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Thread: Is this season a success if we make the play offs?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    I wish i had add the next questions to my original post and knew what you guys thought about them.

    1) if this season is already success, then what is your expectation for this team for the next season ?

    2) Do we need to get passed the 1st round in the play offs next season to consider it success or MU can relax about seriously competing for next season ?
    Since this is essentially one question....

    There is no expectation for next season. Can't determine that at all until we get to the summer and certain things play out (ie. Lowry). Success need not move on a linear trajectory, and making the 1st or 2nd round this year does not mean failing to improve on that next year is a failure. Maybe he doesn't like the price of Lowry, and doesn't like the other options...Then maybe he decides to tank. Maybe he can turn whatever capspace and/or assets we have into an upgrade at a position that would move us a notch higher.

    My only expectations at this point are
    -Avoid bad contracts that screw flexibility (the BC strategy)
    -Don't trade draft picks (mostly just 1st rounders) without getting quality players (somewhere on the star spectrum) back

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    I wish i had add the next questions to my original post and knew what you guys thought about them.

    1) if this season is already success, then what is your expectation for this team for the next season ?

    2) Do we need to get passed the 1st round in the play offs next season to consider it success or MU can relax about seriously competing for next season ?
    1. JV, Ross, DeMar all get better, Kyle Lowry is resigned to a reasonable contract, We draft a rookie at either the PF/C OR SF position, hope to get a more competent coach, win close to 50 games and have a legit shot at winning against the elite teams of the east.

    2.We definitely need to get past the 1st round next year to even consider it to be a success, but if lowry isnt resigned and the tank is on then everything changes because without lowry were a no mans land team
    Bring back the physical game and send the softies home.

  3. #23
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    Quote 4hunnit_degreez wrote: View Post
    1. JV, Ross, DeMar all get better, Kyle Lowry is resigned to a reasonable contract, We draft a rookie at either the PF/C OR SF position, hope to get a more competent coach, win close to 50 games and have a legit shot at winning against the elite teams of the east.

    2.We definitely need to get past the 1st round next year to even consider it to be a success, but if lowry isnt resigned and the tank is on then everything changes because without lowry were a no mans land team
    Success is not always linear.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    I view the question posed in the opening post to be somewhat restrictive...in that it appears to deal with this season only. I am more a sustainability concerned fan. With all the decisions (and non decisions) made this season and what will transpire this summer leading to the Raptors team on the floor next year will tell the tale in my view. The performance of the team say the first quarter of next season will be more indicative of this season's success (including whatever happens in the playoffs). In another word...sustainability of and improvement on the current success. If we are able to build on this...then, yes.

    ps...is any NY Knick fan celebrating the 54 win season they had last year? The circumstances are not the same obviously but ...

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Ummm sorry dude, but I'm pretty sure it was Austin Daye that made that impact and taught them all how to compete hard, and win.

    hater!
    #Daye4MVP
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    The performance of the team say the first quarter of next season will be more indicative of this season's success (including whatever happens in the playoffs). In another word...sustainability of and improvement on the current success. If we are able to build on this...then, yes.
    That is an excellent point.
    I think this is what was missing the most in BC era. He was changing the team and the direction almost every season.

    So if MU decided to compete this year and miss on one of the biggest drafts of the decade, will it translate to success next year ?
    Or the circumstances ( not signing lowry or ...) will voce this team to change direction and go for a tank next season ?

    You raised a very valid point that was missing from this discussion.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    I wish i had add the next questions to my original post and knew what you guys thought about them.

    1) if this season is already success, then what is your expectation for this team for the next season ?

    2) Do we need to get passed the 1st round in the play offs next season to consider it success or MU can relax about seriously competing for next season ?
    1) Next season I expect us to have a new coach and a better wing rotation and a good low post presence. Right now I am not too convinced that with just internal growth we will be able to make that next step from mediocre to contending.

    2) I have no expectations for the teams win/loss record next season. It all depends on what moves are made at the draft/summer. I'll re-evaluate come training camp

    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Ummm sorry dude, but I'm pretty sure it was Austin Daye that made that impact and taught them all how to compete hard, and win.

    hater!
    You're right...I should give credit where credit is due. Our resident KD was instrumental in our turnaround

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    My only expectations at this point are
    -Avoid bad contracts that screw flexibility (the BC strategy)
    -Don't trade draft picks (mostly just 1st rounders) without getting quality players (somewhere on the star spectrum) back
    I agree. Though I would even be looking for more than just quality players for draft picks. Only reason I would like to see one going out is for a star that really fills a need. Otherwise those rookie contracts and the rookies themselves will be just as plausible to be quality.

