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Thread: Article on the front page:Ujiriís Quiet Deadline All About The Future

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Ill make it easy:

    Player A: 27.6 MPG - 50.8% FG - 73.5% FT - 8.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.8 TO - 1.0 BPG - 3.2 PF - 10.5 PPG - 21 Yearsold

    Player B: 30.4 MPG - 45.7% FG - 75.4% FT - 7.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.9 TO - 2.5 BPG - 3.3 PF - 11.5 PPG - 27 Yearsold

    Which player do you think will turn out better?
    A = Val
    B = Hibbert
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Ill make it easy:

    Player A: 27.6 MPG - 50.8% FG - 73.5% FT - 8.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.8 TO - 1.0 BPG - 3.2 PF - 10.5 PPG - 21 Yearsold

    Player B: 30.4 MPG - 45.7% FG - 75.4% FT - 7.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.9 TO - 2.5 BPG - 3.3 PF - 11.5 PPG - 27 Yearsold

    Which player do you think will turn out better?
    A = Val
    B = Hibbert
    we know that hibbert's contribution isn't represented in the boxscore though.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    we know that hibbert's contribution isn't represented in the boxscore though.
    youre missing my main point. I only said that Val is likely to mature into a Hibbert-type player for us when I compared our talent level to the Pacers. The fact is, Val is younger than Hibberts rookie season and we really don't know HOW good he can get.

    Leading back to my main post, I think we have a core that, when they reach their prime, is capable of being in Indianas position, possibly even better (in my opinion).
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Val 2nd yr: ORtg-106, DRtg-103, WS/48-.118

    Roy 2nd yr: ORtg-105, DRtg-106, WS/48-.098

    Val is ahead of where Hibbert was by all 3 measures

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    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Ill make it easy:

    Player A: 27.6 MPG - 50.8% FG - 73.5% FT - 8.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.8 TO - 1.0 BPG - 3.2 PF - 10.5 PPG - 21 Yearsold

    Player B: 30.4 MPG - 45.7% FG - 75.4% FT - 7.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.9 TO - 2.5 BPG - 3.3 PF - 11.5 PPG - 27 Yearsold

    Which player do you think will turn out better?
    A = Val
    B = Hibbert
    from jonas' rookie year to sophomore hes had a pretty big drop in FG% of more than 5%, is getting to the line less, shooting FT's at a worse rate, less assists, less blocks, MORE turnovers and only .2 more points per 36 min despite getting 2 more shots a game than his rookie year.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote TSF wrote: View Post
    Jonas was also supposed to be more ready now than Hibbert was due to playing in the pros over in Europe.

    I'm not saying he's far behind, or that it's impossible. Just that as is stands, second season to second season, JV is behind
    I don't know how this misconception has been so persistent. He was not supposed to be more "ready", he was supposed to be more mature as a professional. He was always supposed to be raw as a player, as even physically he was not (and is not) finished maturing. It was more about mentality/character issues like approach, coachability, discipline, etc...And Jonas still excels in all those areas. He doesn't care about playing time, touches, being the star or franchise player, etc...he just cares about the wictories.

    This is not the norm in all young players. Actually from any part of the world. I think Jonas benefited greatly from never being a local 'star' type of player (even with all the hype he had the last few years in Lithuania). As soon as he turned pro even in Lithuania, he was essentially a role player, and didn't have trouble embracing that. Lots of kids fall into this trap on both sides of the ocean. And whatever the reason, be it they don't put in the work, or don't adopt the right approach, or refuse to accept teaching from their coach, etc...They just never become all they could be as NBA players.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    from jonas' rookie year to sophomore hes had a pretty big drop in FG% of more than 5%, is getting to the line less, shooting FT's at a worse rate, less assists, less blocks, MORE turnovers and only .2 more points per 36 min despite getting 2 more shots a game than his rookie year.
    I'd attribute this to 2 things.

    1) Jonas did a terrible job at improving his body and has become slower while not gaining much in terms of strength

    2) Casey is a terrible coach and doesn't use JV anymore in PnR's and has completely destroyed JV's effectiveness on the offensive end

  9. #28
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    we know that hibbert's contribution isn't represented in the boxscore though.
    Nor was it immediate, or even by his second year. Even as an anchor on D. He didn't really fully start to realize his potential until the last couple of years.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    I tend to agree with this analysis, except that one big name is missing from the list: Melo.

    I think at this point Melo isn't long for New York: the Knicks simply stink of failure and Melo is openly agonizing about the fact that he's dropping 40 points a night and the team just keeps losing. I think he can be signed away. I agree that Melo isn't a LeBron-like transformative talent - but he's a star-level player, pure and simple. And he's the only star-level player who isn't going to be tied to a franchise or almost certainly bound for another (like Love is for the Lakers).

    We have to consider the possibility that maybe, if we can get Lowry for a decent price, we should go after him. I'm not saying we necessarily should. But we have to consider it.
    I left Melo off because he turns 30 and is going to want to be paired with established stars, not a team as young as ours. The chances he comes here for his last major contract are slim to nil unless we can simultaneously snag a second star. Not to mention Melo and La La are more concerned about media exposure than the average NBA couple.

