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Thread: Kyle Lowry is Not a "Shoot-first" "Scoring" Point Guard

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Default Kyle Lowry is Not a "Shoot-first" "Scoring" Point Guard

    I'm tired of this narrative of Lowry as a scoring point guard, often made with a reference to *sigh* Vasquez or *sigh* Calderon and their *sigh* "true" *sigh* "pass-first" *sigh* playing style (insert flash back to "good old days" when point guards seemed so much more intent on passing the basketball).

    Kyle Lowry is 7th in the league in apg and 6th in total assists. He's 34th in PPG. Why do we still love to tag him as "shoot first"? He's even 8th in AP48, ahead of Vasquez (11th) and Jose (28th) whom some Raps fans like to hold up as pass-first playmaking PG models.

    At his position Lowry's #1 for RPG, #7 for SPG, #7 for APG, and #8 for PPG. He's led the league in charges taken for most of the season. Basically he does EVERYTHING. Labelling him a scoring point guard and pining for "playmakers" does Kyle Lowry a massive disservice. He's easily the most well-rounded basketball player this team has, and he passes the ball better than many "pass-first" PG's.

    Kyle Lowry is a very good, very competitive, very tough basketball player (in every sense of the term). I think he does too many other things well to be labelled as "pass-first." I'll bet if he were worse at scoring, rebounding, and defense, but continued with his top-10 assist rate, we'd all call him a "pass-first" point guard.

    I don't really care what he's labelled, but let's quit knocking his playmaking ability.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    He's just a player, a damn good one at that.

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    Lowry is a baller, well rounded and clutch in big moments which is HUGE!

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    As evidenced last night, Lowry doesn't need to be scoring well in order to contribute to winning basketball games.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I'm not labeling Lowry a scoring point guard, but I consider him to be one. This season tells a different story and I've made the comment before that he's one of very few NBA players thats adjusted from being a scoring pg to a passing pg to what I now consider to be a great blend of both. But at the end of the day he's having his best season ever and to define him by this one season is like defining Bargnani by that one good season he had in Toronto prior to injury (all whopping 20 games I beleive it was).

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I wouldn't worry too much about labels.

    Lowry's having a phenomenal year, and I'm not saying he isn't a pass-first but pointing to his ranking in assists isn't going to help. For years guys like Marbury and Iverson were ranked high in assists but were both widely considered some of the most selfish players alive.

    Lowry doesn't have nearly the number of shots that the above two have, so I wouldn't call him a scoring guard either, but I remain concerned that he is a guard that shoots 13 times per game while shooting just 42%.

    Take a look at this:
    http://bkref.com/tiny/FMauJ

    Most of these guys other than Jason Kidd were shoot-first guards and they all averaged as many or more assists than Lowry.

    Criteria used were:
    apg >= 7.6
    fga >= 12.8
    mpg >= 36
    fg% <= 42.5%
    sorted by PER
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't worry too much about labels.

    Lowry's having a phenomenal year, and I'm not saying he isn't a pass-first but pointing to his ranking in assists isn't going to help. For years guys like Marbury and Iverson were ranked high in assists but were both widely considered some of the most selfish players alive.

    Lowry doesn't have nearly the number of shots that the above two have, so I wouldn't call him a scoring guard either, but I remain concerned that he is a guard that shoots 13 times per game while shooting just 42%.

    Take a look at this:
    http://bkref.com/tiny/FMauJ

    Most of these guys other than Jason Kidd were shoot-first guards and they all averaged as many or more assists than Lowry.

    Criteria used were:
    apg >= 7.6
    fga >= 12.8
    mpg >= 36
    fg% <= 42.5%
    sorted by PER
    yeah, assists aren't the best bet to decide pass first/shoot first. i also feel like the best bet for assists are on drive and kicks, where the player was actually originally looking for a shot.

    "pass first" guys are generally guys who run plays, distribute the ball and just command the offense from a distance, like a general, instead of getting in the thick of things.

    I don't really care if Lowry is or isn't one of those guys, he's a great player.

