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Thread: Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Very good point. After watching JV attempt to do the "Hebbert"(principle of verticality) how can you support him playing big time mins in the 4th?


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    After watching the career progression of Hibbert, how can you not?

    If you want JV to be comfortable playing on a big stage next year and the years after that, then you need to acclimatize him. Why not now when the stakes are fairly low? We are going to make the playoffs anyway, so why not let him get used to the crunch time?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    O'Brien had lost the team, though. The Pacers players basically gave up on him and the team was losing. The Raptors are playing their best ball since, well, maybe ever. Again, it's not like JV is getting jerked around. His minutes have been reduced because he has been playing poorly. I supect no one would like to get him back to his form of a few weeks ago more than Casey....
    Fair enough.

    However, when he plays well, like in the 3rd Q, should he be benched the remainder of the game.... well, 5 secs but you know what I mean.

    How many games has he played decent in only to sit the 4th?

    When JV was on that 10 game dominant streak, he made Nick Young look humble.

    If Casey wants him to return to form boosting his confidence and rewarding good play should be priority #1 - even if it comes on the heels of bad play even within the same game.


    Seriously - what message is sent when the 4th Q starts and CHUCK HAYES gets the nod?
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  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    I remember O'Brien taking Hibbert's starting job at one point and giving it to Solomon Jones (who was the definition of a scrub), and asking Hibbert to drop weight and develop a 3pt shot. All the while the Pacers were losing and most of the team seemed to hate the coach. And Paul George was collecting DNPs.

    I just think that situation is far away from Casey and the Raptors.
    You are right it is an extreme situation and in no way shape or form do I think Casey is on the level of O'Brien.

    However going with vets/age over talent/youth is the point I'm raising here along with destroying guys confidence.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  5. #44
    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Very good point. After watching JV attempt to do the "Hebbert"(principle of verticality) how can you support him playing big time mins in the 4th?


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    Interestingly enough, " the Hibbert" is one of the things I find JV good at on defense..
    He randomly turns himself around and his back ends up facing the dude driving on occasion (?????) but it seems to work mostly Lol
    Last edited by BigCamB; Tue Mar 11th, 2014 at 02:42 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Fair enough.

    However, when he plays well, like in the 3rd Q, should he be benched the remainder of the game.... well, 5 secs but you know what I mean.

    How many games has he played decent in only to sit the 4th?

    When JV was on that 10 game dominant streak, he made Nick Young look humble.

    If Casey wants him to return to form boosting his confidence and rewarding good play should be priority #1 - even if it comes on the heels of bad play even within the same game.


    Seriously - what message is sent when the 4th Q starts and CHUCK HAYES gets the nod?
    That Chuck Hayes give the team a better chance at winning at that point and time. If that bothers him than he should be in the gym instead of ice fishing. JV has started every single NBA game his played. Drummond didn't even start most of last year. Whose the better player at the moment?


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  7. #46
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    It's an interesting discussion, but I can't envision it actually happening. For better or worse, the time for prioritizing development over wins/losses has come and gone. There's no way Casey would agree to this type of calculated plan, and I'm really not sure that he should be either.

    As you pointed out, the difference between teams 3 thru 6 in the East this season is razor thin. I think that will make late season momentum more important than usual, not less important.

    I don't think Ross/JV are unfairly benched all that often anymore to begin with though. Yes, there are a few games when Casey seemingly "forgets" about them but for the most part I think their playing time is tied in with their performance. That's a good thing moving forward, especially when it comes on a competitive playoff team. It used to drive me nuts when JV and Ross would be stapled to the bench and the team was still lousy. If they're having success then Casey is entitled to do whatever he feels fit to continue it.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Jv will get better with or without the extra minutes. He has all summer to work on his game, and who's to say letting him get bullied night in night out won't hinder his development rather than speed it up? I say let the coach do his thing and be patient with the youngster


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    Quote wallz wrote: View Post
    Jv will get better with or without the extra minutes. He has all summer to work on his game, and who's to say letting him get bullied night in night out won't hinder his development rather than speed it up? I say let the coach do his thing and be patient with the youngster


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    Somewhat off topic to the thread, but I suspect that more than anything Jonas could use a summer off from international basketball. Work with the Raptors staff, go join Hibbert and Duncan in San Antonio, or something. Have a plan how to get better, as opposed to spend the summer learning Euro plays.

