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Thread: KD what the Raptors need: Kelly

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    OKC has a great chance to win it this year. They are my prediction to come out of the West.

    Harden trade is done. What they have left is still enough to take them back to the Finals, although it will be a tough road.

    As for this Kelly article, its wild speculation and the chances of it having are non-existent. I though it was D. Smith who wrote this so I was going to get on his blog this morning and question how he could ever suggest something this dumb and unlikely and if it is truly Masai's and Lieweke's game plan we are all in big trouble, but then saw it was Kelly and am now not surprised at all.

    Not happening here.
    Yes, Kelly's article is all speculation.

    However, I'm not sure how out of sync it really is.

    Heck, when I heard TFC was targetting Forlan, and then actually went and picked up Bradley and Defoe, I became a Lieweke believer. Hell, who would have thought such a thing was possible. Then, to bring DeRosario back.....brilliant. Again, what the heck can't Tim do?

    Apparently Tim used Drake extensively to lure Dafoe, and even had Lebron chat with Jermaine's mother. Now, I don't think Lebron will be chatting with KD's mother about Toronto, but I'm sure Kev be getting some VP invites and back-stage passes to Drake affairs.

    Now, KD is christian and about as clean as they come NBA-wise. Maybe that's why Landry is still around (that, and of course, his untradeable contract) Still, I'm sure Tim will exploit any and every opportunity to lure a premier star like KD, that's just Tim's way. Why not play the "Toronto is a great home for people of faith" card.

    FInally, certain things get burned into someone's psyche when they are young. I still can't help but think of the 80's Oilers when I see and Edmonton jersey. It's taken years of ineptitude to squander the sheen of greatness that once surrounded that organisation. KD was an impressionalbe kid when vinsanity was full swing. I'm sure he still harbours some latent excitement about Toronto from those days. If Tim can re-kindle that, get Kevin to see that we have a winning contender...just insert superstar to beat Miami, stoke a vision of championship glory in Toronto.....then I don't see it as a stretch to get KD in 2016.

    Tim's the guy to do it, and Masai is the guy to make it happen....

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Pele wrote: View Post
    Yes, Kelly's article is all speculation.

    However, I'm not sure how out of sync it really is.

    Heck, when I heard TFC was targetting Forlan, and then actually went and picked up Bradley and Defoe, I became a Lieweke believer. Hell, who would have thought such a thing was possible. Then, to bring DeRosario back.....brilliant. Again, what the heck can't Tim do?

    Apparently Tim used Drake extensively to lure Dafoe, and even had Lebron chat with Jermaine's mother. Now, I don't think Lebron will be chatting with KD's mother about Toronto, but I'm sure Kev be getting some VP invites and back-stage passes to Drake affairs.

    Now, KD is christian and about as clean as they come NBA-wise. Maybe that's why Landry is still around (that, and of course, his untradeable contract) Still, I'm sure Tim will exploit any and every opportunity to lure a premier star like KD, that's just Tim's way. Why not play the "Toronto is a great home for people of faith" card.

    FInally, certain things get burned into someone's psyche when they are young. I still can't help but think of the 80's Oilers when I see and Edmonton jersey. It's taken years of ineptitude to squander the sheen of greatness that once surrounded that organisation. KD was an impressionalbe kid when vinsanity was full swing. I'm sure he still harbours some latent excitement about Toronto from those days. If Tim can re-kindle that, get Kevin to see that we have a winning contender...just insert superstar to beat Miami, stoke a vision of championship glory in Toronto.....then I don't see it as a stretch to get KD in 2016.

