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Should Casey pull the reins in on Derozan isolation's down the stretch?

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  • #76
    JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    My guess is that it was a "They'll never suspect this!" type play call.
    Yeah...nor should they....

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    • #77
      JimiCliff wrote: View Post
      So where does the Handsbrough play call on the second-last possession fit in with this thinking?
      I don't know that it has to. It's a take on what I see on the court, hear in interviews and read in print.

      The fact Hansbro had the ball late strikes as a reaction to the defence, the development of the play or it could even be as simple as 'they are loading up on X look inside see if we can catch them napping'.

      To OP's original question, its important to know what you have in a player and what you don't. I doubt the intention was to test ISOs reliability as a close out strategy.

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      • #78
        Raptor Jesus wrote: View Post
        I don't know that it has to. It's a take on what I see on the court, hear in interviews and read in print.

        The fact Hansbro had the ball late strikes as a reaction to the defence, the development of the play or it could even be as simple as 'they are loading up on X look inside see if we can catch them napping'.

        To OP's original question, its important to know what you have in a player and what you don't. I doubt the intention was to test ISOs reliability as a close out strategy.
        Right, but you were claiming that they're putting future development before winning now. If that's the case, there's no way they give Handsbro that play - in fact, there's no way he'd even be in the game; it'd be Val in there.
        "Stop eating your sushi."
        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
        - Jack Armstrong

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        • #79
          I am of the opinion that Val can get a read on how the defence reacted from the bench and game tape. They can also apply the teaching points from this loss in a future game this season. With the added benefit that should Val be on the court in that context the bulls don't necessarily have a read on him.

          The teaching opportunity here arises through the loss. Nobody is suggesting they employ plays with the intent to fail. The fact it failed allows for growth.

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          • #80
            JimiCliff wrote: View Post
            Right, but you were claiming that they're putting future development before winning now. If that's the case, there's no way they give Handsbro that play - in fact, there's no way he'd even be in the game; it'd be Val in there.
            Yeah I find this ridiculous. Casey is the ultimate win now guy from my point of view. Any mistake from JV or Ross and he flips out at them and drags them from the game. If he was about development and letting players learn on the fly, he would let them play through some of the tough scenarios they face in game instead of dragging them at an instant. I genuinely believe he thinks that his end game ISO calls are the BEST option for the raptors to win the game.

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            • #81
              The one thing I absolutely hate about Casey is his stubbornness. He never makes any sort of adjustment even when its not working!! He let Rudy do whatever he wanted on the offense even though he was shooting 38%. He also calls himself a defensive minded coach but never tried to get Andrea bargnani to play any defense. When demar constantly lets players blow by him on closeouts and other plays he never reprimands him! But as soon as Terrence Ross or Jonas do anything remotely bad be yanks them and yells at them. He and Masai always talk about development but by letting the younger guys see that if Coach Casey coins you the best player you don't have to play any defense! You don't have to take smart shots! You can do whatever you like because your the player Casey deemed "Our Guy"!! This is why id be extremely happy if Casey was not brought back next year! Everything he does is inconsistent from player to player
              "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

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              • #82
                Before I get saddled with defending Casey or advocating for his contract extension, I just want to say there seems to me to be method behind his madness. Right or wrong we'll know the results of his efforts pretty soon.

                I tend to agree he's short with JV and TRoss. Though having watched coaches coddle AB perhaps airing on the stricter side is advantageous.

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                • #83
                  The coaches job is to put his team in the best possible situation to succeed and to foster long term development.

                  I don't buy that forcing DD to go 1-on-1 against a good defender is developing him in any way shape or form. DD can go at Ross in practice without the mental let-down of feeling like he has failed his teammates, coaches and fans in front of everyone. There is simply no defensible reasoning that supports this.

                  ISO has been proven (and nicely pointed out in this thread) to be ineffective. This isn't the Allen Iverson days of the NBA. ISO is too simplistic to even put a strain on the defence. The D knows what is coming, can approach the possession prepared (mentally and via film room pre-scouting) and throw a wrinkle in (quick double team, adjust angles) that the individual ball handler now must adjust to on the fly. To be successful offensively, you need to put pressure on the D and force them out of their ideal positioning/rotations. ISO cannot achieve this.

                  Casey deserves a F grade for late-game play calling. This isn't about Demar, it's about Casey. Casey is failing in all levels of his mandate by calling an iso with the game on the line.
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                  • #84
                    Axel wrote: View Post
                    The coaches job is to put his team in the best possible situation to succeed and to foster long term development.

                    I don't buy that forcing DD to go 1-on-1 against a good defender is developing him in any way shape or form. DD can go at Ross in practice without the mental let-down of feeling like he has failed his teammates, coaches and fans in front of everyone. There is simply no defensible reasoning that supports this.

                    ISO has been proven (and nicely pointed out in this thread) to be ineffective. This isn't the Allen Iverson days of the NBA. ISO is too simplistic to even put a strain on the defence. The D knows what is coming, can approach the possession prepared (mentally and via film room pre-scouting) and throw a wrinkle in (quick double team, adjust angles) that the individual ball handler now must adjust to on the fly. To be successful offensively, you need to put pressure on the D and force them out of their ideal positioning/rotations. ISO cannot achieve this.

                    Casey deserves a F grade for late-game play calling. This isn't about Demar, it's about Casey. Casey is failing in all levels of his mandate by calling an iso with the game on the line.
                    Great post.