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  11. #49
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Corrected

    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Somewhat off topic to the thread, but I suspect that more than anything Jonas could use a summer off from international basketball. Work with the Raptors staff, go join Hibbert and Duncan in San Antonio, or something. Have a plan how to get better, as opposed to spend the summer learning Euro plays while riding the pine.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  13. #50
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I was talking about this in the gamethread last night, but it's not all about trying to get JV minutes. Sometimes the lack of playing time is just surprising given matchups and how Casey handles the rest of the rotation.

    Last night:
    -Other than a couple of minutes against Collins, Hayes is not in any way a good matchup for Blatche or Plumlee
    -Because of how he had his subs in the late 3rd, it would not give Amir much of a rest to put him back in early in the 4th.
    -Hansbrough was put in around the 4 minute mark of the 3rd, and ended up staying on the court until Casey went offence/defence for the last minute+ of the game. That's a 15 minute shift for an energy player. THAT is bad coaching.
    -So an easy option would've been finding a way to get JV about a 2-3 minute stint to help stagger Amir and Hansbrough so that both are as fresh as possible down the stretch. You can't play JV with Hayes, and it's hard to put Amir back in so quickly. He was playing well in the 3rd, and was a better matchup for the Nets bigs.

    Jonas shouldn't be forcefed minutes or touches, but they should find ways to reward him when he plays well, and try to get him much needed late-game experience especially against matchups that make sense, because there will be nights where it really doesn't make sense matchup-wise to throw him out there (but last night was not one of those nights).

    Again, people need to be patient. This means keeping optimism and pessimism in check about his development. He's 21 and his body isn't even a finished product. Guys like Drummond and Howard are the exceptions, not the norm. They were basically fully developed physically when they were 18. And Drummond's mental game is still really bad. At least as bad as JV's. His better production is from his physical gifts, not improvements in his skill-level or IQ.

    It just takes time, especially when a guy is so young.

  14. #51
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Somewhat off topic to the thread, but I suspect that more than anything Jonas could use a summer off from international basketball. Work with the Raptors staff, go join Hibbert and Duncan in San Antonio, or something. Have a plan how to get better, as opposed to spend the summer learning Euro plays.
    I'd love for that part to happen. Duncan is exactly the kind of game JV needs to mimic because it's based on skill and IQ rather than supreme athletic gifts. That's an issue with sending him to Hakeem. Even if JV gets leaner and gets some of his pop back, he'll never have the nimbleness to pull off Hakeem-type moves. Duncan is a much better guy to learn from.

    I don't think the international ball is a big deal as long as he plays a decent amount. And this tournament is shorter and earlier than last summer's Euro's. The question is will he play? He did get some decent minutes last summer, but they were inconsistent and some games he barely saw the floor.

  15. #52
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    I'm actually hoping we can drop to 4th seed so we can get Washington in the first round.

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    Quote Jordan Evans wrote: View Post
    I'm actually hoping we can drop to 4th seed so we can get Washington in the first round.
    Unless Brooklyn catches Washington for 5th
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    It's crazy that with 20 games to go, we've already passed our win total from last year.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Very good point. After watching JV attempt to do the "Hebbert"(principle of verticality) how can you support him playing big time mins in the 4th?
    Actually with how quickly JV has learned the rule of verticality I am excited with his ability to learn the nuances quicker than Hibbert (who took until year 5 before he became a force)

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If Casey wants him to return to form boosting his confidence and rewarding good play should be priority #1 - even if it comes on the heels of bad play even within the same game.


