NBA Mt. Rushmore

[Red and White]

no way is Kobe on that second list....over Oscar Robertson? The guy averaged a triple double. The guy is arguably the most versatile, complete basketball player of all time.

You could definitely make the argument for a bunch of guys up there above Kobe (Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Robertson), but whenever I revisit Kobe's numbers he put up for the entirety of the 2000s (especially in the playoffs) where he was the best scorer in the game, on all-defensive teams, hitting huge shots for the Lakers whilst winning multiple championships, I feel convinced he is one of the greatest to ever play, based on his skill and talent. It is real easy to forget how truly dominant he was. I believe we've argued about this before in a thread, it's just an opinion, but I think he is a top all-time guy when it comes to ability (above many other "greats").

Robertson is tricky for me. I never watched him play, and have only seen highlights here or there. All I can really say is that if we ran on statistics alone, without context, him and Wilt would be considered the greatest two who ever played. I don't believe that to be true.

[white men can't jump]

You could definitely make the argument for a bunch of guys up there above Kobe (Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Robertson), but whenever I revisit Kobe's numbers he put up for the entirety of the 2000s (especially in the playoffs) where he was the best scorer in the game, on all-defensive teams, hitting huge shots for the Lakers whilst winning multiple championships, I feel convinced he is one of the greatest to ever play, based on his skill and talent. It is real easy to forget how truly dominant he was. I believe we've argued about this before in a thread, it's just an opinion, but I think he is a top all-time guy when it comes to ability (above many other "greats").

Robertson is tricky for me. I never watched him play, and have only seen highlights here or there. All I can really say is that if we ran on statistics alone, without context, him and Wilt would be considered the greatest two who ever played. I don't believe that to be true.

I've only seen "classics" games of Robertson, and whatever highlights I can find. But also including everything I've read he's arguably the most dominant guard (he was 6'5'', so not a "wing", he was truly a SG in size) to ever play the game. He is the only guard in NBA history to average 10+ rebounds for a season. He could score inside, outside and pass. He could post up. He could drive. He could shoot. I think it's possible to rank him as the best perimeter talent ever. It's not the same as Wilt, who while obviously talented, was also bigger and more athletic than guys he was matched up against. Oscar was strong, but again, he was just 6'5''. He was literally a more skilled player than everyone else around him.

*I think the thing that bugs me about Kobe...is that he had the benefit of playing for the Lakers. If he had ended up on any other team, that probably doesn't commit to winning as much, he might never end up in such discussions. He'd be a "forgotten" great like George Gervin (one of the most dominant scorers ever, but just never had the teams to bring him top level of success, and thus recognition).

[Red and White]

I've only seen "classics" games of Robertson, and whatever highlights I can find. But also including everything I've read he's arguably the most dominant guard (he was 6'5'', so not a "wing", he was truly a SG in size) to ever play the game. He is the only guard in NBA history to average 10+ rebounds for a season. He could score inside, outside and pass. He could post up. He could drive. He could shoot. I think it's possible to rank him as the best perimeter talent ever. It's not the same as Wilt, who while obviously talented, was also bigger and more athletic than guys he was matched up against. Oscar was strong, but again, he was just 6'5''. He was literally a more skilled player than everyone else around him.

In the year 1961, Oscar Robertson averaged a triple-double (31, 12, 11) and Wilt averaged 50 points and 26 rebounds. This was the best year of both their careers, by far. I view these guys similarly - amazing basketball players who look even more amazing because of their competition.

They were both very talented players who dominated over a field of (far) less-talented players. That is why I would hesitate before taking Oscar or Wilt (who played against guys who had part-time jobs outside of basketball) over a guy who I know played in a truly competitive league (which the NBA was in the late 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s). Not to mention, Kobe won more consistently in a more competitive era than either of these guys did in theirs. Can Oscar average double-digit rebounds in any other era, and can Wilt average 9 assists in any other era? I'm not totally sure, but I don't think so.

Obviously, this can't take away totally from what they did. I'm confident that if you put these guys in any time of the NBA, they would be amazing players.Still, I'd take a bunch of guys over Oscar and Wilt.

[Axel]

The first 3 for me is easy.

Bill Russell - the ultimate champion
Wilt Chamberlain - the greatest offensive player
Michael Jordan - the greatest of all-time

The 4th spot is quite tough.

Dr J helped define an era and brought the dunk to the NBA
Magic/Bird carried the 80s
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson

In the end, I'd vote Dr. J to join Russell, Wilt and MJ.

Kobe isn't in the conversation for me. Neither are lots of Hall of Famers; Shaq, Stockton, Duncan, Hakeem. Not sure LeBron can crack that top list for consideration either.

[white men can't jump]

In the year 1961, Oscar Robertson averaged a triple-double (31, 12, 11) and Wilt averaged 50 points and 26 rebounds. This was the best year of both their careers, by far. I view these guys similarly - amazing basketball players who look even more amazing because of their competition.