    Further, Melo under Casey would be an absolute catastrophe. Melo is as pure an iso player as they come, and an iso-star under iso-lover Casey would mean a return to the heyday of Rudy Gay. All the ball-sharing would come to a screeching halt.

    I see Melo going to an LA team or maybe getting convinced by Cuban to try his luck with Dirk.

  11. #30
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I'd attribute this to 2 things.

    1) Jonas did a terrible job at improving his body and has become slower while not gaining much in terms of strength

    2) Casey is a terrible coach and doesn't use JV anymore in PnR's and has completely destroyed JV's effectiveness on the offensive end
    I agree with the 2nd. The change in how they're using him has been horrible for his effectiveness. It's good they make the point of looking for him more in the post this year. He still needs some postup reps to help his development. But they have almost completely taken out the p'n'r from his usage, and that would seem to be the biggest on-court reason for his struggles.

    As for the first, I mostly agree. I wouldn't say he did a terrible job with his body, but that it clearly was poorly guided as he spent far too much time gaining weight (good and bad). And I wonder if part of that is that he is an eager worker, and overdid it trying to do something he was told he needed to improve (pretty sure Casey mentioned strength/size every time he spoke about JV at the end of last season). Hopefully if they emphasize quickness/conditioning for him this summer, he'll bust his ass trying to improve that.

  12. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    As for the first, I mostly agree. I wouldn't say he did a terrible job with his body, but that it clearly was poorly guided as he spent far too much time gaining weight (good and bad). And I wonder if part of that is that he is an eager worker, and overdid it trying to do something he was told he needed to improve (pretty sure Casey mentioned strength/size every time he spoke about JV at the end of last season). Hopefully if they emphasize quickness/conditioning for him this summer, he'll bust his ass trying to improve that.
    Ya everyone told him he needs to get bigger...and he did so, so I guess there is some fault that lies on the organization, hopefully things change with a MU having more control now.

    He needs to take the summer off from the Lithuanian national team to improve the quickness. I honestly think if he were quicker he would be a much better defensive presence, the one thing most critics of him are worried about going forward.

  13. #32
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Ya everyone told him he needs to get bigger...and he did so, so I guess there is some fault that lies on the organization, hopefully things change with a MU having more control now.

    He needs to take the summer off from the Lithuanian national team to improve the quickness. I honestly think if he were quicker he would be a much better defensive presence, the one thing most critics of him are worried about going forward.
    Don't think that's the difference-maker. Games are not going to destroy your ability to improve quickness. Game situations are the only definitive way to get a read on it. It's still the highest level of competition outside the NBA, with the fastest pace and best athletes. And practices for games are usually pretty intensive on the conditioning side.

    The only negative is the lack of rest that could come with it. I'm hoping that no summer league will help that, as that would've been around the perfect time to rest before going to join his national team. Needs to get the chance to refresh his body a bit. Also the FIBA Worlds are shorter, and end a week earlier than last year's Eurobasket, so schedule-wise it should be a bit better. He had basically no time between last year's tournament and training camp.

    I think most importantly is just the workout regimen and diet he has for the whole summer.

  14. #33
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    "Thatís why the Raptors were kicking the tires on acquiring Rajon Rondo last week. He seemed like a gettable player who qualifies as a transcendent talent. There have been points over the last four years when Rondo looked like he might have been the best point guard in the NBA. Not everyone will agree with that assessment (Rondo is an incredibly divisive player), but for a club looking to get into the transcendent talent game he represented a player worth pursuing"

    "Had they managed to acquire Rondo, the Raptors might have been able to start the process of making secondary moves to surround him with the right kind of complimentary talent"

    Wow. Kyle Lowry continues to not get any respect.

    Rondo = Good player. Big "name" player. But at this point in their career, Kyle Lowry is the BETTER player.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

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  16. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Ya everyone told him he needs to get bigger...and he did so, so I guess there is some fault that lies on the organization, hopefully things change with a MU having more control now.

    He needs to take the summer off from the Lithuanian national team to improve the quickness. I honestly think if he were quicker he would be a much better defensive presence, the one thing most critics of him are worried about going forward.
    Indeed, I don't care if he doesn't improve his post moves at all coming into next season. He simply has to get his body right first. The extra weight hurt his mobility and he needs to get that back, and also even more importantly his fitness/stamina needs to improve. He's often exhausted after only a few mins of game time. He really needs a good conditioning program and I'll be annoyed if he doesn't get it over the summer.
    Last edited by BigCamB; Tue Feb 25th, 2014 at 02:32 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter TSF's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    "That’s why the Raptors were kicking the tires on acquiring Rajon Rondo last week. He seemed like a gettable player who qualifies as a transcendent talent. There have been points over the last four years when Rondo looked like he might have been the best point guard in the NBA. Not everyone will agree with that assessment (Rondo is an incredibly divisive player), but for a club looking to get into the transcendent talent game he represented a player worth pursuing"

    "Had they managed to acquire Rondo, the Raptors might have been able to start the process of making secondary moves to surround him with the right kind of complimentary talent"

    Wow. Kyle Lowry continues to not get any respect.

