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Thread: Do we run too many screens?

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    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    Default Do we run too many screens?

    Wanted to open this up for discussion. According to this piece:

    http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/0...ikes-the-suns/

    (which I also posted to the Demar thread) we run the second-most screens per 100 possessions in the league. We're good at it, as we're 10th in PTS/P&R possession. But I wonder if there are downsides, such as injury risk, fatigue, or predictability of offense.

    Thoughts?


    *Note that Dallas is first overall in screens. Guess Casey brought that with him from his time under Carlisle.
    **Stan Van Gundy made some excellent points about advanced stats here, so take this data for what it's worth, but I will leave that for a separate discussion.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    If it aint broke!

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    its the high number of screens that actually creates the dynamic element in our offense. In a set offense you essentially have the play you run followed by the options in order as the offense is designed. Teams can quickly latch on and shut down for example a flex cut or Princeton offense. In a P n R and screen heavy offense you create a scenario where a team has to react to four potential options simultaneously.

    1.) The big man has to decide if you can shoot. If yes then has to hedge hard
    2.) If he hedges the PG has the option to find the role man, drive, split the screen, hit the hot pocket, take the big man out to the 3 line and drive, drive and dish, and watch for the back cut.

    No other offense allows for so many options at the same time, where as every other offense has options in sequence. If A fails, go to B, if B fails go to C if C fails reset... if the reset fails drive or shoot the 3

    editor's note: my post grossly simplifies the intricacies of offensive systems and was intended in to illustrate why screen heavy offenses are so effective.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, I love a good pick and roll, and fun plays like elevator doors, I just wonder if we're going to end up putting too much wear and tear on our bigs. Perhaps this has something to do with how run-down Amir and Val have looked of late?

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    Utah didn't have a problem with it. To some extent, the Spurs didn't either.

    In regards to health concerns, if Casey subs accordingly we should be ok.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    I always thought you could never run enough Pick and Rolls Lol.

    Just jumps out to me in those stats how good Dragic is now, incredible player.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    its the high number of screens that actually creates the dynamic element in our offense. In a set offense you essentially have the play you run followed by the options in order as the offense is designed. Teams can quickly latch on and shut down for example a flex cut or Princeton offense. In a P n R and screen heavy offense you create a scenario where a team has to react to four potential options simultaneously.

    1.) The big man has to decide if you can shoot. If yes then has to hedge hard
    2.) If he hedges the PG has the option to find the role man, drive, split the screen, hit the hot pocket, take the big man out to the 3 line and drive, drive and dish, and watch for the back cut.

    No other offense allows for so many options at the same time, where as every other offense has options in sequence. If A fails, go to B, if B fails go to C if C fails reset... if the reset fails drive or shoot the 3

    editor's note: my post grossly simplifies the intricacies of offensive systems and was intended in to illustrate why screen heavy offenses are so effective.
    it really is this simple. at the end of the day the whole point is to cause predictable reactions

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    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    but i do want to see more post ups, basketball is not a video game let these guys get some rest every now and then.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I love a good pick and roll, and fun plays like elevator doors, I just wonder if we're going to end up putting too much wear and tear on our bigs. Perhaps this has something to do with how run-down Amir and Val have looked of late?
    Pick and roll shouldn't be too taxing. Consider the alternative for a big is to post up. The physical exertion in getting and maintain post position (without even extending to the point of getting the ball) would be higher than that of a pick and roll.

    Conversely, pick and roll defence is probably the most taxing on a big physically (while post D is easier as you can use your mass to work for you), so there is the added benefit of forcing the other team's bigs to maintain a high level of exertion of an extended period of time.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I love a good pick and roll, and fun plays like elevator doors, I just wonder if we're going to end up putting too much wear and tear on our bigs. Perhaps this has something to do with how run-down Amir and Val have looked of late?
    I can believe it with Amir. No plays are ever called for him.. his job on the offensive end is to essentially run around and set pindowns, and screens for high PnR's.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    I can believe it with Amir. No plays are ever called for him.. his job on the offensive end is to essentially run around and set pindowns, and screens for high PnR's.
    Don't think there are many plays that could be run for Amir, he isn't that type of scorer. The team just needs to feed the roller more often. Increased ball movement and weakside cuts should get Amir more scoring chances too.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    It could be because we don't have any legit post-up bigs, and we have very few perimeter players capable of breaking down the defense with their dribble. The high use of PNRs could simply be out of necessity.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    It could be because we don't have any legit post-up bigs, and we have very few perimeter players capable of breaking down the defense with their dribble. The high use of PNRs could simply be out of necessity.
    Since the PNR is one of the toughest things to defend, I'd say less necessity and more intelligent choice. But there is definitely merit to the idea that the lack of post scorer would impact our offensive schemes. That said, once we add a post scorer, I'd still expect a fairly heavy dose of PNR unless we are able to acquire an established post threat which could mean other current pieces are removed from the equation.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    At one point in the Warriors game, I swear we ran a 3-man weave at the top of the circle :|
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter OzRapFan's Avatar
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    Amir is great at his job and our perimeter player cant dribble, 1+1=2

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    Raptors Republic Starter peanutwoozle's Avatar
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    The problem could happen if it is all we run, then it becomes predictable (like what happened with Calderon)

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Too many...no you must mean too few. No such thing as too many screens.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
    The problem could happen if it is all we run, then it becomes predictable (like what happened with Calderon)
    How is it predictable?

    The PNR is the hardest thing for a defence to guard against because there are a plethora of options from it (drive, pass to roll, reverse dribble drive, step back, pick n pop, pick n post on switch, etc). Add in a second screen or other movement designed to get a defensive rotation and possible mismatch and the defence may know how a play initiates (pick at the high post) but doesn't know where it is going to end up. Since the options are all available, if the D takes one away, it usually leaves another option open.

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    Raptors Republic Starter peanutwoozle's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    How is it predictable?

    The PNR is the hardest thing for a defence to guard against because there are a plethora of options from it (drive, pass to roll, reverse dribble drive, step back, pick n pop, pick n post on switch, etc). Add in a second screen or other movement designed to get a defensive rotation and possible mismatch and the defence may know how a play initiates (pick at the high post) but doesn't know where it is going to end up. Since the options are all available, if the D takes one away, it usually leaves another option open.
    I mean if we always try to get the same guy in the same spot over and over, teams will read into it.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
    I mean if we always try to get the same guy in the same spot over and over, teams will read into it.
    So your fear is that teams will suddenly try to deny Demar/Lowry from getting the ball at the top of the key? How would they do that?

    Overplay the pass (to deny them from getting the ball) and you are susceptible to a simple backdoor cut, which would put the D in a worse position.

    Pressure them once they receive the ball and they can simply drive by their defender, which would put the D in a worse position.

    Deny the screener from getting position is holding and a foul.

    Just don't see any possible way that this could be a problem for the team. There is a reason teams don't put too much pressure on ball handlers at the top of the key unless it is a guy with poor handles or it is an elite defender.

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