    Tim's the guy to do it, and Masai is the guy to make it happen....
    Don't forget Bobby Webster, salary cap expert. He was on NBA team during CBA negotiations. This guy will make sure the dollars and cents work to whatever Ujiri or Tim have planned or are preparing to be ready for.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Don't forget Bobby Webster, salary cap expert. He was on NBA team during CBA negotiations. This guy will make sure the dollars and cents work to whatever Ujiri or Tim have planned or are preparing to be ready for.
    Nice, definitely will take creative cap tweaking.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    The crazy thing about this plan is that it's actually realistic. No, not realistic that we should expect to get kd. Realistic in the planning sense. If we're trying to get kd, we'd keep lowry, develop the sophomores, keep derozan and aim for cap space in 2016. If we weren't trying to get kd, we'd keep lowry, develop the sophomores...etc. It's not like we'd be the pre Decision Knicks who gutted their whole roster and then had to fill it with pieces when they were unsuccessful. I like where this is going.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    As for this Kelly article, its wild speculation and the chances of it having are non-existent. I though it was D. Smith who wrote this so I was going to get on his blog this morning and question how he could ever suggest something this dumb and unlikely and if it is truly Masai's and Lieweke's game plan we are all in big trouble, but then saw it was Kelly and am now not surprised at all.
    Agreed, if your game plan is to win the lottery then you don't actually have a game plan.
    See, I don't think management in Toronto views it as "winning the lottery" or as unlikely. I do think they are going to take a serious run at Durant (or someone like him). Leiweke has made it very clear he wants stars on his teams and he wants to win.

    Will it happen? I have no idea but I am not going to discount Leiweke and this management team. Not after what happened with TFC.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    You hear about Washington believing in the same thing.. how Durant will want to come back "home".. and how they wondered if Wall would try to recruit him to play for the Wizards.

    Also can't rule out NY or Brooklyn as potential favourites as well. NY's books are cleared in 2016 and they have Phil Jackson. Brooklyn's books are cleared and they have a Russian mogul. Durant will be coveted and the richest teams will have cap space. Going to be very difficult for TL/Toronto to win the pitch.. but I'm sure they will do everything to try and win it.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    You hear about Washington believing in the same thing.. how Durant will want to come back "home".. and how they wondered if Wall would try to recruit him to play for the Wizards.

    Also can't rule out NY or Brooklyn as potential favourites as well. NY's books are cleared in 2016 and they have Phil Jackson. Brooklyn's books are cleared and they have a Russian mogul. Durant will be coveted and the richest teams will have cap space. Going to be very difficult for TL/Toronto to win the pitch.. but I'm sure they will do everything to try and win it.
    That's ok. KD will basically have tons of options and he'll dictate where he goes. Still pretty much goes without saying that the Raps should be aiming for this kind of move, and 2016 seems like the logical time to try, at least in terms of free agency.

    Sometimes we overlook other possibilities too because of the promise of the perfect scenario. Some other notable free agents in 2016....Love, Horford, David Lee, Ryan Anderson, Nic Batum....

    Those are interesting names, and all of them could fit quite well with the Raps current core. Though personally I'd avoid Lee because he's already 30 and he's not very good defensively...But KD, Love, Anderson and Batum are all the same age. And while Horford is a bit older(he'll be 30), he'd likely be cheaper than KD or Love, and could be the kind of veteran leader this team needs.

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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    Agreed, if your game plan is to win the lottery then you don't actually have a game plan.
    Who has a game plan to win the lottery? Typically most GM's might have a goal to be in the lottery and as high as possible but having your goal at be the #1 pick is erroneous because it's a lottery.

    That being said targeting Durrant in 2 years is even a lower odd proposition than trying to get #1

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    Quote Shantz wrote: View Post
    Why should we be in for "big trouble" if Ujiri and Lieweke are planning on making a run at Durant?

    I'll admit that Kelly laid it on a little thick in the article...but to have a management team that is actually dreaming about adding one of the top players in the world is an excellent thing! If that was their only plan, then we have some issues to work out. But we are certainly not in deep trouble to have a front office that is strategically working towards huge goals.

