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Thread: The Tanking Problem

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    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote e_wheazhy_ wrote: View Post
    The whole point of the draft is that the worst teams get the chance to pick the better players, it evens out the talent pool and makes the league more competitive. If we start giving away good players to well managed teams (who are good and already have good players)... Well I'm sure I don't have to spell it out for you (your nickname tells me you're a pretty smart guy)

    If that was the case, lets just give the heat all the first overall picks for the next 10 years, their management pulled off an impressive feat
    Your Miami argument is ridiculous. Last I checked Miami was not going to miss the playoffs.
    You seem to have missed the entire point of this discussion, which is how to best eliminate tanking.

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    Raptors Republic Starter e_wheazhy_'s Avatar
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    Default The Tanking Problem

    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    Your Miami argument is ridiculous. Last I checked Miami was not going to miss the playoffs.
    You seem to have missed the entire point of this discussion, which is how to best eliminate tanking.
    It wasn't an argument per se, I was just trying to illustrate that the point of the draft lottery is not to reward good management (which seemed to be your point back there) but to even out the competitive balance of the league. The worst teams need the best players, so they get them.

    Saying "well that team wanted to win so they deserve it" well no shit, every team wants to win! Even bottom-feeding Philadelphia wants to win. Why are they tanking in the first place? Because they hate winning? Nope.
    Because they hate their fans? Perhaps, but not quite.
    Because they think that accumulating assets and high draft picks will eventually lead to winning? Bingo!

    You will never fully eliminate tanking (which I'm taking a liberty here and taking to mean "exploiting loopholes in the system") because to some, that IS good management. Let's say you're a GM and your predecessor was some smooth talking guy, let's call him Ryan Colangelo, for argument's sake, you get a heap of bad contracts and players who don't play well/ are past their prime as your first GM assignment and your owner says, make us start winning in 3-5 years. Not everyone is a super whiz kid like Masai who is able to make trades that make both teams better now and in the future. So you settle for the strategy of asset accumulation. Selling your prime assets for future assets, and while this causes a considerable ammount of losing NOW, lo and behold in 3-5 years you're Oklahoma City!

    What's the best way to cure tanking? Who knows? But is it bad management? Are these tanking GMs against winning? No.
    Last edited by e_wheazhy_; Mon Mar 3rd, 2014 at 04:38 PM.
    A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote TSF wrote: View Post
    Doing some reading of old Grantland material due to boredom, and came across this puppy, which could solve the tanking problem once and for all.

    http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=5496

    Grantland's Sean Mcindoe explaining it:

    "Here’s how it works: The top draft positions will be awarded based on points earned after playoff elimination. Once a team is officially out of the playoff race, it starts the clock on amassing points toward its draft position. Bad teams still get an advantage (because they’re eliminated earlier), but now the emphasis is on winning, not just on riding out the string. It’s relatively simple, and it’s brilliant.

    You’re telling me you wouldn’t be excited the day the “no. 1 overall pick points” column appeared in the standings? If we were lucky, we could even have late-season showdowns for the top picks. And fans watching those games would actually be cheering for their own teams to win. Imagine that."
    Actually, it's not brilliant. One reason is that not every team plays the same schedule. Nor can they ever play the same schedule in the same order. The mere random chance of when you play teams (and who you play) matters too much.

    Also, the system can be gamed. Sit out your players with "injuries" early and the play them later in the year. It might also have the perverse effect of encouraging a team to try to lose more, faster just to get the clock started earlier.

    The best idea I have seen is the "wheel". Every 30 years you get the #1 pick. Every 5 years you'd get a top 6 pick and a top 12 pick every four years. There would be absolutely no way to game the system and absolutely no incentive to ever try and tank.

    At first I thought "the wheel" was stupid but I actually love the idea now.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote e_wheazhy_ wrote: View Post
    It wasn't an argument per se, I was just trying to illustrate that the point of the draft lottery is not to reward good management (which seemed to be your point back there) but to even out the competitive balance of the league. The worst teams need the best players, so they get them.

    Saying "well that team wanted to win so they deserve it" well no shit, every team wants to win! Even bottom-feeding Philadelphia wants to win. Why are they tanking in the first place? Because they hate winning? Nope.
    Because they hate their fans? Perhaps, but not quite.
    Because they think that accumulating assets and high draft picks will eventually lead to winning? Bingo!