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  10. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    The positives of this season have to be stated again.

    1) MU traded Bargnani and Gay and got smaller more manageable contracts with upside in one case and draft picks in another.
    2) DeMar became an all-star
    3) Ross and JV both grew as sophomores
    4) The Raptors still have enough money on the books to go after a max contract player in 2015.
    5) The Raptors still have their 2014 and 2015 draft picks

    With that said.. the win/loss record and any playoff success they have this year will probably not dictate how they respond next season. I can even see them taking a step back (eg, Lowry leaves) so they can take two steps forward the following year. I am always in favour of getting things done quickly but MU has 4 more years on his contract. If they stumble next season they still have pieces that can help them get to the next level. Miami may not always be as strong either (Wade is getting older, Bosh/James may both leave). Indiana is still a small-market team and they have 2 max-contracts and limited funds to get better. Toronto can jump into contender status but patience is probably needed.

    Keys to success will be what MU can do with trades this summer. Does he resign Lowry and at what price? Do DD/TR/JV all come back? What happens to Amir? Do they use their mid-level and on who? Who does he draft? I'm not sure but my gut believes that MU is going to make a bold move that will alter the team that we've seen this year. And that alteration could cause the team to do worse than they did this year. Not sure it will be a tank for 2015 but it could end up that way and I'm okay with that.

    The Raptors have a long way to go before they become legitimate contenders. Organic growth could get them there but I think TL is looking for star power and that is still lacking despite the fact that they have an all-star and a guy that should have been an all-star.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    And that alteration could cause the team to do worse than they did this year. Not sure it will be a tank for 2015 but it could end up that way and I'm okay with that.
    Wouldn't that be just continues of BC era policies ? going from play offs and competing then to tanking and ... Where would be a grand plan, continuity, direction, identity and commitment to a plan ?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    Wouldn't that be just continues of BC era policies ? going from play offs and competing then to tanking and ... Where would be a grand plan, continuity, direction, identity and commitment to a plan ?
    MU's grand plan is to build a championship team. He may not consider the Raptors close to that (I know I don't). They are missing a super-star talent. They are playing in a conference where the 5th ranked team is below .500. They are playing in a conference where the 3rd ranked team doesn't make the playoffs in the West.

    So if you keep the current roster how do you turn it into a legitimate top 5 team in the league? You can try to keep it and add a super-star but then you are playing russian roulette because that super-star free agent could sign elsewhere (it's also known to happen quite a lot with this franchise).

    The key is to maintain flexibility. Have young assets on good contracts that are easy to move. It is to acquire as many of these assets as you can and hope they all grow. Then use these assets to obtain a super-star talent when that talent is not working out with their current team.

    If the Raptors do worse it could be because of external factors (Lowry leaves; Other teams get better; Guys injured this year are back next year, etc). But that doesn't mean MU's strategy back fires.. it just means he's ready to take the proper leap to get better in another year. At that time JV/Ross/DD would be in theory all be better. They could then be ready to take the league by storm.

    BC in my opinion was always thinking short term. The only time he probably didn't was when he drafted JV but then he immediately goes after Nash, Lowry, and then Gay. He blew his flexibility as soon as he created it (Hedo, then Fields, then Gay). He traded his draft picks for short term results. There was no real plan. I really hope MU doesn't mimic that 'strategy'.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The positives of this season have to be stated again.

    1) MU traded Bargnani and Gay and got smaller more manageable contracts with upside in one case and draft picks in another.
    2) DeMar became an all-star
    3) Ross and JV both grew as sophomores
    4) The Raptors still have enough money on the books to go after a max contract player in 2015.
    5) The Raptors still have their 2014 and 2015 draft picks

    With that said.. the win/loss record and any playoff success they have this year will probably not dictate how they respond next season. I can even see them taking a step back (eg, Lowry leaves) so they can take two steps forward the following year. I am always in favour of getting things done quickly but MU has 4 more years on his contract. If they stumble next season they still have pieces that can help them get to the next level. Miami may not always be as strong either (Wade is getting older, Bosh/James may both leave). Indiana is still a small-market team and they have 2 max-contracts and limited funds to get better. Toronto can jump into contender status but patience is probably needed.

