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Thread: What will happen if the Raptors trade for an elite talent?

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Transcendent Talent = Superstar = Elite Player = Franchise Player = Cornerstone = All-NBA

    Take your pick.
    How about superfantasticalplayerguy?

    I know what a transcendent player is its just funny how these names are ridden for a month or so before the next buzz word comes out. I'd like to speak with the guy that releases these buzz words I think mine has a real shot at being something

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    How about superfantasticalplayerguy?

    I know what a transcendent player is its just funny how these names are ridden for a month or so before the next buzz word comes out. I'd like to speak with the guy that releases these buzz words I think mine has a real shot at being something
    My post wasn't directed at you. Just a general jab at the ridiculousness of it all.

    For the record, I think superfantasticalplayerguy has some momentum.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    How about superfantasticalplayerguy?

    I know what a transcendent player is its just funny how these names are ridden for a month or so before the next buzz word comes out. I'd like to speak with the guy that releases these buzz words I think mine has a real shot at being something
    LOL. Good stuff. I like where you guys are going with this. I mean, you can almost envision a scenario where the Raptors actually DO end up getting Wiggins, and he doesn't deliver the championship and the fan-base turns on the home-town boy.

    Then, all these newly minted GM wannabe, championship franchise building experts are going to be saying... "oh, no... what we really meant was that you need a Generational Talent, like Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe or Garnett to get it done, and Wiggins is merely transcendent. We need Wiggins and that other guy."

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Niagara Raptor's Avatar
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    if we trade for an elite talent, that elite player will lose his legs in a tragic boating accident and we will cry bitter bitter tears

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    I love what Houston's done.

    Of course the circumstances are not repeatable, but the principles are there. Instead of buying high on an established star with half his prime (or more) behind him, they bought fairly low from a cheap ass team on a player on the brink of stardom. Nobody knew if Harden would become the player he has as a #1 guy, but the buying price was fine either way.

    As Matt said, Houston kept so many young assets because their pantry was full of young assets and solid contracts. They had no problem making space to sign Dwight, and they've even had enough of a surplus of talent and flexibility to have Asik fall off a cliff this season and to overpay Lin, yet still be gearing up for championship-contender status here in the second half of the season. 3/4 of their roster is 23-25 years old, too.

    That's all MU has to do - keep building, keep adding young talent, keep the picks and prospects, and "swing for the fences" (or whatever) when the right transaction is there. Don't do it just for the sake of doing it - a lot of GM's predetermine to acquire talent within a time-frame or offseason, and do it even if the price is too high. When you've got youth, a currently competitive team, and a team-friendly cap situation, you can be patient. Some GM out there is going to blink first and sell low, or a disgruntled player is going to start asking out of a crappy situation.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    I love what Houston's done.

    Of course the circumstances are not repeatable, but the principles are there. Instead of buying high on an established star with half his prime (or more) behind him, they bought fairly low from a cheap ass team on a player on the brink of stardom. Nobody knew if Harden would become the player he has as a #1 guy, but the buying price was fine either way.

    As Matt said, Houston kept so many young assets because their pantry was full of young assets and solid contracts. They had no problem making space to sign Dwight, and they've even had enough of a surplus of talent and flexibility to have Asik fall off a cliff this season and to overpay Lin, yet still be gearing up for championship-contender status here in the second half of the season. 3/4 of their roster is 23-25 years old, too.

    That's all MU has to do - keep building, keep adding young talent, keep the picks and prospects, and "swing for the fences" (or whatever) when the right transaction is there. Don't do it just for the sake of doing it - a lot of GM's predetermine to acquire talent within a time-frame or offseason, and do it even if the price is too high. When you've got youth, a currently competitive team, and a team-friendly cap situation, you can be patient. Some GM out there is going to blink first and sell low, or a disgruntled player is going to start asking out of a crappy situation.
    Boom. If we don't do that, I'm happy with MU

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    I love what Houston's done.

    Of course the circumstances are not repeatable, but the principles are there. Instead of buying high on an established star with half his prime (or more) behind him, they bought fairly low from a cheap ass team on a player on the brink of stardom. Nobody knew if Harden would become the player he has as a #1 guy, but the buying price was fine either way.

    As Matt said, Houston kept so many young assets because their pantry was full of young assets and solid contracts. They had no problem making space to sign Dwight, and they've even had enough of a surplus of talent and flexibility to have Asik fall off a cliff this season and to overpay Lin, yet still be gearing up for championship-contender status here in the second half of the season. 3/4 of their roster is 23-25 years old, too.

