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Thread: Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

  1. #101
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Don't really agree with this at all. James Johnson has played for 4 teams and his biggest role and opportunity was given to him in Toronto. Bayless has played for 5 teams now and, again, his best years and biggest opportunity were in Toronto. Ditto for Ed Davis who plays 10 minutes less a game in Memphis.

    Ross has improved his contribution significantly over last year and has become a key to the team's success. Valanciuanas hasn't been great but it's mostly been a function of poor shooting vs. last year as opposed to any fundamental issues. Meanwhile, Derozan, Lowry and Amir Johnson have all had career years under Casey.
    You beat me to it. Casey has plenty of faults but stopping James Johnson and Jarred Bayless from spreading their wings is not one of them. Yes, the minutes for those guys were all over the place but so was their play, hence JJ/Bayless being relegated to journeyman status within 5 years of being in the league.

  2. #102
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    You beat me to it. Casey has plenty of faults but stopping James Johnson and Jarred Bayless from spreading their wings is not one of them. Yes, the minutes for those guys were all over the place but so was their play, hence JJ/Bayless being relegated to journeyman status within 5 years of being in the league.
    Agreed. I don't think running them out there and letting them play through everything would have made them more effective basketball players. Heck, for all we know, Casey could have helped develop them better than most coaches could have

  3. #103
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    Quote wallz wrote: View Post
    Agreed. I don't think running them out there and letting them play through everything would have made them more effective basketball players. Heck, for all we know, Casey could have helped develop them better than most coaches could have
    Someone already mentioned it above but Johnson and Bayless both experienced arguably their greatest personal success in Toronto under Casey.

  4. #104
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    Not all players develop the same. Some (like DeRozan) may improve from being force-fed minutes, other guys might develop better if they're yanked every time they screw up.

    Look at the Spurs for example. Parker basically got consistent minutes from day 1, while Manu's were always sporadic and he could be sat at any time if he was making mistakes. I'm pretty sure both of those guys turned out ok.

    I don't think anyone here knows more about player development than our coaching staff. Let's let Casey and co. handle it (not like we have a choice anyway).

  5. #105
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Not all players develop the same. Some (like DeRozan) may improve from being force-fed minutes, other guys might develop better if they're yanked every time they screw up.

    Look at the Spurs for example. Parker basically got consistent minutes from day 1, while Manu's were always sporadic and he could be sat at any time if he was making mistakes. I'm pretty sure both of those guys turned out ok.

    I don't think anyone here knows more about player development than our coaching staff. Let's let Casey and co. handle it (not like we have a choice anyway).
    Don't think the Spurs players are overly relevant though. Parker joined as a rookie PG on a team that didn't really have any PG options on the roster (Antonio Daniels - combo guard being the other to start at PG that year) as Avery Johnson retired before this season. Manu joined a team (who won 60 games that year) that already had a (pre-crazy) 24 year old Stephen Jackson, 31 year old Bruce Bowen and veteran 33 year old Steve Smith at the SG/SF position. Considering the Spurs were already Championship contenders the day before Manu joined the team (as a 2nd round pick), the expectation for playing time is significantly different; so Manu receiving 20 mins per game is actually pretty good.

    The Raps are not winning 60 games. The Raps are not Championship contenders. The Raps weren't expected to even be contending for the division, so we are playing with house money at this point. We have 2 high lottery picks (top 10) that lose minutes to a 34 yr old journeyman (who can be bought up before July for $1M and will likely be gone next year) shooting 37% FG% and a 30 year old journeyman center who is shorter than our starting SG.

    How is that not a problem?

    As for the bold, are you certain? Coaches in the NBA are brilliant basketball minds, but they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Casey sure knows how to coach a defence, but there isn't much evidence to suggest that he is very capable at player development. Following blindly, without questioning motives and decisions, isn't a very good thing to do. If you want to be a lemming and follow the leader off the cliff, then have at it. But decision makers should always be questioned to ensure that they are staying vigilant and making the best choices for all.