    Seriously - what message is sent when the 4th Q starts and CHUCK HAYES gets the nod?
    I think if Casey wants to win in the playoffs, we need a confident, assertive JV because when he is going he demands a lot of attention and teams have a hard time stopping him

    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    That Chuck Hayes give the team a better chance at winning at that point and time. If that bothers him than he should be in the gym instead of ice fishing. JV has started every single NBA game his played. Drummond didn't even start most of last year. Whose the better player at the moment?
    No he doesn't. The only time I like Chuck Hayes is vs Cousins or Al Jefferson. The rest of the time JV is better due to his much superior rebounding and lane intimidation. When Hayes is on the floor, people tend to forget that the other team can drive in and get whatever because they know Hayes isn't going to block them. With JV there is much more lane intimidation

    Quote wallz wrote: View Post
    Jv will get better with or without the extra minutes. He has all summer to work on his game, and who's to say letting him get bullied night in night out won't hinder his development rather than speed it up? I say let the coach do his thing and be patient with the youngster
    With the lack of practice time (union rules), it is difficult to get the hours outside of game time to improve that much.

    Also consider that game time is worth thousands of hours of practice.

    JV needs to get some consistent minutes. This means that he should start, if he plays well, play him until he starts to get fatigued, if he is playing poorly, 3 strikes and he is out and you explain to him WHY he is on the bench. He should then sit until the 7 minute mark in the second (regardless of how he is playing, this makes for consistency), if he is playing well he plays out the half, 3 strikes rule again if playing poorly. Rinse and repeat for the second half. This ensures consistency AND accountability, and demands a higher level of awareness and play from the players, without hampering a players confidence because they know if they are sitting on the bench, it is because they screwed up. As a coach you need to set a specific set of rules and stick to them, this allows the players and the coach to be on the same level. Casey has no organized set of rules that I can see...one reason why he is a bad coach

  19. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Somewhat off topic to the thread, but I suspect that more than anything Jonas could use a summer off from international basketball. Work with the Raptors staff, go join Hibbert and Duncan in San Antonio, or something. Have a plan how to get better, as opposed to spend the summer learning Euro plays.
    That's basically what I meant. And it's not really off topic if the point of the thread is whether or not he should be getting more minutes for development

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    Quote wallz wrote: View Post
    That's basically what I meant. And it's not really off topic if the point of the thread is whether or not he should be getting more minutes for development
    Your post wasn't off topic, I meant that my thoughts on FIBA, Duncan, Hibbert etc were going to be a bit off topic.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post


    With the lack of practice time (union rules), it is difficult to get the hours outside of game time to improve that much.

    Also consider that game time is worth thousands of hours of practice.

    JV needs to get some consistent minutes. This means that he should start, if he plays well, play him until he starts to get fatigued, if he is playing poorly, 3 strikes and he is out and you explain to him WHY he is on the bench. He should then sit until the 7 minute mark in the second (regardless of how he is playing, this makes for consistency), if he is playing well he plays out the half, 3 strikes rule again if playing poorly. Rinse and repeat for the second half. This ensures consistency AND accountability, and demands a higher level of awareness and play from the players, without hampering a players confidence because they know if they are sitting on the bench, it is because they screwed up. As a coach you need to set a specific set of rules and stick to them, this allows the players and the coach to be on the same level. Casey has no organized set of rules that I can see...one reason why he is a bad coach
    First bold: Says who? Not everyone develops the same way. There are plenty of guys that learned their way sitting on the bench (look at hibbert's first two years, plus he was older than JV).

    Second: He pulls Jonas when he's playing bad; not rebounding, not running the floor hard, poor defence, etc. Just from the eye test, I can tell when Casey's going to bench him. There's nothing wrong with pulling a youngster off the floor and letting him know what he's doing wrong. Yet that makes him a bad coach because it doesn't 'look' organized?

    Besides, 27 minutes a game for a 21 year old center that is nowhere near where he needs to be physically (although I'm sure he will get there eventually) is fine with me, and I'm sure the other 29 NBA coaches wouldn't handle the situation much different

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    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Off Topic but I probably just found the funniest video on the interent
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater
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  24. #60
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Your post wasn't off topic, I meant that my thoughts on FIBA, Duncan, Hibbert etc were going to be a bit off topic.
    Ohh, gotcha!

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