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Thread: Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Default Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

    I know this thread will earn a few groans, but a thought stemmed from the Everything JV thread, where Stooley made a comment to the effect of "JV playing more minutes doesn't help us win games but it does help his development"; which got me thinking, at this point, what matters more?

    At the beginning of the season, it was all tank vs play-off experience. Now though, the question is, does it really matter which seed we get in the playoffs as long as it is 6th or higher?

    If the best case scenario with not blowing the team up mid-season, was to get playoff experience and maybe win a series, does any of that really change if we finish 3rd or 6th? Shouldn't we want to develop JV and Ross for the future more than letting John Salmons, Chuck Hayes and Tyler Hansbrough log important minutes? Does winning the division this year significantly matter?

    Now the gap from 3rd to 6th (as of today) is 3 games (with another 3 games separating 6th from 7th). So there is a 6 game window we are taking here. I'm not suggesting we throw games to finish with a lower seed, but I do contend, that the long-term success of this team needs more minutes for JV and Ross and less Salmons & Hayes, even at the expense of a few games down the stretch.

    Yes, making the playoffs is important and not facing either Miami or Indiana is important too, but other than that, I don't care which slot we get and would rather see our young guys on the court than old guys who are very unlikely to be back next year (and certainly not beyond).

    Right now, unless Charlotte can catch on of the 4 teams, the 3-6 slots are going to be Raps, Bulls, Wizards and Nets. I've seen a different poster saying that they'd rather face the Bulls, the Wiz and the Nets. At this point, I don't care, all 4 teams are formidable but with weaknesses. The Raps could just as easily beat or lose to any of the other 3.

    Now the bonus…cue the groans...Draft pick, would you rather have #17 or #20? Playoff teams are slotted based on their regular season record, so the East will likely have the first 6 non-lottery picks (since #8 in the west is better than #3 in the east).

    Since the 4 teams are equal on the court, I am willing to give up home court advantage, take our chances on the road and take the higher draft pick. Don't think the difference between 17 and 20 is that big? Well, look at the recent drafts. #17 has names like Josh Smith, Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert, Jrue Holiday, Iman Shumpert and Dennis Schroeder. #20 has names like Renaldo Balkman, Alexis Ajinca, Eric Maynor, Donatas Motiejunas, Evan Fournier and Tony Snell.

    The ultimate thought behind all of this is I am looking long-term and hope the Raptors are too. Long-term, JV's development is more important to this team's success than anything Chuck Hayes or Tyler Hansbrough can bring to the court this year. Ross's development is more important to this team than anything John Salmons can do. So let the young guys play through the mistakes, accept the growing pains and embrace the fact that as long as you don't give up a 6 game lead to Charlotte, the team can afford to lose a few games and be in a better position as a franchise (more developed young players + better pick) moving forward.

    Call it a stealth tank, call it long-term vision, call it what you will, just make sure you call #17 and #31 off the bench ahead of #25 and #44.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    That sends terrible message to the team. It goes against creating a winning culture.


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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Ugh.

    Put a team out that can play, and win. If the stiff can't keep up, lots of room on the pine.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    You make a good point. I was actually arguing for the other side elsewhere, but this was pretty persuasive.

    Those guys should get more minutes.

    It's not hurting the winning culture, because we aren't throwing games. We're developing a winning culture in our younger guys by giving them more minutes.

    I think the draft position is kind of an afterthought, but eh, it doesn't hurt.

    Also, I don't think home court is any big advantage in the first round. Maybe it makes a marginal difference, but if it costs us the ability to develop the future of our franchise, it's probably not worth it.

    Finally, we probably are doing that to an extent right now. Given JV's net rating, he should be playing far less than the already few minutes that he gets.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    That sends terrible message to the team. It goes against creating a winning culture.


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    How? You aren't trying to lose. Your simply supporting the reality of JV+Ross is more important to the team than Salmons+Hayes.