    If they fail, they fail. But even if there is a 1% chance that Durant could be lured to Toronto, the only failure would be in not trying to make it happen. That would be where "big trouble" would happen.
    The 'big trouble' comes from the argument that KD would compliment the current roster and make them a contender. The assumption that they are keeping the roster intact and trying to build something. assuming that in 2 years that the team will be attractive enough to bring in KD is ludicrous. This team should worry about trying to get back to the playoffs next year (which is no guarantee at all) before thinking this core group of players is going to entice KD to come here, because it's not

    I know this season has been exciting for many fans based on the teams play, but when you go through the players on this team and study the roster, I'm shocked most think this is a team with a bright future. This is 2007 over again and not even as good of a version of that team.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Who has a game plan to win the lottery? Typically most GM's might have a goal to be in the lottery and as high as possible but having your goal at be the #1 pick is erroneous because it's a lottery.

    That being said targeting Durrant in 2 years is even a lower odd proposition than trying to get #1
    No, it isn't necessarily. Fact is we have no clue what odds we'd have in such a chase. You're just taking the most pessimistic view possible. First we have no clue if he'll leave, and second we have no clue what situation he'll be looking for. In all likelihood he'll be looking for a team ready to contend (where he'd be the missing piece), and an organization willing to do whatever it takes to have that opportunity. Toronto could easily fit that description, and then it's a matter of beating out your competitors.

    Making sure you have capspace that year doesn't limit your options either. There are other very good possibilities. And really, it's a fairly easy plan for Toronto to make in terms of having cap flexibility that summer anyway.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Don't forget Bobby Webster, salary cap expert. He was on NBA team during CBA negotiations. This guy will make sure the dollars and cents work to whatever Ujiri or Tim have planned or are preparing to be ready for.
    So the reasons for optimism is that they were able to bring in players to TFC, Drake is an ambassador (why would any player come to Toronto because Drake is here?lol), KD's a Christian (I'm a Christian, we are everywhere across the globe) and KD's fondness for Carter back in the days? If he wanted to play with Vince he still can.

    No disrespect but I don't think any of those reasons are getting KD to come to Toronto. This article is just a piece Kelly wrote to spark reader interest. Even the less than 50/50 odds of it happening he declares, is pure fiction.

  17. #32
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    The advantages we have over Brooklyn and New York is that the only way they'll have salary flexibility is by gutting the current roster. It's a risky situation for a player in his prime championship years to go into a situation where he does not know that the parts around him will make a contender. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

    Toronto has an opportunity to establish an almost-contender core in the next couple years. If they can do so without a star at SF, it should be much easier to sell KD on the fact that if he comes here, it'll add up to winning, as opposed to a team that's in the process of gutting their roster and using you as the centerpiece of a rebuild.

    I also think it's more likely that KD will leave via a sign-and-trade. New York and Brooklyn have gutted their long-term assets so much that they'll be in a nearly impossible spot for offering decent sign-and-trade compensation, unless they can rebuild their prospect/draft base in the next couple years.

    Given that we'll add first-rounders this year and next, plus two first-rounders in 2016, and all of our own first-rounders after that, we can offer a package similar to what Cleveland got for James. (Which, let's be honest, isn't fair return for KD, but you're never going to get fair return for KD.)

    Wizards will be in a similar position to us: young, established core, lots of cap space, decent future assets. They also have the advantage of being able to offer OKC a young, talented, replacement SF in Porter. They'll need to find complimentary big-men to fill out their roster though (depending on whether they keep Nene in 2016).
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Who has a game plan to win the lottery? Typically most GM's might have a goal to be in the lottery and as high as possible but having your goal at be the #1 pick is erroneous because it's a lottery.

    That being said targeting Durrant in 2 years is even a lower odd proposition than trying to get #1
    I've never really understood that opinion. Seems to me he could already have his mind made up? Maybe he's said that if management doesn't back the team and spend he'll leave? Maybe he's said if they don't win a championship he's gone?

    Maybe... just maybe, he already knows deep in his heart that Toronto is the only place he'll truly ever want to sign...

