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Thread: What will happen if the Raptors trade for an elite talent?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Agreed. In my opinion none of our assets save Val should be untouchable. Our 2014 draft pick is currently 20th, which going by MU's history would equate to a Faried/Fournier level player. If we pick up an impact player our 2015 pick might be worth even less. If we're not tanking these picks are of considerably lower than normal value.

    That said, I would be hesitant to squander them on a guy who has say a year left on his contract, because we don't have the luxury of tossing seven+ years of player control for one.

    So basically it depends on the situation. Sorry it's not a more satisfying answer.
    No one is untouchable... Jv and ross are almost but not quite.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star mike, prague's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I would add to your discussion, but I already 100% unequivocally agree. We have amazing chemistry at this point, and you don't disrupt that for a quasi-star. If lowry leaves, you reevaluate all that, but as of right now, we're not as far back as most would believe. We've kept pace with miami since gay left basically, and yes I know they're still much better, but they're not light years better, which is saying something.

    My point being, I trust this scouting department we have in place. Four firsts in the next 3 years, hopefully two can pan out and turn into great players. Internal growth, adding great complimentary pieces could turn us into the next indiana/portland. That's where I want to be, because lebron james and chris paul aint coming to canada.
    Never say never with TL at the head of the helm

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    In my opinion, you pull the trigger when you are not left with a skeleton roster and it is for a player who is not able to bolt after one year...

    100%. You pull the trigger when you have a solid core, some young assets and you are in position to go over the cap to acquire an impact player signed to a long term deal.

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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    ...Toronto ain't Miami (warm and no state taxes). Bringing in a star is not in the cards (we're similar to OKC, San Antonio and Indiana - except with a large market, strong ownership but with CAD $, super cold and minimal US TV exposure).
    Raps got lots of US TV exposure when Vince was playing in TO and the Raps were winning.

  6. #45
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Raps got lots of US TV exposure when Vince was playing in TO and the Raps were winning.
    Lots is a stretch. We got some US TV exposure - if i remember maybe 3 or 4 national games (as opposed to zero right now)

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Lots is a stretch. We got some US TV exposure - if i remember maybe 3 or 4 national games (as opposed to zero right now)
    Playoff games are usually all national televised, so the 2nd round series vs Philly would have meant we had double digit national games that spring.

  8. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    100%. You pull the trigger when you have a solid core, some young assets and you are in position to go over the cap to acquire an impact player signed to a long term deal.
    Our core is pretty solid and you can wave goodbye to it because to get an elite level player you'll need to trade some of that core. Not realistic to expect to get an All NBA type player AND keep a top notch cast around them at every position.

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    Raptors Republic Starter TSF's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Our core is pretty solid and you can wave goodbye to it because to get an elite level player you'll need to trade some of that core. Not realistic to expect to get an All NBA type player AND keep a top notch cast around them at every position.
    If you can move Amir/2Pat, Ross/Demar, and a 1st rounder (Not too far off from the Harden trade, maybe throw in Vasquez and the Knicks 1st) then you still have an exceptional cast around the star. Our core realistically could afford to lose one of our PF's and one of our SG's and still be fine in a trade
    @Boymusic66

  10. #49
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    It really depends on the 'elite' talent that you are trying to go for. Elite to someone is meh to someone else. BC thought Gay was elite for example and look how that roster turned out.

    Rondo has been thrown around but there are serious question marks there. There is so much risk but if Kyle is not coming back then Rondo would be a smart acquisition especially since the Raptors may not be in the position to draft a good PG at their spot. If Kyle wants to come back then you arguably have a cheaper PG that knows this team and the system and can do as much as Rondo could in his best years. Negotiating with Ainge is also not something that will be fun. Meaning you would have to give up at least 3 good assets to get him. Ainge will not be taking back contracts like Fields/Hayes or Novak.

