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Is the cost of 3rd place too high? A plea for 6th

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  • #16
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Draft is only a bonus, the main point is JV and Ross need to play crunch time minutes to develop and ultimately help this team.
    The other school of thought is that having Ross and Jonas experience the playoffs at all (even in a limited capacity) would serve them well for the future.

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    • #17
      Nilanka wrote: View Post
      The other school of thought is that having Ross and Jonas experience the playoffs at all (even in a limited capacity) would serve them well for the future.
      Which gets accomplished regardless of the seed. So why not double-up and get the extra development time?
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • #18
        Axel wrote: View Post
        Which gets accomplished regardless of the seed. So why not double-up and get the extra development time?
        I think the reality of the situation is that, at this point in the season, Casey is playing to win. After all, he might be unemployed next season. It's in his best interest to use these final 20 games to set his 9-man rotation in stone (baring injuries), and stick with it. Whether that rotation heavily relies on Ross and Jonas, only Casey knows for sure. But I would find it hard to believe that Casey's thinking deep enough to consider selling playoff seeding in exchange for development time.

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        • #19
          Nilanka wrote: View Post
          I think the reality of the situation is that, at this point in the season, Casey is playing to win. After all, he might be unemployed next season. It's in his best interest to use these final 20 games to set his 9-man rotation in stone (baring injuries), and stick with it. Whether that rotation heavily relies on Ross and Jonas, only Casey knows for sure. But I would find it hard to believe that Casey's thinking deep enough to consider selling playoff seeding in exchange for development time.
          Very true, Casey's situation hinders the amount of long-term thinking that would best serve this franchise, imo. If the option was given to Masai, what would he choose? What if Casey had a 3 year extension in place, would that change his position?

          Of course this is all hypothetical. It's not like Casey is going to read RR and say, "you're right, let's play JV and Ross more" ~ which would simultaneously make him the most awesome and worst coach ever.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • #20
            6th means we play Bulls in first round. Which means we watch 2nd round from home rather than at the ACC. I don't like 6th.

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            • #21
              Letter N wrote: View Post
              6th means we play Bulls in first round. Which means we watch 2nd round from home rather than at the ACC. I don't like 6th.
              Bulls aren't guaranteed 3rd. 3 games is all that separates these 4 teams with 20 games to go. Besides, Bulls without Deng and Rose are going to really struggle to score in a best of 7 series. Lowry vs Augustin for 7 games, I'll take my chances.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • #22
                First, I'm not entirely convinced that playing JV & Ross more minutes ahead of Hansborough/Hayes & Salmons/Fields/Novak would even result in more losses. DC has a short leash for young players (rightfully so, quite often) and prefers veterans he can rely on, but I have yet to see any of those veteran scrubs really have any positive impact on the ultimate outcome of any games (aside from Hansborough in short bursts). I've never had an issue with DC yanking the young players out after making a boneheaded play, but I completely disagree with them being left to rot on the bench for long stretches (or never getting back in). The vets often get winded playing extended minutes and the youngsters are rusty and out of the flow of the game if/when they do get back in, which I've often observed to have a double negative impact.

                Second, I completely agree with taking the long view for this team. The Raptors aren't winning the championship this season and likely have no shot at making it through the second round. Regardless of which team (Chicago, Brooklyn, Washington) they play or who has home-court advantage, I don't see the Raptors' chances of winning a 1st round series changing very much. Any series will be an entertaining, hard-fought series, with Toronto having a good chance of winning it. Many anti-tankers were arguing that this season should be all about getting playoff experience for the young players, which made sense. I'm lost as to why that goal is suddenly taking a backseat to winning the division? True experience is gained by being on the court in crunch time and in playoff games (or playoff like games down the stretch). Let the youngsters play & develop, while possibly improving draft positioning (even 3 spots could drastically improve the quality of player added to the core, or could enhance the value of the Raps' own pick for facilitating a trade up in the draft). Seems like a win-win to me, that would have minimal impact on playoff outcomes.

                Third, if this team is building for the future, playing the youngsters more in meaningful situations now could very well improve the team's chances for future success. JV & Ross are likely going to be key contributors for the Raptors for years to come, while it's unlikely any of those scrubs are going to be around longer than their contract (if that).
                Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Mar 11, 2014, 11:56 AM.

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                • #23
                  Playing Ross more minutes would not give the raptors a lower seed, though

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                  • #24
                    I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. JV and Ross are getting plenty of experience even if vetrans are favoured later in the game. As astutely pointed out by the wise Matty D in last night's broadcast, of all top teams in competition, I think the raps are the only one starting and featuring 2 second year players. These guys are still at the beginning of their development, not at the point where they are in peak regular season form and now need the playoff drive to push them on to better things. Home court in the playoffs, playing as low a seed as you can (although I admit that it is a bit murky now).....that will be the electric dynamic of the playoffs that those guys can enjoy and spend the rest of their development getting back to.

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                    • #25
                      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                      First, I'm not entirely convinced that playing JV & Ross more minutes ahead of Hansborough/Hayes & Salmons/Fields/Novak would even result in more losses. DC has a short leash for young players (rightfully so, quite often) and prefers veterans he can rely on, but I have yet to see any of those veteran scrubs really have any positive impact on the ultimate outcome of any games (aside from Hansborough in short bursts). I've never had an issue with DC yanking the young players out after making a boneheaded play, but I completely disagree with them being left to rot on the bench for long stretches (or never getting back in). The vets often get winded playing extended minutes and the youngsters are rusty and out of the flow of the game if/when they do get back in, which I've often observed to have a double negative impact.

