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Thread: Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    6th means we play Bulls in first round. Which means we watch 2nd round from home rather than at the ACC. I don't like 6th.
    Bulls aren't guaranteed 3rd. 3 games is all that separates these 4 teams with 20 games to go. Besides, Bulls without Deng and Rose are going to really struggle to score in a best of 7 series. Lowry vs Augustin for 7 games, I'll take my chances.
    F*ck Brooklyn

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    First, I'm not entirely convinced that playing JV & Ross more minutes ahead of Hansborough/Hayes & Salmons/Fields/Novak would even result in more losses. DC has a short leash for young players (rightfully so, quite often) and prefers veterans he can rely on, but I have yet to see any of those veteran scrubs really have any positive impact on the ultimate outcome of any games (aside from Hansborough in short bursts). I've never had an issue with DC yanking the young players out after making a boneheaded play, but I completely disagree with them being left to rot on the bench for long stretches (or never getting back in). The vets often get winded playing extended minutes and the youngsters are rusty and out of the flow of the game if/when they do get back in, which I've often observed to have a double negative impact.

    Second, I completely agree with taking the long view for this team. The Raptors aren't winning the championship this season and likely have no shot at making it through the second round. Regardless of which team (Chicago, Brooklyn, Washington) they play or who has home-court advantage, I don't see the Raptors' chances of winning a 1st round series changing very much. Any series will be an entertaining, hard-fought series, with Toronto having a good chance of winning it. Many anti-tankers were arguing that this season should be all about getting playoff experience for the young players, which made sense. I'm lost as to why that goal is suddenly taking a backseat to winning the division? True experience is gained by being on the court in crunch time and in playoff games (or playoff like games down the stretch). Let the youngsters play & develop, while possibly improving draft positioning (even 3 spots could drastically improve the quality of player added to the core, or could enhance the value of the Raps' own pick for facilitating a trade up in the draft). Seems like a win-win to me, that would have minimal impact on playoff outcomes.

    Third, if this team is building for the future, playing the youngsters more in meaningful situations now could very well improve the team's chances for future success. JV & Ross are likely going to be key contributors for the Raptors for years to come, while it's unlikely any of those scrubs are going to be around longer than their contract (if that).
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Mar 11th, 2014 at 11:56 AM.

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  4. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    Playing Ross more minutes would not give the raptors a lower seed, though

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. JV and Ross are getting plenty of experience even if vetrans are favoured later in the game. As astutely pointed out by the wise Matty D in last night's broadcast, of all top teams in competition, I think the raps are the only one starting and featuring 2 second year players. These guys are still at the beginning of their development, not at the point where they are in peak regular season form and now need the playoff drive to push them on to better things. Home court in the playoffs, playing as low a seed as you can (although I admit that it is a bit murky now).....that will be the electric dynamic of the playoffs that those guys can enjoy and spend the rest of their development getting back to.
    It's not just about Lowry...It's about the 3 spot.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    First, I'm not entirely convinced that playing JV & Ross more minutes ahead of Hansborough/Hayes & Salmons/Fields/Novak would even result in more losses. DC has a short leash for young players (rightfully so, quite often) and prefers veterans he can rely on, but I have yet to see any of those veteran scrubs really have any positive impact on the ultimate outcome of any games (aside from Hansborough in short bursts). I've never had an issue with DC yanking the young players out after making a boneheaded play, but I completely disagree with them being left to rot on the bench for long stretches (or never getting back in). The vets often get winded playing extended minutes and the youngsters are rusty and out of the flow of the game if/when they do get back in, which I've often observed to have a double negative impact.