    That's all MU has to do - keep building, keep adding young talent, keep the picks and prospects, and "swing for the fences" (or whatever) when the right transaction is there. Don't do it just for the sake of doing it - a lot of GM's predetermine to acquire talent within a time-frame or offseason, and do it even if the price is too high. When you've got youth, a currently competitive team, and a team-friendly cap situation, you can be patient. Some GM out there is going to blink first and sell low, or a disgruntled player is going to start asking out of a crappy situation.
    Great post. And Houston did all of that without having to lower themselves or subject their fan-base to the indignity of a tanking strategy. Morey creatively acquired other team's picks via trade, including ours, which was one of the keys to the Harden deal.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Great post. And Houston did all of that without having to lower themselves or subject their fan-base to the indignity of a tanking strategy. Morey creatively acquired other team's picks via trade, including ours, which was one of the keys to the Harden deal.
    That's the beauty of MU's 5 year deal. TL gave him the reigns for 5 years, no pressure to build something in 2 that would require drastic moves.

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Great post. And Houston did all of that without having to lower themselves or subject their fan-base to the indignity of a tanking strategy. Morey creatively acquired other team's picks via trade, including ours, which was one of the keys to the Harden deal.
    I am actually curious to know what was Houston's record in past 5-6 years ... How many time they made the play offs ? What kind of picks did they have and ...

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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    I am actually curious to know what was Houston's record in past 5-6 years ... How many time they made the play offs ? What kind of picks did they have and ...
    07: 1st round loss to Utah
    08: 1st round loss to Utah
    09: second round loss to LAL
    10: 42-40, 9th in Wet
    11: 43-39, 9th in West
    12: 34-32, 9th in West
    12: 45-37, 8th in West

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    I am actually curious to know what was Houston's record in past 5-6 years ... How many time they made the play offs ? What kind of picks did they have and ...
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/

    ANswers are found above in link.

    But in a nutshell they were .500 or better from 2010, 2011, and 2012 but missed playoffs in tough west.

    They drafted at 14, 14, and 12 but they had other picks.
    Houston draft history: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...HOU/draft.html


    Too bad he likes making deals so much. He had Mirotic and sent him to Chicago for a later pick, a 2nd round pick, and cash. Mirotic with Houston's current lineup would be sick.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I think it will be a lot harder these days to get three picks in a lottery if you are a .500 team. Most teams struggle to give up first rounders, and when they do they add protections.

    Not too many Colangelo's in the system anymore.

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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    07: 1st round loss to Utah
    08: 1st round loss to Utah
    09: second round loss to LAL
    10: 42-40, 9th in Wet
    11: 43-39, 9th in West
    12: 34-32, 9th in West
    12: 45-37, 8th in West
    In other words, Houston was classic treadmill .... repeat, treadmill team, who acquired valuable assets via trades, FA & mid-lower picks which were flipped for elite player - all without tanking. That's transcendent GM'ing.

    Having said that, I'm not 100% sold on Dwight-Harden as a championship core.
    Last edited by golden; Wed Feb 26th, 2014 at 07:53 PM.

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    In other words, Houston was classic treadmill .... repeat, treadmill team, who acquired valuable assets via trades, FA & mid-lower picks which were flipped for elite player - all without tanking. That's transcendent GM'ing.

    Having said that, I'm not 100% sold on Dwight-Harden as a championship core.
    Look at their young assets that surround Harden/Howard though:

    They are all young guys who play within a system and who play for each other. You can't discredit the passion or heart in such a team, the same one which gave OKC a scare in the first round last year. This year they are bound to have a solid postseason (I have no idea what will happen in the West since all of the top 8 teams are strong), and they can continue to build around a core of Harden, Howard, Parsons, Beverely, and co.

    I love the Rockets/Pacers/Spurs analogy to the Raptor's situation because like those teams, we are seeing a young core of selfless individuals winning games right now. This season we have the potential to play in the second round of the playoffs, and if Masaii handles this situation correctly, we can continue to grow and eventually be on a higher level 5 years from now; the same one the Spurs, Pacers, and Rockets are on today, and that is a championship contender level.

    Great post btw Matt, I agree with you fully.
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    Quote YoungGunRaptor wrote: View Post

    I love the Rockets/Pacers/Spurs analogy to the Raptor's situation because like those teams, we are seeing a young core of selfless individuals winning games right now.
    You can't really have Spurs in there because they have relied on Tim D. for so long and they got their Big man via tanking.

    Pacers is a different story. They are run by one of the greatest Basketball mind of past 3 decades. Getting PG that late in draft and getting guys like Stevenson in 2nd round and ... That takes real talent.

    Does MU have such a talent ? Looking at Denver I don't know if the answer is yes or no.