    Love has been mentioned. For Minny if you look at their roster I'm sure they would want to keep trying. How many years has it been since they saw playoffs? If you think a 5 year drought in Toronto was bad, look at Minnesota. And they are a small market team. So Minny probably wants guys that have been in the league for awhile. Probably looking at least at Amir+DD+future pick for Love.. How do people feel about giving up DD for KL? KL has a player option so this could be very similar to MU's deal with Orlando/Philly to get Iggy in return for Afflalo and their 2014 pick (which will be in the lottery).

    If Love walks then the team could take a giant step back and may not have a pick to show for it. Really risky.

    TL wants a name.. I would personally see what it would take to get Wiggins. Not this year but next year. Have some team draft him and then try to get him when his market value is a bit lower. Kind of like with Barnes and GSW. Wasn't the rumour Barnes for Amir?

    Just hope that Wiggins has a bad rookie year and is being coached/developed by a terrible team (a team like Cleveland or Milwaukee).

    They also have the cap space in 2015 to get a guy like Love without giving up an asset. Yes Love might go to LA but he may also want to win. LA is in no position to win and they are hamstrung by giving Kobe that extension. Being an Eastern conference team with an LA guy as one of its leaders might be enough for Kevin to really think about it. And I'm sure he's used to the cold by now so that shouldn't be an issue.

  11. #50
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    It's tough to find an elite level talent. It may come down to trying to move up the draft to snag a top pick, but there is no telling how a player will turn out and there is a lot of development time involved as well. I think TL and MU want established talent with an eye to being contenders by the time the All Star game comes to Toronto. It's TL's crowning acheivement and I don't think he wants to be the embarassment of the league like the Knicks will be when the world focuses on them for next years All Star game.

  12. #51
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I guess my point in all this comes down to the idea of asset accumulation combined with the CBA/luxury tax and rich ownership angle.

    Asset accumulation, in my opinion, is about getting Bird Rights.

    Bird Rights, for those who don't know, allow you to go over the salary cap to keep your own players.

    So rookie contracts and guys who have been on a contract for last 4 seasons or who are on a 4 year contract have a lot of value.

    However if you give up all your assets (i.e. players who you can extend when their contract is up) to get your 'star' player then you're screwed. It is tough to obtain impact players outside of minimum contracts and exceptions. Your star then gets frustrated (like KG in Minnesota) and as the years (usually around 6-8 years based on recent history) they force their way out or leave when UFA.
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  13. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star Scraptor's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I guess my point in all this comes down to the idea of asset accumulation combined with the CBA/luxury tax and rich ownership angle.

    Asset accumulation, in my opinion, is about getting Bird Rights.

    Bird Rights, for those who don't know, allow you to go over the salary cap to keep your own players.

    So rookie contracts and guys who have been on a contract for last 4 seasons or who are on a 4 year contract have a lot of value.

    However if you give up all your assets (i.e. players who you can extend when their contract is up) to get your 'star' player then you're screwed. It is tough to obtain impact players outside of minimum contracts and exceptions. Your star then gets frustrated (like KG in Minnesota) and as the years (usually around 6-8 years based on recent history) they force their way out or leave when UFA.
    But that's the Catch-22 Matt. If we are drafting 20th or lower how do we acquire transcendent talent?

    Realistically there is almost always going to be a more attractive market than ours for a transcendent star who is an unrestricted free agent. The benefit of acquiring one via trade is if you can either:

    a) extend him like Harden in Houston
    b) use his presence to increase winning and parlay that into other acquisitions

    We can talk all we want about patience and flexibility but there is a danger in being too thrifty in that you never actually acquire the high-ceiling asset.

    And that's what it ultimately comes down to. Smart drafting and savvy trades are an unassailable strategy, but SA got Duncan in the draft and has yet to win a title without him as the key element. Indy acquired Paul George at 10 and is unlikely to draft there again.

    I agree with your sentiment in principle but I suspect the realities of acquiring star level talent are far more tortuous than our pie-eyed idealism.

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  15. #53
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I guess my point in all this comes down to the idea of asset accumulation combined with the CBA/luxury tax and rich ownership angle.

    Asset accumulation, in my opinion, is about getting Bird Rights.