    Second, I completely agree with taking the long view for this team. The Raptors aren't winning the championship this season and likely have no shot at making it through the second round. Regardless of which team (Chicago, Brooklyn, Washington) they play or who has home-court advantage, I don't see the Raptors' chances of winning a 1st round series changing very much. Any series will be an entertaining, hard-fought series, with Toronto having a good chance of winning it. Many anti-tankers were arguing that this season should be all about getting playoff experience for the young players, which made sense. I'm lost as to why that goal is suddenly taking a backseat to winning the division? True experience is gained by being on the court in crunch time and in playoff games (or playoff like games down the stretch). Let the youngsters play & develop, while possibly improving draft positioning (even 3 spots could drastically improve the quality of player added to the core, or could enhance the value of the Raps' own pick for facilitating a trade up in the draft). Seems like a win-win to me, that would have minimal impact on playoff outcomes.

    Third, if this team is building for the future, playing the youngsters more in meaningful situations now could very well improve the team's chances for future success. JV & Ross are likely going to be key contributors for the Raptors for years to come, while it's unlikely any of those scrubs are going to be around longer than their contract (if that).
    This is exactly the train of thought that led to me OP.
    F*ck Brooklyn

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. JV and Ross are getting plenty of experience even if vetrans are favoured later in the game. As astutely pointed out by the wise Matty D in last night's broadcast, of all top teams in competition, I think the raps are the only one starting and featuring 2 second year players. These guys are still at the beginning of their development, not at the point where they are in peak regular season form and now need the playoff drive to push them on to better things. Home court in the playoffs, playing as low a seed as you can (although I admit that it is a bit murky now).....that will be the electric dynamic of the playoffs that those guys can enjoy and spend the rest of their development getting back to.
    Crunch time minutes are different than other minutes in much the same way, playoff games are different than regular season. A young guy has to learn how to succeed in the pressure. Giving these valuable minutes to Salmons & Hayes means that Ross and JV aren't getting that experience.
    F*ck Brooklyn

  8. #27
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    We're 8 games above .500 with 20 games left and tanking thread appears. Only raptor fans I tell you. Our we just so use to losing we enjoy it.

    The days of playing just cause your young and have "potential" is over in raptor land. Do you guys want JV to play so badly that your willing to have him pick up bad defensive tendencies like DD and Barney did? It's not easy to get out of those. Example DeMar DeRozan. He will only play D when his going on O. Thank you Triano.


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    Playing opportunities are important but I think there's also merit to the idea that you have to earn what you get. If Jonas was collecting DNPs, getting garbage minutes or sitting in the DLeague, fair enough. But he's getting pretty good minutes, starting, getting to play the best players in the league.

    Jonas is already getting 20 to 30 minutes almost every night. Maybe giving him 5 or 10 more would help him. Or maybe it wouldn't. Maybe if he's given minutes of regardless how he plays, it would provoke complacency, form bad habbits and hurt him long term. Or maybe it would hurt the team chemistry. If Hansbrough is benched despite playing better that night, and that happens time and time again, I could easily see it backfiring.

    Coaches make lots of mistakes. That said, they still know more about basketball and player development than any of us. So I think it's ok to give them the benefit of the doubt in a case like this.

    When it comes to the draft picks argument, I don't think the difference between no.17 and no.20 is all that big. Yes, there are a few nice names picked at no.17 but that looks pretty accidental. Historically, no.17, 21, 24 look really strong, multiple all stars drafted there. Picks no. 11, 12, 15, 18, 19, 20 look much worse. But that doesn't mean that we'd trade a no.11 or 12 pick for no.17 or 24, right. Draft is always a bit of a crapshoot, and some luck + a good GM can go a long way in making a low pick look awesome.
    Obviously, it's nicer to have no.17 compared to no.20 but I wouldn't at all consider tanking for that and losing homecourt advantage. At all.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    If the team is dropping in the standings for the sake of development, why don't we just get a coach who will have the good sense to play them consistent minutes?
    Twitter - @thekid_it

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    We're 8 games above .500 with 20 games left and tanking thread appears. Only raptor fans I tell you. Our we just so use to losing we enjoy it.