    We all want the same thing here, a championship team. I happen to have an opinion on ways to get there and joined a forum to share and discuss it. Since we are on page 6, I'd say lots of people don't want to join the lemming stampede.

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  7. #106
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    The Raps are not winning 60 games. The Raps are not Championship contenders. The Raps weren't expected to even be contending for the division, so we are playing with house money at this point. We have 2 high lottery picks (top 10) that lose minutes to a 34 yr old journeyman (who can be bought up before July for $1M and will likely be gone next year) shooting 37% FG% and a 30 year old journeyman center who is shorter than our starting SG.

    How is that not a problem?

    .
    The coach is doing his job. Young guys are getting enough minutes to gain experience/develop and the team is winning games. If Masai wants to risk losing for more playing time for the youngsters, I'm sure he'd let the coach know

  8. #107
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptor Jesus's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    As for the bold, are you certain? Coaches in the NBA are brilliant basketball minds, but they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Casey sure knows how to coach a defence, but there isn't much evidence to suggest that he is very capable at player development. Following blindly, without questioning motives and decisions, isn't a very good thing to do. If you want to be a lemming and follow the leader off the cliff, then have at it. But decision makers should always be questioned to ensure that they are staying vigilant and making the best choices for all.

    We all want the same thing here, a championship team. I happen to have an opinion on ways to get there and joined a forum to share and discuss it. Since we are on page 6, I'd say lots of people don't want to join the lemming stampede.
    At what point do you stop questioning decision makers and follow their decision?

    Casey has a team of coaches around him. They all have their expertise. The organization is constantly monitoring the affects of their assets. If they felt something was askew they'd make changes.

  9. #108
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    Quote wallz wrote: View Post
    The coach is doing his job. Young guys are getting enough minutes to gain experience/develop and the team is winning games. If Masai wants to risk losing for more playing time for the youngsters, I'm sure he'd let the coach know
    Quote Raptor Jesus wrote: View Post
    At what point do you stop questioning decision makers and follow their decision?

    Casey has a team of coaches around him. They all have their expertise. The organization is constantly monitoring the affects of their assets. If they felt something was askew they'd make changes.
    It's posts like these that make me question why people bother joining a forum. What were you expecting the topics to be about? There are only so many ways to talk about "Demar scored 24 points last night".

    If you aren't willing to explore different ideas and discuss their validity, then perhaps you should stick to the game threads and box scores.

  10. #109
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    It's posts like these that make me question why people bother joining a forum. What were you expecting the topics to be about? There are only so many ways to talk about "Demar scored 24 points last night".

    If you aren't willing to explore different ideas and discuss their validity, then perhaps you should stick to the game threads and box scores.
    It's the interest to be the first to scream the sky is falling that I never understood. If you're right the best case scenario is you feel smug right before we all die.

    Box scores get torn to pieces by people with an angle. Just as much as individuals hard up when their interests go unmet. Worse still while the opposite sees success.

    There's plenty to be said about the first playoff appearance in forever and the prospect of expectations beyond limp into 8th.

  11. #110
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    It's posts like these that make me question why people bother joining a forum. What were you expecting the topics to be about? There are only so many ways to talk about "Demar scored 24 points last night".

    If you aren't willing to explore different ideas and discuss their validity, then perhaps you should stick to the game threads and box scores.
    Discussing different ideas is exactly what we're doing. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that Casey isn't doing his job properly . People aren't aloud to have a minority opinion around here or what?

  12. #111
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    Quote wallz wrote: View Post
    Discussing different ideas is exactly what we're doing. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that Casey isn't doing his job properly . People aren't aloud to have a minority opinion around here or what?
    Sorry if I improperly lumped you in with people who post things like "Casey knows more than you so why bother discuss it". I got that vibe from your post, and it would have been one of several to that affect lately that frustrates me. If that wasn't your intent, then I apologize.

