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Thread: What will happen if the Raptors trade for an elite talent?

  1. #101
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I have wondered about this...agents take like 30% in some cases (for doing nothing).

    Why do pro athletes have agents who take percentage? NBA GM's will offer what they believe is fair value, and as a player you do know your worth. You don't need an agent to negotiate for you IMO.

    For example if your agent is making 30% and he says he can get you a 10 mil deal, that means you are making 7. Why not just fire him and say to the GM you'll take 8.5? You make more...your team has more cap space. If you don't want to get screwed legally, hire a lawyer for a flat hourly commission for a thousandth of the cost...

    I hate agents...leaches and dredges of society (not unlike used car salesman)

    I guess they do take care of some of the business side of things....but you can do that as a player as well, it is not that hard and would massively increase communication between player and front office in a good way. just my 2 cents...
    If agents weren't worth 30% or whatever it is that they charge they wouldn't be paid it. To say agents are slimy and do nothing is a pretty ignorant comment.

  2. #102
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    If agents weren't worth 30% or whatever it is that they charge they wouldn't be paid it. To say agents are slimy and do nothing is a pretty ignorant comment.
    Corrected already

    I still think they are completely useless and slimy. More often than not agents over value the players they represent in order to get more money for themselves and do not actually represent what is in the best interest of the player. That's pretty slimy imo

  3. #103
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Corrected already

    I still think they are completely useless and slimy. More often than not agents over value the players they represent in order to get more money for themselves and do not actually represent what is in the best interest of the player. That's pretty slimy imo
    So by getting MORE money for the players than they're worth, thereby making more money for themselves makes them slimy? I thought that getting better than market value for your player would be considered a good thing. If you ask the player I'm sure he or she would agree. In fact an agent that can get more than market value for the players they represent might even make them good agents, and I bet once they had that kind of respect they could probably charge more for their services. I bet some players would even see it as a worthwhile investment. For those that don't they can go elsewhere.

  4. #104
    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    Chicago is also showing how competitive a well balanced team can be without superstars (Noah's defensive presence aside). It'll be interesting to see how they move forward re: Rose.
    This exact sentiment surfaced last season, and when the playoffs hit, so did reality. Same goes for last year's Nuggets... same probably goes for us this year. The regular season is a mirage for star-less teams, imo. '04 Pistons are the single exception of the last 30+ years.

    Houston's ability to play moneyball was mostly brilliant GMing, but location did have something to do with it. Easier to assemble capfriendly contracts when you're in the heat and there's no taxes. But I do agree the landscape is changing capwise... I just wonder how quickly the efficiencies will be stamped out by similar strategies. Look at how cleverly Atlanta and Philly and Utah have cleared the decks.

    We can't just be super-savvy and opportunistic.... we have to be savvier and more opportunistic than our competitors.

    Another thing to think about is how bifurcated the league has become. There are competing teams and there are tanking teams and there are very few teams trapped in the middle. Those teams in the middle are where the opportunities lie, with a Detroit or with a Minnesota, where a star may be frustrated and fed up with the situation. Unfortunately the opportunities always seem scarcer than the number of teams chasing them.

  5. #105
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Proof were building something special. De Yolo preferred coming to Toronto over staying with the SPURS!!!!

    http://www.prosportsdaily.com/Headli...ticleId=293039

    Yes I'm being facetious. But he did request a trade from the Spurs.

  6. #106
    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    Proof were building something special. De Yolo preferred coming to Toronto over staying with the SPURS!!!!

    http://www.prosportsdaily.com/Headli...ticleId=293039

    Yes I'm being facetious. But he did request a trade from the Spurs.
    I don't see how getting traded to Toronto is a better situation for him. He hasn't gotten any minutes and I can't envision a situation where he would. In San Antonio, with the aging core they have and the injuries they are dealing with, there must have been way more opportunities to get some minutes there. Not to mention, in San Antonio, you're playing under one of the greatest coaches to ever do it.

    Interesting.

  7. #107
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote Red and White wrote: View Post
    I don't see how getting traded to Toronto is a better situation for him. He hasn't gotten any minutes and I can't envision a situation where he would. In San Antonio, with the aging core they have and the injuries they are dealing with, there must have been way more opportunities to get some minutes there. Not to mention, in San Antonio, you're playing under one of the greatest coaches to ever do it.

    Interesting.
    Agreed. Maybe pop hurt his feelings at some point?

  8. #108
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    One more thought on Houston - before the Harden trade, I remember reading a couple articles criticizing Morey because they seemed to be lacking direction. As mentioned, they were a barely above .500 "treadmill" team at the time, and he just kept accumulating similar mid-tier talent. Traditional logic would have been to tank at that point.

    I do think the league is shifting and we'll see more of the Houston approach. Because of the cap, those team-friendly contracts are so much more valuable now. Even if your team is middling in the W/L department, but you're in a solid financial situation, you're may actually be better off than teams with a couple of all-stars but a crappy cap situation. It's really hard to get out of a bad cap situation without having to sell low on current talent.