    The days of playing just cause your young and have "potential" is over in raptor land. Do you guys want JV to play so badly that your willing to have him pick up bad defensive tendencies like DD and Barney did? It's not easy to get out of those. Example DeMar DeRozan. He will only play D when his going on O. Thank you Triano.


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    1. This isn't about tanking, its about player development within a set of parameters (top 6 finish) to achieve long term goals.
    2. How does JV learn by sitting for extended periods? It's not like there's an assistant sitting with him, discussing what is happening on the court and how to read the play then react appropriately. He's sitting there, internalizing on his own. If he makes a mistake, you can sub him out, discuss it, then send him back in there.
    F*ck Brooklyn

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    There is a magic number right for Raptors to clinch playoffs. Once they do that I think they can rest Amir, Demar and Kyle and let Ross and JV run the show. I'm down for that.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    I agree with CalgaryRapsFan in that I don't think playing either Ross or JV is going to necessarily mean we lose more. I've been impressed with what I have seen from both players over recent weeks, and I have thought that both of them deserved more minutes. JV does display some defensive troubles, but I wouldn't be so quick to yank him unless of course he is in foul trouble. Ross has been pretty good on both ends and it mystifies me that he isn't getting more minutes.

    And as far as JV is concerned, he isn't getting the "appropriate" opportunities offensively IMO. I believe he can score more than what we have seen, but he just isn't getting the touches to show what he can do. And I also believe that the more involved in the offense JV is, the better he will be on the defensive end. That being said, if Hayes needs to be inserted to deal with a good low post player that is schooling JV, then so be it, I have no issue with that.

    I also think that the development of Ross and JV can significantly improve the ceiling of this team as is. Both these guys will be great players IMO. They need to play more, but if they are total liabilities on the floor (which I don't think they are in general, but maybe in specific situations, i.e. is JV a good option for a small ball lineup or would you prefer Amir at the 5?) than yeah sit them if you think it will cost the game.

    Also, I'm not concerned about our draft position at all.

  16. #33
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    Quote MixxAOR wrote: View Post
    There is a magic number right for Raptors to clinch playoffs. Once they do that I think they can rest Amir, Demar and Kyle and let Ross and JV run the show. I'm down for that.
    I don't see that happening. Maybe for game 81 and 82 but I doubt you'll see much rest before that just because they clinch a top 8.

  17. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Few thoughts:

    1. I agree with CagaryRapsFan to the extent that I am not entirely certain playing Ross more means more losses. Salmons hasn't been good in a month and a half.

    2. All I will say about JV is that if he is going good Casey does play him. The idea that Casey freezes out JV when he is playing well isn't true. During JV's great run at the end of January through the start of February, Casey was playing him 30+ minutes. He's dialed back his minutes recently because, frankly, JV hasn't been doing enough to justify more minutes.

    3. I am not sure playing guys more minutes necessarily equals development. Experience has some impact, obviously, but if a guy is struggling out there, does it benefit or hurt the player to continually stick with him? Also, even if I am wrong about this entirely, JV is still playing meaningful minutes for a playoff team. Does another 6 or 7 minutes make a material difference? Ross hasn't really "developed" so much in my eyes as he has finally been given an opportunity and seized it.

    4. As for the draft pick, the marginal benefit here seems negligible.

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  19. #35
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    1. This isn't about tanking, its about player development within a set of parameters (top 6 finish) to achieve long term goals.
    2. How does JV learn by sitting for extended periods? It's not like there's an assistant sitting with him, discussing what is happening on the court and how to read the play then react appropriately. He's sitting there, internalizing on his own. If he makes a mistake, you can sub him out, discuss it, then send him back in there.
    Every time I read the comments about JV I think of Hibbert's second year.

    Assistant coach Frank Vogel will take over for the rest of the season. He has been a scout for the Los Angeles Lakers and Washington Wizards, and served as an assistant coach for O'Brien in Philadelphia and Boston.