    Bird Rights, for those who don't know, allow you to go over the salary cap to keep your own players.

    So rookie contracts and guys who have been on a contract for last 4 seasons or who are on a 4 year contract have a lot of value.

    However if you give up all your assets (i.e. players who you can extend when their contract is up) to get your 'star' player then you're screwed. It is tough to obtain impact players outside of minimum contracts and exceptions. Your star then gets frustrated (like KG in Minnesota) and as the years (usually around 6-8 years based on recent history) they force their way out or leave when UFA.

  16. #54
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Transcendent talents haha. So funny how people love tagging on to word of the month.

    If you build it they will come...

    So fcking build it! People are looking at this management team through the same lens as the previous regime. Nothing is the same anymore. The goals, perspectives and ideas of this management/ownership team are different. It'll take time maybe a couple more moves but eventually I think fans will realize that were in completely different hands.

    If we can't draft a superstar we will attract one. Toronto is a great city it has everything a superstar wants now it's about building a team as great as the city.

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  18. #55
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Transcendent Talent = Superstar = Elite Player = Franchise Player = Cornerstone = All-NBA

    Take your pick.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  20. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    Transcendent talents haha. So funny how people love tagging on to word of the month.

    If you build it they will come...

    So fcking build it! People are looking at this management team through the same lens as the previous regime. Nothing is the same anymore. The goals, perspectives and ideas of this management/ownership team are different. It'll take time maybe a couple more moves but eventually I think fans will realize that were in completely different hands.

    If we can't draft a superstar we will attract one. Toronto is a great city it has everything a superstar wants now it's about building a team as great as the city.
    I hate those tag words. They symbolize almost everything that's wrong with our world. It's easy to throw a bunch of nuanced ideas into a pot and label them all a catchy word.

    Left wing, right wing, race, etc. Labeling these ideas removes any room for nuance and analysis.

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  22. #57
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    But that's the Catch-22 Matt. If we are drafting 20th or lower how do we acquire transcendent talent?

    Realistically there is almost always going to be a more attractive market than ours for a transcendent star who is an unrestricted free agent. The benefit of acquiring one via trade is if you can either:

    a) extend him like Harden in Houston
    b) use his presence to increase winning and parlay that into other acquisitions

    We can talk all we want about patience and flexibility but there is a danger in being too thrifty in that you never actually acquire the high-ceiling asset.

    And that's what it ultimately comes down to. Smart drafting and savvy trades are an unassailable strategy, but SA got Duncan in the draft and has yet to win a title without him as the key element. Indy acquired Paul George at 10 and is unlikely to draft there again.

    I agree with your sentiment in principle but I suspect the realities of acquiring star level talent are far more tortuous than our pie-eyed idealism.
    The issue here is not how to acquire it, it is when and how.

    Three ways to get players: free agency, draft, and trade.
    Free agency and draft do not require losing any assets.
    Trade does.

    My point is if you swing for the fences now you are left with bare cupboards and a skeleton roster with few assets. Looking at Houston with Harden, as an example, that wasn't the case. They had 4 guys left after the trade on their rookie contracts as well as 4/5 of a starting lineup, rotational players, they had a slew of 2nd round picks plus their own 1st round picks from 2014 onwards, and they had lots of cap space which they used to sign Howard the next summer.
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  23. #58
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I guess my point in all this comes down to the idea of asset accumulation combined with the CBA/luxury tax and rich ownership angle.

    Asset accumulation, in my opinion, is about getting Bird Rights.

    Bird Rights, for those who don't know, allow you to go over the salary cap to keep your own players.

    So rookie contracts and guys who have been on a contract for last 4 seasons or who are on a 4 year contract have a lot of value.

    However if you give up all your assets (i.e. players who you can extend when their contract is up) to get your 'star' player then you're screwed. It is tough to obtain impact players outside of minimum contracts and exceptions. Your star then gets frustrated (like KG in Minnesota) and as the years (usually around 6-8 years based on recent history) they force their way out or leave when UFA.
    The other catch-22 with this approach, is that eventually, you're going to have to pay all these players (assuming they're acquired while on rookie or good value deals).