    Chicago is also showing how competitive a well balanced team can be without superstars (Noah's defensive presence aside). It'll be interesting to see how they move forward re: Rose.
    They kind of did. They blew it all up, signed Lin to put butts into seats and were bracing for a potentially bad year. But they kept trying and a couple days before the end of the trading camp, they got Harden.

    In general, Morey has said multiple times that he wanted to blow it up and rebuild through draft after Yao retired. The owner wouldn't let him.

    I think that tanking is naturally very attractive to a Morey type that sees everything through "assets and cap management" lenses. High lottery picks are great assets, and rookie stars are the best contracts in the league. Even Morey's former right hand man is driving a tank right now in Philly.

    Not every team / GM has an opportunity to tank, though. So you do what you can.

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  10. #109
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    This exact sentiment surfaced last season, and when the playoffs hit, so did reality. Same goes for last year's Nuggets... same probably goes for us this year. The regular season is a mirage for star-less teams, imo. '04 Pistons are the single exception of the last 30+ years.
    Denver was also a below average road team. Their record was inflated by playing at a high pace and being more fit than their opponents.

    I think it's more teams that don't play defense can't succeed in the post season, not teams that don't have a superstar.

  11. #110
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    This exact sentiment surfaced last season, and when the playoffs hit, so did reality. Same goes for last year's Nuggets... same probably goes for us this year. The regular season is a mirage for star-less teams, imo. '04 Pistons are the single exception of the last 30+ years.
    Hrm- the problem with the Nuggets reference was that they were also one and done year after year with 'Melo, a top-tier superstar at the time.

    I agree with your post, though. I think Houston and the Nuggets show how to be a "middling" team with the potential to move up by having lots of good, young players on team-friendly contracts. More teams are going to realize they can move forward from that point and that rebuilding isn't as linear as bottoming out and trying to draft a franchise talent, imho. At least I hope so. As you mentioned the crazy lack of parity in the NBA is partly due, I think, to the weight put on rebuilding through the draft. Teams are happy to be bad, because they can sell hope.

  12. #111
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Corrected already

    I still think they are completely useless and slimy. More often than not agents over value the players they represent in order to get more money for themselves and do not actually represent what is in the best interest of the player. That's pretty slimy imo
    sorry but pretty vague and general comment that can almost be applied to any job.

  13. #112
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    sorry but pretty vague and general comment that can almost be applied to any job.
    I'd put it this way: agents CAN be slimy.

    The level of trust put into an agent probably also provides them with the power to be slimy.

    But any good friend/family member could screw you over too.

    The agents that do completely screw over their clients likely don't find very many future clients.

    At the very least, agents are properly incentivized to have the player's best outcome as their personal concern.
    Last edited by stooley; Tue Mar 4th, 2014 at 12:34 PM.

  14. #113
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I'd put it this way: agents CAN be slimy.

    The level of trust put into an agent probably also provides them with the power to be slimy.

    But any good friend/family member could screw you over too.

    The agents that do completely screw over their clients likely don't find very many future clients.

    At the very least, agents are properly incentivized to have the player's best outcome as their personal concern.
    Yeah, that's a pretty broad view of the stereotypical sports agent in the first comment there (Jerry MacGuire?). They're business people, just like anyone else. Sure there's a natural distaste for anyone who doesn't seem to be "really working" and manages to make millions of dollars piggy-backing on the talents of others - I get that. But I honestly can't comment on the character of a single sports agent - I don't know any. We know what they media tells us about the highest profile agents, but I was just reminded of how crappy the media is last week - one of the largest local papers wrote a profile about my industry in my region, and honestly 75% of the info in there ranged from unintentionally misrepresented to outright incorrect (poor source information). I wouldn't trust the media to tell me what player agents are or aren't like.

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  16. #114
    Raptors Republic All-Star charlesnba23's Avatar
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    23 ppg, 4.5 rpg and 4 apg is not far from elite imo... And the man keeps improving.

  17. #115
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    If we trade for elite talent, then we'll be elite ... I think it's as simple as that. We have good players but I wouldn't say we have elite talent right now; DeMar is making a case but I wouldn't categorize him as elite right now.

    I may see some shots fired but I think CHRIS BOSH would make this team 'elite'. Just think about how underrated he's become since coming to Miami. He still posts good numbers (rebounding isn't great though) on monster efficiency & has stretched out his game past the 3 point line (shooting 37% this season).

    Miami is +10 points per 100 possessions with Bosh on the court & along with LeBron, Bosh is anchoring that Miami defense. He has the length & quickness to bother the pick and roll and he has good timing on rotations.

    All I'm saying is, if you put him in our 4 spot -- giving us a line-up of Lowry, Ross, DeRozan, Bosh & Valanciunas, we have ourselves a really good chance at contention in the East.

    So my question is, how the hell can we bring him home?

    I'm aware he has an ETO, so he can potentially be a free agent. I don't think we have max cap space [or] maybe we do ... I just want to know what's a realistic way of getting him here.

    20th anniversary ... bring Vince & CB4 home!
    Last edited by torch19; Tue Mar 4th, 2014 at 05:32 PM.
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  18. #116
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    If we trade for elite talent, then we'll be elite ... I think it's as simple as that. We have good players but I wouldn't say we have elite talent right now; DeMar is making a case but I wouldn't categorize him as elite right now.