    That said, why do you think Casey is doing his job?

  13. #112
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    Quote Raptor Jesus wrote: View Post
    It's the interest to be the first to scream the sky is falling that I never understood. If you're right the best case scenario is you feel smug right before we all die.

    Box scores get torn to pieces by people with an angle. Just as much as individuals hard up when their interests go unmet. Worse still while the opposite sees success.

    There's plenty to be said about the first playoff appearance in forever and the prospect of expectations beyond limp into 8th.
    Funny, I don't seem to remember mentioning anything about the sky falling. Perhaps re-read the OP.

    To your bold, that is a part of the essence behind the OP. Before the season started, we weren't all thinking that we need to win the division, or even have home court. We were thinking we were going to either sneak into the playoffs and gain valuable experience, or blow the team up. So if that was the season goal, why re-write that goal to win 3rd if it means less development for our young players? Winning 3rd won't help us in the long-term but developing JV and Ross will.

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  15. #113
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Sorry if I improperly lumped you in with people who post things like "Casey knows more than you so why bother discuss it". I got that vibe from your post, and it would have been one of several to that affect lately that frustrates me. If that wasn't your intent, then I apologize.

    That said, why do you think Casey is doing his job?
    As I said before, coaches job is to get the most out of his players and win games. He's doing this all while giving the sophomores minutes to develop. I understand that those minutes are unpredictable, and that is a legitimate fault of his. But for the most part he's doing what he's supposed to be doing, IMO.

    I guess I should stop arguing the same topic, I'm gonna turn into '"you know who" soon enough

  16. #114
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Funny, I don't seem to remember mentioning anything about the sky falling. Perhaps re-read the OP.

    To your bold, that is a part of the essence behind the OP. Before the season started, we weren't all thinking that we need to win the division, or even have home court. We were thinking we were going to either sneak into the playoffs and gain valuable experience, or blow the team up. So if that was the season goal, why re-write that goal to win 3rd if it means less development for our young players? Winning 3rd won't help us in the long-term but developing JV and Ross will.
    You've monitored your thread you know I've pitched in my 2 cents: 2 hours of court time and 3 draft slots isn't as valuable as home playoff games.

    I responded several times to posters looking to dig in an rehash the rebuilding/tanking/development failed opportunity. The fact is this season went a different route. Short of belabouring the point further; we've accomplished much and can anticipate more. Doubling back to get even more diverts our focus.

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  18. #115
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    Quote Raptor Jesus wrote: View Post
    You've monitored your thread you know I've pitched in my 2 cents: 2 hours of court time and 3 draft slots isn't as valuable as home playoff games.

    I responded several times to posters looking to dig in an rehash the rebuilding/tanking/development failed opportunity. The fact is this season went a different route. Short of belabouring the point further; we've accomplished much and can anticipate more. Doubling back to get even more diverts our focus.
    I really don't think this has anything to do with rebuilding or tanking. Development needs to always be on the radar, even if we are winning 60+ games per year, we still need to keep developing, so I don't see how that topic diverts our focus.

    If the season long goal was to make the playoffs, then mission accomplished. No reason to try and go for broke by becoming over-reliant on players that are on their way out the door.

  19. #116
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I really don't think this has anything to do with rebuilding or tanking. Development needs to always be on the radar, even if we are winning 60+ games per year, we still need to keep developing, so I don't see how that topic diverts our focus.

    If the season long goal was to make the playoffs, then mission accomplished. No reason to try and go for broke by becoming over-reliant on players that are on their way out the door.
    Fair points.

    Rentals getting minutes over longterm players is less than ideal. But if the rentals get us into more meaningful contests; like the 3 'playoff atmosphere' games we've had against the Bulls, Nets, and Washington will the diminished minutes our long term players get be more meaningful? Like would the challenge of fending off 3 teams for third be more useful than heavier minutes as we descend to 6th? Supposing that JV and TR don't give us better chance to win by giving them additional minutes.

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