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Three ways to get players: free agency, draft, and trade.
    Free agency and draft do not require losing any assets.
    Trade does.
    It's looking more likely that the draft is not an option and free agency has never been very successful for Toronto (here's to hoping that TL can work his magic). Therefore, trading is the likeliest route, by default.

    The Raps currently have many good assets (players and picks) to work with. If MU waits too long to cash-in his assets, he'll have to start re-signing them (ie: Patterson, Vasquez, Hansborough and de Colo this offseason). When that happens, there are two issue: first, they probably have less trade value after re-signing because they aren't considered to be such values; second, it stands to leave the team with far less cap space to further build the team post-trade.

    I think MU is in a great position to pursue a blockbuster deal this offseason, whether it's at or after the draft:

    - JV & Ross are still on rookie deals and full of potential
    - DeRozan is an all-star on a decent deal
    - Amir still has a full season under contract
    - contract options for Salmons & Hansborough are at peak value
    - Hayes & Fields will be expiring contracts next season
    - S&T options for Lowry, Patterson, Vasquez, de Colo
    - their own 2014 1st round pick
    - an early 2014 2nd round pick (almost a 1st rounder without the guaranteed money)
    - a late 2014 2nd round pick
    - all their 2015 picks
    - an extra 1st round pick in 2016

    Given the makeup of the team, all the draft picks over the next 3 drafts and all the salary set to expire over the next 2 offseasons, I'm not the least bit worried that a blockbuster trade to acquire a legit superstar player might gut this team. I think this offseason, next season or the following offseason is the ideal window to significantly retool this team. The fact that such an approach happens to coincide with TL coming on board, a franchise rebranding and hosting an all-star game can't be just a lucky coincidence...

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Our core is pretty solid and you can wave goodbye to it because to get an elite level player you'll need to trade some of that core. Not realistic to expect to get an All NBA type player AND keep a top notch cast around them at every position.
    Therein lies the problem.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The other catch-22 with this approach, is that eventually, you're going to have to pay all these players (assuming they're acquired while on rookie or good value deals).



    It's looking more likely that the draft is not an option and free agency has never been very successful for Toronto (here's to hoping that TL can work his magic). Therefore, trading is the likeliest route, by default.

    The Raps currently have many good assets (players and picks) to work with. If MU waits too long to cash-in his assets, he'll have to start re-signing them (ie: Patterson, Vasquez, Hansborough and de Colo this offseason). When that happens, there are two issue: first, they probably have less trade value after re-signing because they aren't considered to be such values; second, it stands to leave the team with far less cap space to further build the team post-trade.

    I think MU is in a great position to pursue a blockbuster deal this offseason, whether it's at or after the draft:

    - JV & Ross are still on rookie deals and full of potential
    - DeRozan is an all-star on a decent deal
    - Amir still has a full season under contract
    - contract options for Salmons & Hansborough are at peak value
    - Hayes & Fields will be expiring contracts next season
    - S&T options for Lowry, Patterson, Vasquez, de Colo
    - their own 2014 1st round pick
    - an early 2014 2nd round pick (almost a 1st rounder without the guaranteed money)
    - a late 2014 2nd round pick
    - all their 2015 picks
    - an extra 1st round pick in 2016

    Given the makeup of the team, all the draft picks over the next 3 drafts and all the salary set to expire over the next 2 offseasons, I'm not the least bit worried that a blockbuster trade to acquire a legit superstar player might gut this team. I think this offseason, next season or the following offseason is the ideal window to significantly retool this team. The fact that such an approach happens to coincide with TL coming on board, a franchise rebranding and hosting an all-star game can't be just a lucky coincidence...
    Bold 1: That is my whole point. Rich ownership having desire for content with players on Bird Rights should never result in a James Harden situation for Toronto.

    Bold 2: Next year or year after I'm in agreement. Not this off season though. Patience.
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