They were both very talented players who dominated over a field of (far) less-talented players. That is why I would hesitate before taking Oscar or Wilt (who played against guys who had part-time jobs outside of basketball) over a guy who I know played in a truly competitive league (which the NBA was in the late 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s). Not to mention, Kobe won more consistently in a more competitive era than either of these guys did in theirs. Can Oscar average double-digit rebounds in any other era, and can Wilt average 9 assists in any other era? I'm not totally sure, but I don't think so.

Obviously, this can't take away totally from what they did. I'm confident that if you put these guys in any time of the NBA, they would be amazing players.Still, I'd take a bunch of guys over Oscar and Wilt.

But a similar argument works against Kobe. Parity has not been on a linear trajectory. One of the reasons Magic and Bird are thought of so highly is that the era they played in has so far been the one with the most amount of uniquely talented dominant players. So many quality players at every position.

And then there's the general flaw in the "eras" argument. If these guys (Oscar, Wilt), were so obviously a cut above, how come they struggled to win? They weren't bad team players. It was because the league was actually better than it is often given credit for, just because the level of athleticism and creativity in the game was lower....like it was across all sports in that era. Robertson still had to put up those numbers and achieve whatever success he did playing 5-on-5 basketball where most guys on the court are peak athletes for their era. The relativity of the argument has to be kept in place. Because then you're saying "well these guys may not have been as special" in X era...Well you can also say maybe with modern training and health maintenance, Oscar would've been an even more impressive player (regardless of stats). He may have dominated regardless because he was just that amazing a pro. If Oscar was playing during Kobe's era, even if he's not averaging a triple-double, he could've put up LeBron type numbers as a 6'5'' SG and been the best perimeter player in the league.

*I dislike the "eras" argument because it makes it sound like it's unique that dominant players in their era are usually freaks. It's not. Kobe had elite athleticism even in this passing era. LeBron is at least as big a freak as Wilt or the Big O relative to his competition. Shaq...Hakeem...Kareem....In one way or another these guys are always physical/athletic freaks in a manner that gives them some kind of inherent advantage. It's still up to them to be talented and use that advantage in a way that brings them success. It's a "whole package" situation. You can be a freak and never have the talent, or never use it well enough to dominate. And you can have the talent and use, but if you don't have some level of freak in you you'll never dominate. **The exception has got to be Bird. Dude was not a standout athlete in any way, though I suppose you could argue he had unique size that surely helped him.

[The Great One]

The first 3 for me is easy.

Bill Russell - the ultimate champion
Wilt Chamberlain - the greatest offensive player
Michael Jordan - the greatest of all-time

The 4th spot is quite tough.

Dr J helped define an era and brought the dunk to the NBA
Magic/Bird carried the 80s
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson

In the end, I'd vote Dr. J to join Russell, Wilt and MJ.

Kobe isn't in the conversation for me. Neither are lots of Hall of Famers; Shaq, Stockton, Duncan, Hakeem. Not sure LeBron can crack that top list for consideration either.

No love for Kareem? I mean seriously, Kareem is probably the most disrespected NBA great. You can make an argument that he's the greatest of all time. 6x MVP 19x All Star 6x NBA Champion. #1 on the All Time Scoring list. Possessed the most unguardable shots of all time in the sky hook.

Speaking of the sky hook. I'm surprised no other big man has ever used it or tried to master it.

[Red and White]

Yeah all fair points, and I agree that people (even me) make 1960s basketball sound worse than it was. And yes, the "era" argument is definitely flawed in a bunch of ways (ignores a bunch of variables). Despite these flaws, it still needs to be considered (even if it isn't considered as much as I would like). You can't tell me "Oscar over Kobe because Oscar averaged a triple-double and was a talented all-around player". Context is needed.

It doesn't just matter that his opponents were often far worse than he was, but also that his teammates were too. For the most part, Oscar played on bad teams (same with Wilt). He dominated the ball, had full reign of the offence and could do whatever he wanted to do (same with Wilt, but Wilt has a notorious reputation of stat-padding which I don't know if Oscar does). This just isn't something that really happens after this period of basketball. His championship ring came when he played behind a young Kareem (and Oscar's statistics, while still impressive, were far below his career averages, far below any triple double). In any era, why would putting up great numbers on bad teams be rewarded?

Also, you can say "What if Kobe was never traded to the Lakers," but the fact of the matter is that he was, and he dominated, and he put up amazing numbers, and he won 5 rings.

I don't think one is clearly over the other here, it's an interesting debate though.

[Axel]

No love for Kareem? I mean seriously, Kareem is probably the most disrespected NBA great. You can make an argument that he's the greatest of all time. 6x MVP 19x All Star 6x NBA Champion. #1 on the All Time Scoring list. Possessed the most unguardable shots of all time in the sky hook.

Speaking of the sky hook. I'm surprised no other big man has ever used it or tried to master it.

