough getting more opportunities based on what the team does for him. The vast majority of his come from crashing the boards, and getting them himself.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    1. ha, don't confuse fans' narratives with messages the team is sending him

    2. Hansbrough "1 less shot per game"? What stats are you looking at? That's simply not true, but you're watching different games than everybody else if you see Hansbrough getting more opportunities based on what the team does for him. The vast majority of his come from crashing the boards, and getting them himself.
    I agree with both your points.

    JV right now is just not a very good offensive weapon for us. He's still got a lot of growing up to do on both ends of the floor. If he puts in the hard work to improve, i think he will become a great player for us. Until then, its unrealistic for people to expect him to be a HUGE part of our offence.

    JV needs a consistent mid-range shot. He needs to take that shot and make it from time to time. Simple as that. He also needs to convert better around the rim as i see him miss a ton of easy baskets (most recently he went 1 for 9 from the field vs Atlanta). I must admit i see improvements in his defence, but his offensive improvements ....... Hopefully, he comes back from the break with a little more confidence after playing in the rising stars game friday night.

  13. #31
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    1. The hero narrative espoused by many fans results, in part, from management's failure to adequately manage expectations for JV, particularly before his rookie season. This was then further reinforced by reports from this year stating that JV was the Raptors' only "untouchable" player, thus indicating his relative importance to the team.

    2. If you move on to the sentence right after the section you bolded, you'd see that I qualified my previous point by indicating JVs partially to blame for his perceived lack of FGAs.

    3. The Hansbrough thing was my mistake, as I was actually thinking of Vasquez. Here, Greivas averages 7 FGAs a game, despite his horrendous shooting percentages, which is only 1.4 less than JV, a center who plays 1.5 times more minutes per game. Obviously, this supports my argument that as a NBA big, JV is heavily dependent upon the guards on his team for his offensive touches (unlike fellow Raptors sophmore, Terrence Ross, who has averaged 10+ FGAs a game over the past 3 months).

    4. Your point about Hansbrough's offensive rebounding efforts does have some merit. However, if you look at his off rebounding percentage, its only slightly higher than JVs. The difference, then, is that when Hansbrough catches an offensive board, his only thought is to take the ball back up himself, even if there is a better play to make or almost no chance of making the basketball. Yes, Hansbrough does have a great ability to crash the offensive glass and get to the free throw line (which is needed on this team) but he only shots 71% from there, and 45% from the field, indicating that on a lot of those possessions, he's not the best option. Ideally, you'd have Hansbrough do that a little less (hopefully raising his FG%) while JV does it a bit more (raising his FGAs) but this isn't NBA 2K.

  14. #32
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    P.s., I'm not trying to say we should run our offense through JV, that he should get 13-15 FGAs a game, or that he's without fault and doesn't have a lot of growth/maturation left before he's any of those previous point (if ever). But, I am trying to say that he does deserve more touches than he's getting, and that the team isn't handling his development in an ideal fashion. It's just without a quality pass-first point guard or a PnR heavy offense, a team's bigs can often get forgotten over the course of the game, which happens more than it probably should with the Raptors. Also, a LOT of bigs tend to lose their intensity and focus in other areas of the game if they go long stretches without being meaningfully involved offensively (i.e. more than the obligatory post ups to start each half and setting screens).

  15. #33
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    Quote Abused Raptors Fan wrote: View Post
    P.s., I'm not trying to say we should run our offense through JV, that he should get 13-15 FGAs a game, or that he's without fault and doesn't have a lot of growth/maturation left before he's any of those previous point (if ever). But, I am trying to say that he does deserve more touches than he's getting, and that the team isn't handling his development in an ideal fashion. It's just without a quality pass-first point guard or a PnR heavy offense, a team's bigs can often get forgotten over the course of the game, which happens more than it probably should with the Raptors. Also, a LOT of bigs tend to lose their intensity and focus in other areas of the game if they go long stretches without being meaningfully involved offensively (i.e. more than the obligatory post ups to start each half and setting screens).
    And people sometimes think because of an opinion like this we're JV-lovers....It's deeper than that. It is a team-oriented problem

    The way we involve most of our players is through a jumpshot-heavy offence. Good luck getting anywhere with that. Amir and Patterson see more touches because they see perimeter touches. But there are just not enough plays, or enough of an effort being made to get points down low and in the lane for our bigs. It's never good to be a jumpshooting team, especially when you have few quality jumpshooters, and you run no inside-out game. We don't even post up DeMar. And considering how little we run anything through the post, I'm convinced it's more because of design than because of DeMar's reluctance to go there.

    *I mean, yes we want JV's development to be handled better, but only in the sense that the team should be doing things that would be good for his development, and our bigs' involvement anyway.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Feb 13th, 2014 at 07:02 PM.