    You will never fully eliminate tanking (which I'm taking a liberty here and taking to mean "exploiting loopholes in the system") because to some, that IS good management. Let's say you're a GM and your predecessor was some smooth talking guy, let's call him Ryan Colangelo, for argument's sake, you get a heap of bad contracts and players who don't play well/ are past their prime as your first GM assignment and your owner says, make us start winning in 3-5 years. Not everyone is a super whiz kid like Masai who is able to make trades that make both teams better now and in the future. So you settle for the strategy of asset accumulation. Selling your prime assets for future assets, and while this causes a considerable ammount of losing NOW, lo and behold in 3-5 years you're Oklahoma City!

    What's the best way to cure tanking? Who knows? But is it bad management? Are these tanking GMs against winning? No.
    Let me preface my rebuttal with the following:

    I also have no problem with tanking. Good, necessary tanking is good management. That is what the league has now, and I am more than OK with leaving the draft as it is now. The point of this thread, once again, is how best to prevent tanking if the league decides to do so.

    You are incorrect about the draft lottery. Its point is NOT to even out the competitive balance of the league. The lottery is there to do what the whole point of this thread was about. That is, to make tanking a bit less of a sure fire reward. The draft itself, with teams picking in reverse order of success is what attempts to even out competitive balance.

    My original point was, if the league truly wanted to stop tanking, while still trying to maintain competitive balance to some extent, teams that failed to make the playoffs should have an equal opportunity for the 1st few picks at least. The winners in this system would be teams that actually tried, but failed, to make the playoffs. The wheel would just make the rich richer. Large market desirable location teams already have a huge advantage as it is. Rich winners having the same chances at cheap elite talent as the Bucks just seems wrong to me.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    On mike and mike I heard one of the mikes say the picks should start from the team closest to making the playoffs but didn't make it in and have the draft order work down from there. Thoughts?

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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    On mike and mike I heard one of the mikes say the picks should start from the team closest to making the playoffs but didn't make it in and have the draft order work down from there. Thoughts?
    I suspect it would result in ridiculous situations of teams tanking out of the playoffs. Sure, some owners will want the playoffs and the money it brings. Other owners will see an Anthony Davis, Embiid or Wiggins and decide that getting no.8 seed and getting beat by the Thunder isn't all that attractive.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    I suspect it would result in ridiculous situations of teams tanking out of the playoffs. Sure, some owners will want the playoffs and the money it brings. Other owners will see an Anthony Davis, Embiid or Wiggins and decide that getting no.8 seed and getting beat by the Thunder isn't all that attractive.
    Should be even odds for every team not in the playoffs. No one would miss the playoffs for this.

    And, if you wanted to throw some winning incentive back in: even odds for every team not in the playoffs BUT the winningest non-playoff team picks no lower than fifth.
    Last edited by JimiCliff; Mon Mar 3rd, 2014 at 10:00 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote e_wheazhy_ wrote: View Post
    The whole point of the draft is that the worst teams get the chance to pick the better players, it evens out the talent pool and makes the league more competitive. If we start giving away good players to well managed teams (who are good and already have good players)... Well I'm sure I don't have to spell it out for you (your nickname tells me you're a pretty smart guy)

    If that was the case, lets just give the heat all the first overall picks for the next 10 years, their management pulled off an impressive feat
    If we start doing this, then maybe, just mayyyyyyybe, all teams will realize that bad management is simply not an option.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Here's another Grantland article about tanking, not sure if was linked anywhere on the site so I added it here. Written by Simmons and I was entertained. It's more of a rant about how tanking is a problem in the NBA and I tend to agree with most of what he says:

    http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nb...ng-perfection/

  10. #30
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    I would be fine with getting rid of the draft altogether (the Senate, too). Hard cap with a cap minimum and minimum player salary.

    Another solution would be to give all 32 teams one lottery ball. That would help the odds of the Raptors getting a better pick this year, for instance.

    Still another approach would be to arrange the draft order in a 32 year cycle in which each team gets the top pick once. Not my idea but it could work if a team picked in a four year rotation, something from the top 8, followed by bottom 8, then from 9-16, and then a 17-24 pick. It just has to be organized so that teams don't have consecutive picks at the top or bottom.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    After that embarrassing loss that the Lakers suffered last night, as well as what Philly is up to, I gotta say that this whole tanking thing is making the league look particularly pathetic. I'm glad the Raps aren't involved in what is looking to be just an outright embarrassing season for the league. No wonder they are pushing Durant vs. Lebron so much in the MVP race. Exciting as that is, are they marketing it so much so as to take away attention from the disgusting ball that's being played by the bottom feeder teams? The league has got to do something to address this issue.