    Rondo = Good player. Big "name" player. But at this point in their career, Kyle Lowry is the BETTER player.
    That's because Rondo is coming off injury. If he comes back to the player he was, then he's definitely the better player. The guy's averaged a double-double with a shade under 5 rebounds while being arguably the best defensive player at his position since the 2010 season... and he's on the second-best non-rookie superstar contract (Steph Curry being the first). Not to mention being a proven clutch performer averaging 14, 9 and 6 in the playoffs.
    @Boymusic66

  18. #36
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    "Thatís why the Raptors were kicking the tires on acquiring Rajon Rondo last week. He seemed like a gettable player who qualifies as a transcendent talent. There have been points over the last four years when Rondo looked like he might have been the best point guard in the NBA. Not everyone will agree with that assessment (Rondo is an incredibly divisive player), but for a club looking to get into the transcendent talent game he represented a player worth pursuing"

    "Had they managed to acquire Rondo, the Raptors might have been able to start the process of making secondary moves to surround him with the right kind of complimentary talent"

    Wow. Kyle Lowry continues to not get any respect.

    Rondo = Good player. Big "name" player. But at this point in their career, Kyle Lowry is the BETTER player.
    I think the interest in Rondo had just much to do with Lowry's contract uncertainty than anything else.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    Val 2nd yr: ORtg-106, DRtg-103, WS/48-.118

    Roy 2nd yr: ORtg-105, DRtg-106, WS/48-.098

    Val is ahead of where Hibbert was by all 3 measures
    These three ratings are heavily influenced by the team you play on.

    Hibbert played on a 32-50 Indiana team his 2nd year that had ORTG - 103, DRTG - 106.
    Val plays on a 31-25 Raptors team that has ORTG - 107, DRTG - 104

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Nor was it immediate, or even by his second year. Even as an anchor on D. He didn't really fully start to realize his potential until the last couple of years.
    Hibbert was on a path to become yet another run-of-the-mill journeyman backup big man. Then 2 things happened that dramatically changed that trajectory:

    1) Team doctors discovered a previously unknown asthma condition

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...122802792.html


    2) Pacers ditched Jim O'Brien and replaced him with Frank Vogel, who installed a defensive mindset and continued to tutor and develop Hibbert.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba...ndiana-pacers/

    Hibbert is most definitely a case study of an organization, culture and coaching being able to maximize (and far exceed) initially perceived talent level.

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  22. #39
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I agree with the 2nd. The change in how they're using him has been horrible for his effectiveness. It's good they make the point of looking for him more in the post this year. He still needs some postup reps to help his development. But they have almost completely taken out the p'n'r from his usage, and that would seem to be the biggest on-court reason for his struggles.
    Disagree that this is a bad thing. If we're entirely focused on winning, then, yes, it's bad.

    If we're focused on developing players, then we want them to spend game time working on developing skills that we want them to have in the long term. Do we want JV to become a post threat or become Amir 2.0?

    This is where lack of practice time affects developing NBA players.

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Don't think that's the difference-maker. Games are not going to destroy your ability to improve quickness. Game situations are the only definitive way to get a read on it. It's still the highest level of competition outside the NBA, with the fastest pace and best athletes. And practices for games are usually pretty intensive on the conditioning side.

    I think most importantly is just the workout regimen and diet he has for the whole summer.
    If his schedule involves heavy competition, then his practices aren't going to involve technical work and he won't be able to fully commit to conditioning, because you have to peak for your games.

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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    "Thatís why the Raptors were kicking the tires on acquiring Rajon Rondo last week. He seemed like a gettable player who qualifies as a transcendent talent. There have been points over the last four years when Rondo looked like he might have been the best point guard in the NBA. Not everyone will agree with that assessment (Rondo is an incredibly divisive player), but for a club looking to get into the transcendent talent game he represented a player worth pursuing"

    "Had they managed to acquire Rondo, the Raptors might have been able to start the process of making secondary moves to surround him with the right kind of complimentary talent"

    Wow. Kyle Lowry continues to not get any respect.

    Rondo = Good player. Big "name" player. But at this point in their career, Kyle Lowry is the BETTER player.
    Rondo is not transcendent, on offense. The man can't shoot. Even Obama called him out on that one, lol. I remember JVG calling a Celtics game and said that he felt Rondo should be relatively easy to defend... just back off him and make him a shooter.

    Yes, he's a nice defender, but a transcendent player needs to be able to create offense when the entire opposing team is keying on him; however, Rondo is bare above average usage (20%) with pathetic ORTG. Discounting this year, Rondo's ORTG is 101, 103 & 104. And here on RR we slam Derozan for ORTG of 108-109 @ 28% USG?

    Basically, Rondo has done squat since the Celtics big 3 started declining, beginning around 2010-11 season. Too flawed a player, and also a bit of head-case. Massively overrated, and calling him transcendent is a joke. It's funny how transcendent player, now seems to mean "a good player on a winning team that made it to finals multiple times", that we're now overlooking the player contribution himself. There's so much luck and opportunity involved in getting to the finals.


    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba-wp7524
    Last edited by golden; Tue Feb 25th, 2014 at 10:47 AM.

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