    But my point still stands, only knows what he wants. The odds are that he doesn't have a clue what he'll want to do in 2 years, except of course winning rings and a trophy

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    I think if all the ducks line up and we have the cap space we'll get a good look and be in the conversation. Why wouldn't we be? We'll have his old alumni in Vasquez, his idol in Carter (if signed for his going away party), his old mentor Masai recruiting him along with a good young core who made the playoffs in consecutive years, and of course most importantly the money! Sure he might choose to stay put or go to a more lucrative market but I think we'll have an amazing pitch that will at least put us on the short list.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    No, it isn't necessarily. Fact is we have no clue what odds we'd have in such a chase. You're just taking the most pessimistic view possible. First we have no clue if he'll leave, and second we have no clue what situation he'll be looking for. In all likelihood he'll be looking for a team ready to contend (where he'd be the missing piece), and an organization willing to do whatever it takes to have that opportunity. Toronto could easily fit that description, and then it's a matter of beating out your competitors.

    Making sure you have capspace that year doesn't limit your options either. There are other very good possibilities. And really, it's a fairly easy plan for Toronto to make in terms of having cap flexibility that summer anyway.
    I'm not taking a pessimistic view. I'm saying with the utmost confidence that Durrant will not come here in 2 years.

    Cap space and all those other things you've mentioned is another debate. I'm not debating the positives of having cap space in a year with good free agents. I'm furiously debating the chances of him coming to the Raps in 2 years like Kelly suggested. I think it is a fictional piece written with no real suggestion to believe it could happen.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    See, I don't think management in Toronto views it as "winning the lottery" or as unlikely. I do think they are going to take a serious run at Durant (or someone like him). Leiweke has made it very clear he wants stars on his teams and he wants to win.

    Will it happen? I have no idea but I am not going to discount Leiweke and this management team. Not after what happened with TFC.
    How can you equate what happened with TFC to what will happen with the Raps?

    Different sports, different players.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    I'm not taking a pessimistic view. I'm saying with the utmost confidence that Durrant will not come here in 2 years.

    Cap space and all those other things you've mentioned is another debate. I'm not debating the positives of having cap space in a year with good free agents. I'm furiously debating the chances of him coming to the Raps in 2 years like Kelly suggested. I think it is a fictional piece written with no real suggestion to believe it could happen.
    Doesn't mean you don't give it a shot.

    You also say in another post that this team is basically nothing close to appealing, but I don't think that's true either.

    The 'big trouble' comes from the argument that KD would compliment the current roster and make them a contender. The assumption that they are keeping the roster intact and trying to build something. assuming that in 2 years that the team will be attractive enough to bring in KD is ludicrous. This team should worry about trying to get back to the playoffs next year (which is no guarantee at all) before thinking this core group of players is going to entice KD to come here, because it's not
    This is kind of ridiculous. Of course the team has to maintain some high level of performance, but even if they are just a 5-8 playoff seed in the following years...well they're that without Durant. If they're a 40-45 win team, and Lowry and DeMar maintain some similar level of performance, while Jonas and Ross keep improving, that's a very appealing core if you ask me. And not just to KD, but basically for any free agent. You add KD to a 45 win team (give or take), and they become a contender.

    Look at OKC's roster? They have serious question marks pretty much everywhere other than KD and Ibaka. Westbrook has become a question mark because of injury concerns, and their "depth" is an odd mix of old and young talent, none of whom really relieve the insane amount of weight on KD's shoulders. Add to that that so far their ownership has shown a strong unwillingness to pay tax, and they are making it hard to really improve. If they didn't have KD, would they even be in the playoffs?