    Rockets is a very interesting case for sure. How they were able to compete but at the same time, move some of their talents and get assets ( picks and ...) it is simply amazing.

    We will see what MU will do with Novak, Vas.2Pat and other contracts that he has in hand this summer.

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    Without making a move up in the 2014 draft I believe the Raptors will be a middling team for the next 4 years. If the goal is to win a championship they should trade a player (I don't care who) and their 2014 first round pick to get Wiggins. With three first round pick in 2015 and 2016, they could contend by 2018.

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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    You can't really have Spurs in there because they have relied on Tim D. for so long and they got their Big man via tanking.

    Pacers is a different story. They are run by one of the greatest Basketball mind of past 3 decades. Getting PG that late in draft and getting guys like Stevenson in 2nd round and ... That takes real talent.

    Does MU have such a talent ? Looking at Denver I don't know if the answer is yes or no.

    Rockets is a very interesting case for sure. How they were able to compete but at the same time, move some of their talents and get assets ( picks and ...) it is simply amazing.

    We will see what MU will do with Novak, Vas.2Pat and other contracts that he has in hand this summer.
    Spurs are the most unique tanking story ever. Their best player got a season-long injury, they smartly used the opportunity to suck and get a high draft pick to pair with the Admiral.

    As for MU- Faried at 22nd was a great pick (how amazingly deep does that draft look now btw? Irving, Thompson, JV, Knight, Walker, Thompson, Morris twins, Leonard, Vucevic, Shump, Harris, Mirotic, Butler, Singler, Parsons, Isiah Thomas) and Fournier was a meh pick at 20 whose giving decent production in limited minutes this year. Quincy Miller hasn't done much, but even 4.6 and 2.7 in 12 minutes isn't bad for a second round pick. So he's got one great pick and two average ones.

    Oh and I completely didn't notice he signed Julyan Stone in denver too
    @Boymusic66

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    That's all MU has to do - keep building, keep adding young talent, keep the picks and prospects, and "swing for the fences" (or whatever) when the right transaction is there.
    I certainly agree with this sentiment. I'm just saying I think it's easier said than done. One thing that's lost in this evaluation of Houston is that Texas is one of seven states with no income taxes and is pretty warm, which I can assure you factored into Dwight's decision. We face an uphill battle in this regard.

    That said, the Jays were able to lure free agents north of the border, so it's not an impossible task.

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    Got to make sure the pieces fit if you do, Rudy Gay was considered an elite talent when the Raptors got him and it didn`t work out in the end.

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    “The best value in the NBA, in the new [collective bargaining agreement], is a really good player on a rookie-scale contract,” McDonough said. “When we won the championship in Boston in 2008, we had Rajon [Rondo] on his rookie-scale contract. We had Glen Davis, who played a big role for us. Leon Powe played a good-sized role for us. Kendrick Perkins had re-signed and had a good number, so that was important.”

    The Phoenix equivalent of those players are Dragic, Markieff Morris, Marcus Morris, EricBledsoe, Miles Plumlee, and ex-Celtic Gerald Green. McDonough made the astute hire of former Suns and Jazz standout Jeff Hornacek as coach, although the two had never met before the interview process. Hornacek has made the most of his first NBA head coaching job, galvanizing a bunch of youngsters and journeymen.

    “The players are like sponges,” Hornacek said. “They continually ask questions. For coaches, it’s great for us, they are trying to learn, they are trying to do the things we ask. There are a couple of times where they’ll make suggestions. If it’s a good idea, we’ll say, ‘Yeah, let’s go ahead and do that.’ They’re great guys to coach and that obviously helps trying to get some wins.”

    The next step is attracting a superstar to Phoenix. Like the Celtics historically, the Suns have had trouble signing major free agents despite Phoenix being a popular residence for professional athletes. McDonough will have an opportunity to change that with salary cap space to offer a maximum contract.

    “I hope not very difficult at all. That’s what I’ve heard in terms of talking to people who have worked here in the past,” said McDonough, referring to attracting free agent interest. “They say whichever free agent you call, they’re going to listen and seriously consider it. I think we have a lot of advantages with the weather and the fact it’s a great place to live, and the golf courses. There’s a lot to do here during the NBA season.

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...MvL/story.html
    The bold sections are along my thoughts with this thread. A good player on a rookie deal is an incredible value and you retain Bird Rights. You don't want to give up all those guys to land a star. Unrestricted free agency is the way to land a star without losing any assets - other than cap space. When you are trying to do that every city has challenges, even Phoenix with their weather. I think for Toronto it is going to come down to who is in charge and the sales job they do. However if a strong roster is not already in place without potential to get better organically or otherwise, fergettaboutit.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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