    Only thing I'd like to see is for him to work on his pick and roll skills.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    that 0/8 from deep last night was worrisome but he kept playing his game, theres a difference between chucking and taking open shots in the flow of your offense and Lowry was taking the usual 3s last night they just werent dropping.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    All shooters have nights like that, it's nothing worrisome. He rightly backed himself as a 40% shooter.

    The comparison in the OP to Jose is off the money though. Jose is a pass first PG, he's just playing a completely different role for Dallas this season with Ellis running a lot of the offense with Dirk whilst Jose is used as a spot up shooter.

    Kyle just does a bit of everything out there. Couldn't really label him either pass first or score first.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    yeah, assists aren't the best bet to decide pass first/shoot first. i also feel like the best bet for assists are on drive and kicks, where the player was actually originally looking for a shot.

    "pass first" guys are generally guys who run plays, distribute the ball and just command the offense from a distance, like a general, instead of getting in the thick of things.

    I don't really care if Lowry is or isn't one of those guys, he's a great player.

    Only thing I'd like to see is for him to work on his pick and roll skills.
    Well said.

    Scoring PGs uses the threat of scoring (drive) to open up plays for their teammates. While traditional play-makers, look to use screens, movement, etc and then pass to set up a teammate in a scoring position.

    Derrick Rose is a prime example of the scoring PG, while a guy like Rajon Rondo is the traditional.

    I think the majority of PG's in the NBA today are more in the "scoring" mold, but it isn't the same "scoring" mold that we saw with a player like Mike James, who looked to score, score and then score some more before passing. Modern PG's use the threat of scoring to pressure the defence, which then opens spots for his teammates.

    Don't think there is anything wrong with the label, as it applies to most modern PGs. (Steph Curry, John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Russell Westbrook, Rose, Damian Lillard, Tony Parker, Eric Bledsoe, Kemba Walker, etc)

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    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    , but I remain concerned that he is a guard that shoots 13 times per game while shooting just 42%.
    42% sounds worse than it is, because he takes so many 3's. Here is another chart of qualified PG's with a 30%+ assist rate sorted by eFG%.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...der_by=efg_pct

    Two more reasons I like his shot selection. Three pointers have a greater chance for offensive rebounds and because he takes few corner 3's, he can get back on defence more quickly when he misses.

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    Lowry has the "shoot first" reputation because of his past. While we admire the phenomenal year he's having, we forget to pay attention to the reason for it. Demar is known to be this "hard working" player and that's very true but it's time we attach that label to one more player who is if not as hard working, is almost as hard working and that's Kyle Lowry. It's obvious he's put in a lot of time and work to better his game and the results are obvious. His leadership quality.is a bonus.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie gametime's Avatar
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    Give me Kyle's hybrid game any day, where he can drive into the trenches and kick it out, or dictate from the perimeter in traditional mode. He's got heart. Could care less about labels.

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    Kyles been my favorite raptor since he got here and I'm glad he's finally getting his due. By the end of the year he'll be known as a top 10 pg, hands down. Expect the all star game next year too as the league now understands he's not on a "flukey hot stretch". On a related note, haven't seen that poster wiggins around her much lately lol

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Niagara Raptor's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Kyles been my favorite raptor since he got here and I'm glad he's finally getting his due. By the end of the year he'll be known as a top 10 pg, hands down. Expect the all star game next year too as the league now understands he's not on a "flukey hot stretch". On a related note, haven't seen that poster wiggins around her much lately lol
    and you wont unless wiggins pulls a steve francis move to get here ... we can pick him up in 5 years though

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Skip2MyLou's Avatar
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    Lowry is labeled as STUDLY

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote Niagara Raptor wrote: View Post
    and you wont unless wiggins pulls a steve francis move to get here ... we can pick him up in 5 years though
    I meant wiggins the message board poster, obvious troll and staunch lowry hater.

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    How about a point guard that can make big plays when needed on both sides of the floor, and create opportunities for other guys to score. KL can create his own shot and because he is a scoring threat other guys get open. Ill take that over Jose's game anyday. Jose was good when he was here but he didnt have that extra gear that can turn around a game or close it out in the 4th.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie GoldenBaller's Avatar
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    He's all around.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    I'm tired of this narrative of Lowry as a scoring point guard
    He used to be.

    He had an epiphany this year

    Now he is just a good fucking point guard. Period.

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