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    But, they aren't, not when they play like shit.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I understand the point of the OP, but it doesn't take into account the (potential) psychological damage of losing the 3rd seed, while limping into the playoffs.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post

    Finally, we probably are doing that to an extent right now. Given JV's net rating, he should be playing far less than the already few minutes that he gets.
    Seems that way.... and I don't mind it continuing, BUT, I do truly believe that a lot of the stuff we see, i son the players, not the coaching...JV, and Ross..... its almost 2 full seasons now....enough.... time to step it up and establish that you are a) average stiffs or b) star players getting ready to make a jump.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    But, they aren't, not when they play like shit.
    So if I understand your posts correctly, you are saying that John Salmons, Chuck Hayes and Tyler Hansbrough are more important to the long-term success of this franchise than Jonas Valanciunas and Terrence Ross?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I understand the point of the OP, but it doesn't take into account the (potential) psychological damage of losing the 3rd seed, while limping into the playoffs.
    Most years, I'd say that this is a potential issue, but this year, I'm not so sure. This is a team that seems to relish in the idea of being under-appreciated and under-estimated. Wouldn't the 5th or 6th slot better serve that mentality? Especially since it is the same 3 teams that the Raps would play in the 1st round.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    That sends terrible message to the team. It goes against creating a winning culture.


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    Gotta call BS on that one.

    GS had the most blatant in sesaon tank EVER in 2012.

    How did that work out of them?

    A winning culture starts with talent.

    The reality is for all the griping on JV, he is an average NBA C at 21 years of age.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Most years, I'd say that this is a potential issue, but this year, I'm not so sure. This is a team that seems to relish in the idea of being under-appreciated and under-estimated. Wouldn't the 5th or 6th slot better serve that mentality? Especially since it is the same 3 teams that the Raps would play in the 1st round.
    Perhaps....as long as they avoid reading all the media headlines claiming that the division title was ours to lose, and we crashed and burned during the final leg of the season
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    No more tanking please. I'm not even going to justify the "joy" of drafting 17 instead of 20 with a reply. Straight ridiculous

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Perhaps....as long as they avoid reading all the media headlines claiming that the division title was ours to lose, and we crashed and burned during the final leg of the season
    More fuel for the fire?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    No more tanking please. I'm not even going to justify the "joy" of drafting 17 instead of 20 with a reply. Straight ridiculous
    Draft is only a bonus, the main point is JV and Ross need to play crunch time minutes to develop and ultimately help this team.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Draft is only a bonus, the main point is JV and Ross need to play crunch time minutes to develop and ultimately help this team.
    The other school of thought is that having Ross and Jonas experience the playoffs at all (even in a limited capacity) would serve them well for the future.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    The other school of thought is that having Ross and Jonas experience the playoffs at all (even in a limited capacity) would serve them well for the future.
    Which gets accomplished regardless of the seed. So why not double-up and get the extra development time?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Which gets accomplished regardless of the seed. So why not double-up and get the extra development time?
    I think the reality of the situation is that, at this point in the season, Casey is playing to win. After all, he might be unemployed next season. It's in his best interest to use these final 20 games to set his 9-man rotation in stone (baring injuries), and stick with it. Whether that rotation heavily relies on Ross and Jonas, only Casey knows for sure. But I would find it hard to believe that Casey's thinking deep enough to consider selling playoff seeding in exchange for development time.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I think the reality of the situation is that, at this point in the season, Casey is playing to win. After all, he might be unemployed next season. It's in his best interest to use these final 20 games to set his 9-man rotation in stone (baring injuries), and stick with it. Whether that rotation heavily relies on Ross and Jonas, only Casey knows for sure. But I would find it hard to believe that Casey's thinking deep enough to consider selling playoff seeding in exchange for development time.
    Very true, Casey's situation hinders the amount of long-term thinking that would best serve this franchise, imo. If the option was given to Masai, what would he choose? What if Casey had a 3 year extension in place, would that change his position?

    Of course this is all hypothetical. It's not like Casey is going to read RR and say, "you're right, let's play JV and Ross more" ~ which would simultaneously make him the most awesome and worst coach ever.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    6th means we play Bulls in first round. Which means we watch 2nd round from home rather than at the ACC. I don't like 6th.

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