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  17. #34
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    Part of its definitely because Lowry is a unique point guard in that he doesn't play a lot of PnR, yet he's also not like some other guards who look to get teammates open looks by breaking down the D by driving into the paint and kicking it out for a 3, passing to a slashing guard or dumping it off to a waiting big. Not that he doesn't do either of those, its just that Lowry generates a lot of offense on the perimeter, especially his own as over half his attempts come from behind the arc (with almost 2/3s of his FGAs coming from at least 16' away from the rim). This wouldn't be a problem, really, if we had more facilitators on our team but its pretty thin outside Lowry, Vasquez and DD (since the trade).

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    And people sometimes think because of an opinion like this we're JV-lovers....It's deeper than that. It is a team-oriented problem

    The way we involve most of our players is through a jumpshot-heavy offence. Good luck getting anywhere with that. Amir and Patterson see more touches because they see perimeter touches. But there are just not enough plays, or enough of an effort being made to get points down low and in the lane for our bigs. It's never good to be a jumpshooting team, especially when you have few quality jumpshooters, and you run no inside-out game. We don't even post up DeMar. And considering how little we run anything through the post, I'm convinced it's more because of design than because of DeMar's reluctance to go there.

    *I mean, yes we want JV's development to be handled better, but only in the sense that the team should be doing things that would be good for his development, and our bigs' involvement anyway.
    This x1000000

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  20. #36
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    Quote Abused Raptors Fan wrote: View Post
    Part of its definitely because Lowry is a unique point guard in that he doesn't play a lot of PnR, yet he's also not like some other guards who look to get teammates open looks by breaking down the D by driving into the paint and kicking it out for a 3, passing to a slashing guard or dumping it off to a waiting big. Not that he doesn't do either of those, its just that Lowry generates a lot of offense on the perimeter, especially his own as over half his attempts come from behind the arc (with almost 2/3s of his FGAs coming from at least 16' away from the rim). This wouldn't be a problem, really, if we had more facilitators on our team but its pretty thin outside Lowry, Vasquez and DD (since the trade).
    This.

    DeMar's next evolution is breaking down the D with the dribble. Lowry is drive & kick type and Vasquez is too slow that he doesn't really get into the lane as much.

    JV, Amir & Patty P are not skilled in the post where you can run the offense through them there. I can honestly say DeMar is our best post player but that creates an imbalance & even he can't take everyone there - match up dependent.

    Until JV shows he can be a threat down low almost everytime he has the ball down there, I wouldn't run too many plays through him. He gets a few looks & has pretty much 1 go to move.

    He should get better with time. Right now, his role is good for where he is in his development.

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    C'mon, JV is 21. He'll get there eventually

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  23. #38
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    Quote Abused Raptors Fan wrote: View Post
    A lot of JVs problems result from the mismatch between the messages and expectations coming from the organization (i.e. he's the future face of the franchise, star in the making, the only untouchable) and how he's treated on the court by his teammates and coaches. When you're basically told that you're the franchise's most important piece moving forward, you're going to try and live up to those expectations with your play. Yet, when your team provides more opportunities to recently signed rotation players (Hansbrough only attempts 1 less shot per game, while playing a little over half as many minutes) you're going to get frustrated. Granted, some of the onus here falls on JV, but as a big man, he's almost completely dependent upon the team's guards to provide him with scoring opportunities. And, as a young player, its not uncommon for these frustrations to materialize as undesirable behavior on the court.
    As far as repeating the same mistakes over and over, the nba season provides few opportunities for players to improve in season, as there's little time to conduct indepth individual performance reviews, focus on subtle nuances or work on specific aspects of your game. Practice time is very valuable, and is thus mostly used to implement and practice defensive schemes, offensive sets and game plans. So, I'll reserve my judgments for next season, as those kinds of improvements are exactly what the summer's for (which, by the way, wasn't possible for JV last year between playing for his national team, summer league and training camp).
    Good post. His perceived expectations definitely play into the dynamics of this.

  24. #39
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    Honestly, he doesn't need to grow up any more. He's already 7'0 tall

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    Quote navyblues wrote: View Post
    The other thing that makes him seem kind of childish is that he never, ever accepts a foul being called on him. Obviously there are going to be questionable calls. But every time, JV goes for the Oscar: "who, me!?" or he does his patented wrist-drop dismissal gesture that's already garnered him a tech or two. The kid needs to learn to focus on the game no matter what is going on with the refs, and not expect to get bailed out with a whistle when he misses a rebound battle.
    Forgive me if it's already been mentioned, I'm at work and didn't read the whole thread, but to me that's a sign of supreme confidence. There isn't a superstar in the league that doesn't do this exact same thing and I'd rather he argued calls and felt like he was infallible while he's out there than slink away downcast afterward, because unshakeable confidence is one of the necessary attributes of any successful professional athlete.

    In fact a lot of what makes JV a frustrating player right now seems to me to be exactly what you expect from a young player who is used to greatness and is now dealing with mediocrity: his black-hole-ness in the post, his frustration at being looked off, his frustration with calls, etc. That shows me he expects great things from himself and isn't shying away from trying to live up to his own lofty standards. The skills will eventually catch up with that attitude and when they do he's going to be just fine.

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