    I may see some shots fired but I think CHRIS BOSH would make this team 'elite'. Just think about how underrated he's become since coming to Miami. He still posts good numbers (rebounding isn't great though) on monster efficiency & has stretched out his game past the 3 point line (shooting 37% this season).

    Miami is +10 points per 100 possessions with Bosh on the court & along with LeBron, Bosh is anchoring that Miami defense. He has the length & quickness to bother the pick and roll and he has good timing on rotations.

    All I'm saying is, if you put him in our 4 spot -- giving us a line-up of Lowry, Ross, DeRozan, Bosh & Valanciunas, we have ourselves a really good chance at contention in the East.

    So my question is, how the hell can we bring him home?

    I'm aware he has an ETO, so he can potentially be a free agent. I don't think we have max cap space [or] maybe we do ... I just want to know what's a realistic way of getting him here.

    20th anniversary ... bring Vince & CB4 home!
    Not quite.

    What do you give up?

    Prospects: JV? Ross?
    Financial flexibility?
    Solid role players: Amir? Hansbrough?
    Proven talent? Lowry? DeRozan?
    Future draft picks?

    I don't think the Raptors are in a position to trade for elite talent right now. Another year? Maybe. Two? Should be a definite.


    Now if the Raptors can draft one or sign an UFA, then yes, welcome to elitism Raptor fans.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #117
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Not quite.

    What do you give up?

    Prospects: JV? Ross?
    Financial flexibility?
    Solid role players: Amir? Hansbrough?
    Proven talent? Lowry? DeRozan?
    Future draft picks?

    I don't think the Raptors are in a position to trade for elite talent right now. Another year? Maybe. Two? Should be a definite.


    Now if the Raptors can draft one or sign an UFA, then yes, welcome to elitism Raptor fans.
    Say Bosh opts out of his contract in Miami because he's looking for a longer deal. Say LeBron decides to take his talents somewhere [or] Miami signs another free agent leaving Bosh out; whatever it is ... Bosh becomes an UFA.

    My question is ... where do we stand on signing a max or near max contract like Bosh this off season?

    What options do we have? Straight up, it won't work. Sign & trade? If that's the case, what are the necessary moves to make that avenue possible & what kind of a deal are we talking about in a sign & trade?

    Sorry, I'm not too familiar with the CBA when it comes to intricate details.

    ** I'm not opposed to waiting until the 2015 summer to make moves either, btw .. just curious about this off season
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  20. #118
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    Say Bosh opts out of his contract in Miami because he's looking for a longer deal. Say LeBron decides to take his talents somewhere [or] Miami signs another free agent leaving Bosh out; whatever it is ... Bosh becomes an UFA.

    My question is ... where do we stand on signing a max or near max contract like Bosh this off season?

    What options do we have? Straight up, it won't work. Sign & trade? If that's the case, what are the necessary moves to make that avenue possible & what kind of a deal are we talking about in a sign & trade?

    Sorry, I'm not too familiar with the CBA when it comes to intricate details.

    ** I'm not opposed to waiting until the 2015 summer to make moves either, btw .. just curious about this off season
    The biggest deterrent to signing a big time guy this summer is the Raptors don't have cap space.. and the real reason behind that is because of Landry Fields and Chuck Hayes. Those contracts are cumbersome and won't expire until after next year. So to take on a legit talent (like Bosh) you have to give up assets in a trade that equals Bosh's value (so approx $16-$17M in salary).. and Miami would want to do that deal as well. For example, I don't see a Bosh for Fields/Hayes/Salmons type of trade because Miami will just say no thanks even if Bosh wants to come to Toronto.

    So as Matt said who would you give up from the core to get an 'elite' talent? And most teams would want our best young assets especially if they are rebuilding themselves. So say buh-bye to JV, Ross, DD or one of our picks. And the elite talent can become a free agent themselves after playing in Toronto for one year (like Rondo, Love, Bosh, etc) and that becomes really risky.

    In 2015 we will have more money to go after a free agent. If we can do that without giving up an asset than watch out.

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  22. #119
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I have wondered about this...agents take like 30% in some cases (for doing nothing)...
    "An agent’s commission varies, based on the sport he represents. Generally, a sports agent earns between 4 and 10 percent of an athlete’s playing contract, though some leagues place limits on what percentage an agent can charge in commission. For example, the National Football League states that an agent can't receive more than 3 percent of player salaries. The National Basketball Association places the limit at 3 percent too. Major League Baseball and the National Hockey League don't have any limits on agent commissions, however."

    For what it's worth.

    http://work.chron.com/average-sports...ion-21083.html
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 10:24 AM.

  23. #120
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Not quite.

    What do you give up?

    Prospects: JV? Ross?
    Financial flexibility?
    Solid role players: Amir? Hansbrough?
    Proven talent? Lowry? DeRozan?
    Future draft picks?
    If Bosh wanted to sign, I would give up picks to create space.

    But I doubt that's a possibility.

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