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    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    After that embarrassing loss that the Lakers suffered last night, as well as what Philly is up to, I gotta say that this whole tanking thing is making the league look particularly pathetic. I'm glad the Raps aren't involved in what is looking to be just an outright embarrassing season for the league. No wonder they are pushing Durant vs. Lebron so much in the MVP race. Exciting as that is, are they marketing it so much so as to take away attention from the disgusting ball that's being played by the bottom feeder teams? The league has got to do something to address this issue.
    Yeah, that was pathetic last night. One problem with your outrage though. You're making the same mistake a lot of other people do and equate playing really shitty basketball with tanking. Philly is an out and out tank - and a pretty damn good one at that. But the Lakers did not tank, just as the Bucks in the East did not tank. Both of those teams are the results of bad luck combined with bad management decisions. Not much the league can or should do about that.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    Yeah, that was pathetic last night. One problem with your outrage though. You're making the same mistake a lot of other people do and equate playing really shitty basketball with tanking. Philly is an out and out tank - and a pretty damn good one at that. But the Lakers did not tank, just as the Bucks in the East did not tank. Both of those teams are the results of bad luck combined with bad management decisions. Not much the league can or should do about that.
    Yeah that's probably true, although I do think both of those teams have been in the tank parade for some time now, yet it probably wasn't their intention at the start of the season. Good point though. you know, I don't mind building through the draft, all teams have to do it at some point and it is usually a cyclical event. But there still is a huge problem in the league from a competitive standpoint. Maybe only half the league is decent this year, with some clear frontrunners in both conferences. I really just want to see a more competitive league, and maybe tanking isn't the only problem. I'll tell you something else I don't like, draft protections. GSW tanked to keep their pick (barnes) a few years ago, and now it's possible that the Pelicans will do the same (well, Simmons thinks so). Screw that I say. If a team trades a pick then it's gone, and there should be no situation in which they can retain it. I just wish there was no reward to trying to lose, and I don't care if it's set up by management or executed on the court by the players and coaches. Maybe there are just too many teams and not enough talent going around.

    In any event, it's probably not as bad as I thought this season, and thanks for pointing that out!

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Honestly, the only way I see to solve tanking is to average records from the past three years for lottery teams.

    If someone can point out some issues with that, I'm all ears.

    Every other system either just shifts the tanking issue to a different place in the standings, or doesn't help achieve parity.

    All of a sudden the intentional "rebuild" doesn't seem so enticing to owners because you lose out on long term revenue. It's easy to sell a fanbase on one year of bad basketball, but three? Say goodbye to season ticket holders.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Another article on the tanking problem, or, more accurately, a counter argument to the tanking problem. It suggests that the "problem" isn't really a problem at all, and that tanking this season is no more prevalent than in most seasons, which is what some have suggested in this thread. Maybe it isn't as bad as I, and others, have thought, and the article agrees with some of the thoughts posted in this thread:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...or-an-epidemic

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    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    Another article on the tanking problem, or, more accurately, a counter argument to the tanking problem. It suggests that the "problem" isn't really a problem at all, and that tanking this season is no more prevalent than in most seasons, which is what some have suggested in this thread. Maybe it isn't as bad as I, and others, have thought, and the article agrees with some of the thoughts posted in this thread:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...or-an-epidemic
    I've never been a fan of BleacherReport, but this article has more common sense than any I've read regarding this years "tanking problem". Too many people confuse tanking with desperate/poor management, legit rebuilding and bad luck.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    I've never been a fan of BleacherReport, but this article has more common sense than any I've read regarding this years "tanking problem". Too many people confuse tanking with desperate/poor management, legit rebuilding and bad luck.
    I'm not a big fan of the site either. I have only recently been visiting it regularly. The thing I hate the most about it though, is the abundance of "slide-show" type articles, that really annoys me.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Not a bad article at all. I generally avoid Bleacher Report too, but I have also been wondering this year if they've been trying to somewhat up the quality. They haven't been great, but there have been fewer dreadfully bad articles. Maybe they're improving their writing staff? I swear before they just had random articles by fans writing from their college dorm rooms.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Not a bad article at all. I generally avoid Bleacher Report too, but I have also been wondering this year if they've been trying to somewhat up the quality. They haven't been great, but there have been fewer dreadfully bad articles. Maybe they're improving their writing staff? I swear before they just had random articles by fans writing from their college dorm rooms.
    I noticed that too. They definitely are writing better article this year.

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    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Just checked on this Howard Beck. Covered bball for the New York Times, and his hiring was highly praised including very positive comments from guys like Zach Lowe to John Hollinger. Just discovered Turner Broadcasting previously purchased the site and are moving away from the kindergarten slideshow crap.

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