    Bird was bothered by O'Brien's refusal to give more minutes to the team's young players. Bird said he'd like to see rookie Paul George play more, and he was frustrated with how little forward Tyler Hansbrough played early in the season. He felt that O'Brien's public berating of center Roy Hibbert damaged the 7-foot-2 center's confidence. Bird and Vogel agreed that Hibbert is an important piece of the team's future.

    Bird also said he would like to see rookie Lance Stephenson get onto the court. The second-round draft pick has not played this season.


    Many fans criticized O'Brien because he constantly changed lineups, at times leaving players inactive, then suddenly making them starters and sometimes leaving players who were performing well on the bench for long stretches.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6074127
    In Vogel’s ten games as coach since being introduced as the interim on Jan. 30, the Pacers have won seven out of 10 contests, seen their scoring jump nearly 10 points a game and, most importantly, Roy Hibbert has reconnected with his early season self: the guy who backed you down, pinned you under the basket and did what any young center and most improved player candidate does: score, rebound, block and be happy.

    He’s averaging 17.8 points per game and 8.4 rebounds under Vogel, which is well over his 13.2 point and 7.8 rebound season average. Clearly things are coming back together, even getting better than they were.

    The best way to tell how the Pacers are doing is to ask how Roy Hibbert is doing. If Hibbert stays confident and continues to produce, the Pacers will be fine. But if his edge goes, so too does the team's chance at a spot in the playoffs for the first time in five seasons.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/on-o...uccess-failure

    Not sure JV will reach his potential just because of a new coach. However I can tell you that swagger and confidence he use to exude is no longer visible. That is sad and combined with the results is telling.
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    We're 8 games above .500 with 20 games left and tanking thread appears. Only raptor fans I tell you. Our we just so use to losing we enjoy it.

    The days of playing just cause your young and have "potential" is over in raptor land. Do you guys want JV to play so badly that your willing to have him pick up bad defensive tendencies like DD and Barney did? It's not easy to get out of those. Example DeMar DeRozan. He will only play D when his going on O. Thank you Triano.


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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Every time I read the comments about JV I think of Hibbert's second year.


    Not sure JV will reach his potential just because of a new coach. However I can tell you that swagger and confidence he use to exude is no longer visible. That is sad and combined with the results is telling.

    That is an epic find, especially with the benefit of hindsight and knowing how well those young guys (Paul George, Lance Stephenson, Roy Hibbert) turned out. Larry Bird is a brilliant basketball mind.
    F*ck Brooklyn

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  23. #38
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Every time I read the comments about JV I think of Hibbert's second year.

    Not sure JV will reach his potential just because of a new coach. However I can tell you that swagger and confidence he use to exude is no longer visible. That is sad and combined with the results is telling.
    O'Brien had lost the team, though. The Pacers players basically gave up on him and the team was losing. The Raptors are playing their best ball since, well, maybe ever. Again, it's not like JV is getting jerked around. His minutes have been reduced because he has been playing poorly. I supect no one would like to get him back to his form of a few weeks ago more than Casey....

  24. #39
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    O'Brien had lost the team, though. The Pacers players basically gave up on him and the team was losing. The Raptors are playing their best ball since, well, maybe ever. Again, it's not like JV is getting jerked around. His minutes have been reduced because he has been playing poorly. I supect no one would like to get him back to his form of a few weeks ago more than Casey....
    Very good point. After watching JV attempt to do the "Hebbert"(principle of verticality) how can you support him playing big time mins in the 4th?


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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Every time I read the comments about JV I think of Hibbert's second year.

    Not sure JV will reach his potential just because of a new coach. However I can tell you that swagger and confidence he use to exude is no longer visible. That is sad and combined with the results is telling.
    I remember O'Brien taking Hibbert's starting job at one point and giving it to Solomon Jones (who was the definition of a scrub), and asking Hibbert to drop weight and develop a 3pt shot. All the while the Pacers were losing and most of the team seemed to hate the coach. And Paul George was collecting DNPs.

    I just think that situation is far away from Casey and the Raptors.

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