                      Second, I completely agree with taking the long view for this team. The Raptors aren't winning the championship this season and likely have no shot at making it through the second round. Regardless of which team (Chicago, Brooklyn, Washington) they play or who has home-court advantage, I don't see the Raptors' chances of winning a 1st round series changing very much. Any series will be an entertaining, hard-fought series, with Toronto having a good chance of winning it. Many anti-tankers were arguing that this season should be all about getting playoff experience for the young players, which made sense. I'm lost as to why that goal is suddenly taking a backseat to winning the division? True experience is gained by being on the court in crunch time and in playoff games (or playoff like games down the stretch). Let the youngsters play & develop, while possibly improving draft positioning (even 3 spots could drastically improve the quality of player added to the core, or could enhance the value of the Raps' own pick for facilitating a trade up in the draft). Seems like a win-win to me, that would have minimal impact on playoff outcomes.

                      Third, if this team is building for the future, playing the youngsters more in meaningful situations now could very well improve the team's chances for future success. JV & Ross are likely going to be key contributors for the Raptors for years to come, while it's unlikely any of those scrubs are going to be around longer than their contract (if that).
                      This is exactly the train of thought that led to me OP.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                      • #26
                        Jclaw wrote: View Post
                        I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. JV and Ross are getting plenty of experience even if vetrans are favoured later in the game. As astutely pointed out by the wise Matty D in last night's broadcast, of all top teams in competition, I think the raps are the only one starting and featuring 2 second year players. These guys are still at the beginning of their development, not at the point where they are in peak regular season form and now need the playoff drive to push them on to better things. Home court in the playoffs, playing as low a seed as you can (although I admit that it is a bit murky now).....that will be the electric dynamic of the playoffs that those guys can enjoy and spend the rest of their development getting back to.
                        Crunch time minutes are different than other minutes in much the same way, playoff games are different than regular season. A young guy has to learn how to succeed in the pressure. Giving these valuable minutes to Salmons & Hayes means that Ross and JV aren't getting that experience.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                        • #27
                          We're 8 games above .500 with 20 games left and tanking thread appears. Only raptor fans I tell you. Our we just so use to losing we enjoy it.

                          The days of playing just cause your young and have "potential" is over in raptor land. Do you guys want JV to play so badly that your willing to have him pick up bad defensive tendencies like DD and Barney did? It's not easy to get out of those. Example DeMar DeRozan. He will only play D when his going on O. Thank you Triano.


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                          @Chr1st1anL

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                          • #28
                            Playing opportunities are important but I think there's also merit to the idea that you have to earn what you get. If Jonas was collecting DNPs, getting garbage minutes or sitting in the DLeague, fair enough. But he's getting pretty good minutes, starting, getting to play the best players in the league.

                            Jonas is already getting 20 to 30 minutes almost every night. Maybe giving him 5 or 10 more would help him. Or maybe it wouldn't. Maybe if he's given minutes of regardless how he plays, it would provoke complacency, form bad habbits and hurt him long term. Or maybe it would hurt the team chemistry. If Hansbrough is benched despite playing better that night, and that happens time and time again, I could easily see it backfiring.

                            Coaches make lots of mistakes. That said, they still know more about basketball and player development than any of us. So I think it's ok to give them the benefit of the doubt in a case like this.

                            When it comes to the draft picks argument, I don't think the difference between no.17 and no.20 is all that big. Yes, there are a few nice names picked at no.17 but that looks pretty accidental. Historically, no.17, 21, 24 look really strong, multiple all stars drafted there. Picks no. 11, 12, 15, 18, 19, 20 look much worse. But that doesn't mean that we'd trade a no.11 or 12 pick for no.17 or 24, right. Draft is always a bit of a crapshoot, and some luck + a good GM can go a long way in making a low pick look awesome.
                            Obviously, it's nicer to have no.17 compared to no.20 but I wouldn't at all consider tanking for that and losing homecourt advantage. At all.

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                            • #29
                              If the team is dropping in the standings for the sake of development, why don't we just get a coach who will have the good sense to play them consistent minutes?
                              Twitter - @thekid_it

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                              • #30
                                Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                                We're 8 games above .500 with 20 games left and tanking thread appears. Only raptor fans I tell you. Our we just so use to losing we enjoy it.

                                The days of playing just cause your young and have "potential" is over in raptor land. Do you guys want JV to play so badly that your willing to have him pick up bad defensive tendencies like DD and Barney did? It's not easy to get out of those. Example DeMar DeRozan. He will only play D when his going on O. Thank you Triano.


                                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                                1. This isn't about tanking, its about player development within a set of parameters (top 6 finish) to achieve long term goals.
                                2. How does JV learn by sitting for extended periods? It's not like there's an assistant sitting with him, discussing what is happening on the court and how to read the play then react appropriately. He's sitting there, internalizing on his own. If he makes a mistake, you can sub him out, discuss it, then send him back in there.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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