                    If Casey really does want to get DeMar the shot, run a damn play for him to get open. Even guys like LeBron struggle to score on late game isolation plays.

                    Don't understand why you'd ask DeRozan to go one on one against one of the best perimeter defenders in the league off the dribble.

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                    • #85
                      Axel wrote: View Post
                      The coaches job is to put his team in the best possible situation to succeed and to foster long term development.

                      I don't buy that forcing DD to go 1-on-1 against a good defender is developing him in any way shape or form. DD can go at Ross in practice without the mental let-down of feeling like he has failed his teammates, coaches and fans in front of everyone. There is simply no defensible reasoning that supports this.

                      ISO has been proven (and nicely pointed out in this thread) to be ineffective. This isn't the Allen Iverson days of the NBA. ISO is too simplistic to even put a strain on the defence. The D knows what is coming, can approach the possession prepared (mentally and via film room pre-scouting) and throw a wrinkle in (quick double team, adjust angles) that the individual ball handler now must adjust to on the fly. To be successful offensively, you need to put pressure on the D and force them out of their ideal positioning/rotations. ISO cannot achieve this.

                      Casey deserves a F grade for late-game play calling. This isn't about Demar, it's about Casey. Casey is failing in all levels of his mandate by calling an iso with the game on the line.
                      Here, here. Even Lebron, Wade and Durant almost always have plays called for them in end of game situations. Very few NBA coaches actually call a heavy diet of ISOs anymore. The defensive schemes are just too good these days. Other than Casey, I can only think of 2 - Mike Brown (with Kyrie) and Mike Woodson (with Melo). And how's that working out for them?

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                      • #86
                        Pop with Parker, Phil with Kobe/Michael, Blazers, Frank vogel Paul George, Scott Brooks Kevin Durant PJ Carlisimo/Kidd Joe Johnson..


                        ISOs are still heavily used in end of game situations.

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                        • #87
                          Letter N wrote: View Post
                          Here's a fun stat:

                          In the last minute of a game where we trail by 3-point or less this season (12 times this has happened this season) Demar Derozan is.................................2 for 11!!!!!!
                          He did go 3 for 4 from the line is such situations, but 0 for 2 from 3.


                          Kyle Lowry is 2 for 4, and 1 for 2 from 3.


                          Edit:
                          Here's the page if you want to play around with the different situations to see how little Casey pays attention to these stats.
                          http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerClu...rowsPerPage=25
                          He hit one big game winning shot at Orlando last year and ever since Casey has fallen in love with the ISO.

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                          • #88
                            Axel wrote: View Post
                            The coaches job is to put his team in the best possible situation to succeed and to foster long term development.

                            I don't buy that forcing DD to go 1-on-1 against a good defender is developing him in any way shape or form. DD can go at Ross in practice without the mental let-down of feeling like he has failed his teammates, coaches and fans in front of everyone. There is simply no defensible reasoning that supports this.

                            ISO has been proven (and nicely pointed out in this thread) to be ineffective. This isn't the Allen Iverson days of the NBA. ISO is too simplistic to even put a strain on the defence. The D knows what is coming, can approach the possession prepared (mentally and via film room pre-scouting) and throw a wrinkle in (quick double team, adjust angles) that the individual ball handler now must adjust to on the fly. To be successful offensively, you need to put pressure on the D and force them out of their ideal positioning/rotations. ISO cannot achieve this.

                            Casey deserves a F grade for late-game play calling. This isn't about Demar, it's about Casey. Casey is failing in all levels of his mandate by calling an iso with the game on the line.
                            Hopefully this is not lost on MU when assessing coaching situation for next year.

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                            • #89
                              Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
                              Pop with Parker, Phil with Kobe/Michael, Blazers, Frank vogel Paul George, Scott Brooks Kevin Durant PJ Carlisimo/Kidd Joe Johnson..


                              ISOs are still heavily used in end of game situations.
                              Spurs don't ISO Parker. They use a high screen and roll with Duncan, with shooters to space the floor (see Leonard winner)

                              Kobe is one of the few players in the NBA that can score on an ISO

                              Blazers run out of the low block with Aldridge, which is a a bit different than a perimeter ISO

                              Brooks does run a clear out, but the spacing is much better than what Casey told our guys to do. He leaves the left corner with only 1 guy, so the right handed pass is easy, Casey had 3 guys jammed in the left corner so there was no option there.


                              Casey should not be given a new contract. He has terrible sets, his rotations are brutal and don't forget how bad his player development is, if we are to continue building through the draft (even with later picks), we need a coach that will be able to get the most out of them, not sit them unjustly for a vet.

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                              • #90
                                psrs1 wrote: View Post
                                He hit one big game winning shot at Orlando last year and ever since Casey has fallen in love with the ISO.
                                It's not even just DeRozan either. Casey was doing the same thing with Gay prior to the trade. This is all about poor coaching and bad play calling.

                                I agree that players learn from in-game experience (other than young players like Valanciunas and Ross, apparently), but DeRozan and company should be learning how to execute effective team-oriented end-game plays in the clutch, not this ISO crap.

                                I don't even have any issue with DeRozan getting the ball (although I'd prefer Lowry for his more natural dribbling and playmaking skills), but he should be given a far better opportunity to get a cleaner look at a more efficient shot, while also have definitive backup options in mind. Simply giving him the ball while the other 4 players stand around is completely ineffective and a recipe for instilling bad habits (ie: selfish play, inefficient shot selection and poor decision making). If DC truly wants to develop DeRozan and make him a better player, it needs to start with better coaching.

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