    Keys to success will be what MU can do with trades this summer. Does he resign Lowry and at what price? Do DD/TR/JV all come back? What happens to Amir? Do they use their mid-level and on who? Who does he draft? I'm not sure but my gut believes that MU is going to make a bold move that will alter the team that we've seen this year. And that alteration could cause the team to do worse than they did this year. Not sure it will be a tank for 2015 but it could end up that way and I'm okay with that.

    The Raptors have a long way to go before they become legitimate contenders. Organic growth could get them there but I think TL is looking for star power and that is still lacking despite the fact that they have an all-star and a guy that should have been an all-star.
    I agree with most of your points. However one (bold) is where I disagree. I feel that playoff success (or lack of) will play a huge role:
    -If this team gets knocked out in first round, I 'd say a lot of changes are in order -from DD, Kyle, coach...
    -If, however we take Indiana or Miami in second round to 6 games(maybe even 5) -perhaps Casey is safe and some tweaking might be in order, depending on which weakness gets exposed the most. Kyle's performance & status in FA will play a huge role as well.
    WRT to player availability, I expect number of teams to be very concerned with payroll/tax (more or less most teams except for Lakers, Knicks & Brooklyn). IMO this will result in some all stars (or near all stars) being available. Can we find our "alpha dog" (something we clearly need now)?
    Attracting young all stars should be greatly enhanced with some playoff success. Having an owner willing to exceed max (and pay tax) also helps a lot.
    I'd say Raps future is bright.

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  16. #32
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    The primary goals before the season were:

    1/ Move Bargs
    2/ See if Gay and DD work well together, if not, move one
    3/ Develop Ross and Val

    I'd say the season is already a success. Playoffs is a bonus.
    The other bonus is that we developed two legit all-star quality players (Lowry & DD). Who saw that coming? Pretty good selling point for any players we might acquire by future trade or FA. Who says you can't be an all-star and get media recognition while playing in Toronto?

    Oh, and another bonus is that we acquired another young player in 2Pat, who looks like a quality piece with upside, moving forward.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star saints91's Avatar
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    For this season to be a success, it's making it to the second round or deeper. As mentioned by Masai the East is weak, simply making the playoffs isn't enough. This team needs to continue to develop, the most evident thing is consistency. Some nights are difficult to watch, and it's usually when they struggle to score against the bottom dwellers. Their 1st Quarter production needs to improve, even if it takes a shake up in the starting lineup.

    Ross needs the ball more in my opinion, when he gets going this team is hard to beat. It seems to me, when he is more involved at the beginning of games is when he ends up contributing the most. DeMar and Lowry seem to be players that can get it going at any point in the game, So Ross and JV should be the focus right off the top. The development of our sophomores is what makes this season a true success going forward.

    For offseason success, we need to get Lowry at a FAIR price (8-9 mil IMO), and hope he comes into the season as hungry. I think our big free agency focus should be 2015 when Fields, Hayes, Salmons (if the team option is picked up this offseason) Amir (if the team option is picked up this offseason), and the buyouts come off our books. Next season should be trying to establish core growth and a winning culture. I like what Masai has done so far.. this team has come a long way from the Bargs and Gay days. Flexibility seems to be the focus and I think he has done the best with what he had.
    Last edited by saints91; Sat Feb 22nd, 2014 at 09:18 PM.

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  19. #34
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    I think there are corporate goals that have been achieved this year
    • got rid of Bargnani and ended that endlessly dead-end story
    • tried the Rudy Gay experience (6-12) - and calmly ended that BC gambling story with a good trade
    • the record since the trade is 24-13 (.649) and is a short-term success that has started to change the Raptors' league-wide story
    • DeRozan's rise to all-star reduces the story that the Raptors team is a place that never develops talent
    • Even with Lowry gone, if Ujiri wants to be totally short-term and just plug-in a top-level PG, the supporting cast (all-star DD, JV, TR) would make this 2nd-tier destination (not having to pay extra)
    • killed the 5-years-without-playoffs albatross that killed BC
    • Playoffs!!! Revenues + excitement + Raptors focus
    • if the Raptors end up in 6th position, there's good chance of 2nd round appearance


    The longer term step of going from .600~.650 team to contender has not been addressed - that's going to have to touch the current core of DD, JV, TR, Amir the Hamir
    Last edited by GoingBig; Sun Feb 23rd, 2014 at 07:55 AM.