    I definitely think it's possible KD could leave OKC, and then it's a total unknown what he'll be looking for. I do think he'll want to go somewhere with an established core with some proven amount of success. I don't think he'll be too eager to go to possibly gutted rosters in places like NYK or LAL and have to hope they build quickly. And I don't think he cares enough about the flashy markets either. I think octothorp's post is bang on:

    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    The advantages we have over Brooklyn and New York is that the only way they'll have salary flexibility is by gutting the current roster. It's a risky situation for a player in his prime championship years to go into a situation where he does not know that the parts around him will make a contender. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

    Toronto has an opportunity to establish an almost-contender core in the next couple years. If they can do so without a star at SF, it should be much easier to sell KD on the fact that if he comes here, it'll add up to winning, as opposed to a team that's in the process of gutting their roster and using you as the centerpiece of a rebuild.

    I also think it's more likely that KD will leave via a sign-and-trade. New York and Brooklyn have gutted their long-term assets so much that they'll be in a nearly impossible spot for offering decent sign-and-trade compensation, unless they can rebuild their prospect/draft base in the next couple years.

    Given that we'll add first-rounders this year and next, plus two first-rounders in 2016, and all of our own first-rounders after that, we can offer a package similar to what Cleveland got for James. (Which, let's be honest, isn't fair return for KD, but you're never going to get fair return for KD.)

    Wizards will be in a similar position to us: young, established core, lots of cap space, decent future assets. They also have the advantage of being able to offer OKC a young, talented, replacement SF in Porter. They'll need to find complimentary big-men to fill out their roster though (depending on whether they keep Nene in 2016).
    And I'd add that in some ways we can offer better than Washington. Porter has not done anything to suggest he's a keeper talent in the NBA. Toronto can possibly offer DeMar or Ross in any S&T, or if OKC just want money and picks, can also offer that without compromising the core they build up to that point. Washington definitely has question marks, especially up front, where even if they keep Gortat and Nene, those guys will be heading into 32 and 34 years old at the start of the 2016 season.

    Situation-wise, Toronto could easily be one of the most appealing spots. And I tend to agree that the New York teams, or LAL are going to be unappealing for an in-his-prime star who likely will want minimal risk in a new situation, and not at all want to wait for a team to be built from scratch.

    And I'm sure there are teams who will get in the hunt that we can't really foresee. But they will have to be able to offer a solid core that's already had some success, that is pretty young so that they have a multi-year window, and solid management with ownership willing to spend....at minimum. Right now Toronto is on track to offer all that.

    Kelly's article may be idle speculation, but that doesn't mean it has no rational foundation to it.

  23. #38
    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    The 'big trouble' comes from the argument that KD would compliment the current roster and make them a contender. The assumption that they are keeping the roster intact and trying to build something. assuming that in 2 years that the team will be attractive enough to bring in KD is ludicrous. This team should worry about trying to get back to the playoffs next year (which is no guarantee at all) before thinking this core group of players is going to entice KD to come here, because it's not

    I know this season has been exciting for many fans based on the teams play, but when you go through the players on this team and study the roster, I'm shocked most think this is a team with a bright future. This is 2007 over again and not even as good of a version of that team.


    Whoa! That may just be for another thread. High contentious point of view..

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    Sorry @sleepz, but your attitude just strikes me as typical Toronto/Canada inferiority complex driven.

    The reason people cite KD's apparent fondness of Toronto is that it already helps clear that hurdle. It seems he doesn't view Toronto as an inferior city or market.

    On top of this, Leiweke and Ujiri made one of, if not the top goal of management to shake that stigma and convince people that Toronto is a top market in the sports world. Sure it may never be NY or LA, but there's no real reason it can't compete with anyone else. Having Leiweke especially is a huge factor. Dude is a huge player in the sports world.

    Doesn't mean they'll be successful, but it's the first time upper management is being run with this aggressive, proactive attitude to make this a destination city. That has to count for something and can't just be summarily dismissed.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    How can you equate what happened with TFC to what will happen with the Raps?

    Different sports, different players.
    Let me rephrase: I don't think this ownership group and management team think like you do. I don't think they believe it's a long shot to bring in a superstar to Toronto. I think they are going to move heaven and earth to try and make it happen. Will it be successful? Not a clue. But you cannot dismiss the idea out of hand.

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