I think Kareem falls short in every one of his strengths when compared to the others though.

His 6 Championships are nice, but they don't touch Bill Russell's 11. So Kareem isn't the ultimate Champion and really only tied Jordan in that regard too.

His is the all-time scorer, but he was never as dominant a scorer as Wilt. Wilt's had a better career scoring average 30.1 to 24.6 while his best season average of 50.4 is un-real. Wilt was also the superior rebounder (22 to 11 career average). Kareem just played longer than Wilt. Wilt is the greatest offensive player in history.

I don't think anyone would bump Jordan, so let's move to the final spot.

Dr J vs Kareem. I gave Dr. J the spot for his legacy to the game, the slam dunk. Like your post says, not many people have replicated the sky hook, while the slam dunk that Dr. J popularized is a staple of the game today.

[ezz_bee]

no way is Kobe on that second list....over Oscar Robertson? The guy averaged a triple double. The guy is arguably the most versatile, complete basketball player of all time.

In the year 1961, Oscar Robertson averaged a triple-double (31, 12, 11) and Wilt averaged 50 points and 26 rebounds. This was the best year of both their careers, by far. I view these guys similarly - amazing basketball players who look even more amazing because of their competition.

Can Oscar average double-digit rebounds in any other era, and can Wilt average 9 assists in any other era? I'm not totally sure, but I don't think so.

My Rushmore is

Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell
Micheal Jordan
N/A

If you can only have four, I'll just take those three. There are too many players who are equally deserving of the final spot (Bird/Magic/Kareem...)

I can't find the original quote, but when Phil Jackson (you know, the guy who coached Jordan & Kobe) was asked about how good Robertson would be if he played in today's NBA, Jackson Response was that he would "only" average 15-5-5, but that was because he is now in his sixty's.

I'm sure Jackson was being hyperbolic, but the point he was trying to make was that he believes Oscar would have dominated this era as well. Oscar Robertson is the G.O.A.T according to both Jackson and Kareem (and many others). I just don't see how you can leave him off the list.

[Quirk]

Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird

[Bendit]

Well, the real one has Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt, so it's clearly not just for the founders

You are correct but all four Presidents selected had a monumental achievement during their presidency...Washington (independence from the Brits), Jefferson (the constitution), Lincoln (the civil war/abolition of slavery beginning) and Roosevelt (WW2 and the economic boom still reverberating in America). So, Craig is correct in a sense....not founders but titans in history who changed the game as we know it.

For myself, Naismith (creator), Mikan (the big man game), Russell (centre defense), Oscar Robertson (guard play). Each was the first to revolutionize their position. imo.

[BobLoblaw]

You are correct but all four Presidents selected had a monumental achievement during their presidency...Washington (independence from the Brits), Jefferson (the constitution), Lincoln (the civil war/abolition of slavery beginning) and Roosevelt (WW2 and the economic boom still reverberating in America). So, Craig is correct in a sense....not founders but titans in history who changed the game as we know it.

For myself, Naismith (creator), Mikan (the big man game), Russell (centre defense), Oscar Robertson (guard play). Each was the first to revolutionize their position. imo.

It's Ted Roosevelt, pre WW1. He has his share of accomplishments but he's probably there in large part because he was a contemporary, he died just a few years prior to starting Mount Rushmore and he was very popular and involved in political life until his death. If it was built today, there might be someone else there, Franklin Roosevelt maybe, or Harry Truman, or JFK.

Anyway, for the most part I agree on your description of MR, 'titans in history', people 'who changed the game'. It's how we perceive it today and that's what matters. But I wouldn't limit it so strictly to the 40s-60s like Craig did. Cousy, Mikan, Baylor, Bill Russell, that's way too narrow, besides Baylor shouldn't even have a spot over Wilt and Jerry West in that era.

[Bendit]

It's Ted Roosevelt, pre WW1. He has his share of accomplishments but he's probably there in large part because he was a contemporary, he died just a few years prior to starting Mount Rushmore and he was very popular and involved in political life until his death. If it was built today, there might be someone else there, Franklin Roosevelt maybe, or Harry Truman, or JFK.

Anyway, for the most part I agree on your description of MR, 'titans in history', people 'who changed the game'. It's how we perceive it today and that's what matters. But I wouldn't limit it so strictly to the 40s-60s like Craig did. Cousy, Mikan, Baylor, Bill Russell, that's way too narrow, besides Baylor shouldn't even have a spot over Wilt and Jerry West in that era.

Thanks for the correction....remembered the name (not the correct one though )...he had some serious accomplishments too. 4 is too restrictive I agree which is why I tried to be analogous to the reasoning I believe used for the carvings.

[Shrub]

This NBA Mount Rushmore thing is silly.
It's become such a hot topic precisely because it is always controversial.
It isn't possible not to snub worthy players.

Don't feed the stupid.

[Mr.Z]

Jordan, Magic, Russell, West.

EDIT: Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Russell?! Fuck this is too hard