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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    I will judge the success of this season based on what happens with Kyle Lowry.

    If he leaves, we basically squandered a great opportunity to add a great young prospect in the draft to Val and Ross while also giving them much more minutes to develop.

    Each season is either a step towards winning a championship or a step away (and remaining in place is a step away given the opportunity cost).

    If Lowry walks, playoffs won't mean a thing because he was the biggest factor in getting us there. And all this "patience, Masai is evaluating" will be revealed as fatal indecisiveness.

    I trust the guy but man is he walking the razor's edge.

    I agree. The gamble has been played on Lowry, too late to back out. Masai basically has to sign Lowry in the offseason, and look to building by signing all-star FA's.

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  23. #36
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    I wouldn't blame Lowry for playing the market. However, he should be willing to take less to stay in Toronto, if we're building around him.

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    Quote GoingBig wrote: View Post
    I think there are corporate goals that have been achieved this year
    • got rid of Bargnani and ended that endlessly dead-end story
    • tried the Rudy Gay experience (6-12) - and calmly ended that BC gambling story with a good trade
    • the record since the trade is 24-13 (.649) and is a short-term success that has started to change the Raptors' league-wide story
    • DeRozan's rise to all-star reduces the story that the Raptors team is a place that never develops talent
    • Even with Lowry gone, if Ujiri wants to be totally short-term and just plug-in a top-level PG, the supporting cast (all-star DD, JV, TR) would make this 2nd-tier destination (not having to pay extra)
    • killed the 5-years-without-playoffs albatross that killed BC
    • Playoffs!!! Revenues + excitement + Raptors focus
    • if the Raptors end up in 6th position, there's good chance of 2nd round appearance


    The longer term step of going from .600~.650 team to contender has not been addressed - that's going to have to touch the current core of DD, JV, TR, Amir the Hamir
    All valid points. At the start of MU's year we had: A problem PG, a young-ish SG who still has potential, a black hole SF making way too much money, a good PF, and a high-potential C, no good backup PG, a backup young SG who was really dissapointing last year, no viable backup SF, a backup PF who was an albatrosss, and a backup PF who dissapointed in his last stop, with a clogged cap sheet that featured one bad contract and two horrendous ones- Fields, Bargs, Gay.

    This year we have: A PG who shed his attitude issues and was an all-star snub, a young all-star SG, a starting SF who turned it around from last year and has shown himself to be a viable 3-and-D guy, a good PF, a high-potential C, an above-average backup PG, no good backup SG, a good veteran backup SF, a backup PF who spreads the floor and has been a huge success, a backup PF whose toughness and grit have helped the team compete, an actual backup center, and a 3-point specialist at SF/PF. The cap sheet is much cleaner, with two bad contracts on the roster but no horrendous ones anymore, and more draft picks.

    This year has absolutely been a success. The real test is comparing this year and next year after next year's trade deadline.
    @Boymusic66

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  26. #38
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    This season is already a success. Pretty much every single fan on here assumed the Raptors would be between the 7-10 seed in the East this year, and most didn't even think Playoffs was possible. We all follow a shit ton of basketball, and none of us predicted the East would be this bad, so I don't see why we should hold that against the Raptors when they're the one team in the East exceeding expectations.
    We're playing .650 basketball since the trade and are 8-7 against the West since the trade. We're not a middling .500 team anymore, our record just doesn't quite show it thanks to the Rudy led team being bad.

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    Though the point that what follows in the coming years will define success this year or not, has some validity, that will more depend on what's done in those years. There should be no question that this season is a success, whatever happens in the playoffs.

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    Quote salmon wrote: View Post
    Though the point that what follows in the coming years will define success this year or not, has some validity, that will more depend on what's done in those years. There should be no question that this season is a success, whatever happens in the playoffs.
    But wouldn't success depend on its continuity and taking steps forward ? What is the goal here ? You can not take a championship in one season BUT you can take the right steps toward building a team that can do that.

    The problem with BC was that the continuity was never there. every season we had 8-9 new guys and new plans and ... But he still enjoyed the support of 90% of the fans here.

    This is why I think the goal for next season should be defined ...

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