KD what the Raptors need: Kelly

[sleepz]

Don't forget Bobby Webster, salary cap expert. He was on NBA team during CBA negotiations. This guy will make sure the dollars and cents work to whatever Ujiri or Tim have planned or are preparing to be ready for.

So the reasons for optimism is that they were able to bring in players to TFC, Drake is an ambassador (why would any player come to Toronto because Drake is here?lol), KD's a Christian (I'm a Christian, we are everywhere across the globe) and KD's fondness for Carter back in the days? If he wanted to play with Vince he still can.

No disrespect but I don't think any of those reasons are getting KD to come to Toronto. This article is just a piece Kelly wrote to spark reader interest. Even the less than 50/50 odds of it happening he declares, is pure fiction.

[octothorp]

The advantages we have over Brooklyn and New York is that the only way they'll have salary flexibility is by gutting the current roster. It's a risky situation for a player in his prime championship years to go into a situation where he does not know that the parts around him will make a contender. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Toronto has an opportunity to establish an almost-contender core in the next couple years. If they can do so without a star at SF, it should be much easier to sell KD on the fact that if he comes here, it'll add up to winning, as opposed to a team that's in the process of gutting their roster and using you as the centerpiece of a rebuild.

I also think it's more likely that KD will leave via a sign-and-trade. New York and Brooklyn have gutted their long-term assets so much that they'll be in a nearly impossible spot for offering decent sign-and-trade compensation, unless they can rebuild their prospect/draft base in the next couple years.

Given that we'll add first-rounders this year and next, plus two first-rounders in 2016, and all of our own first-rounders after that, we can offer a package similar to what Cleveland got for James. (Which, let's be honest, isn't fair return for KD, but you're never going to get fair return for KD.)

Wizards will be in a similar position to us: young, established core, lots of cap space, decent future assets. They also have the advantage of being able to offer OKC a young, talented, replacement SF in Porter. They'll need to find complimentary big-men to fill out their roster though (depending on whether they keep Nene in 2016).

[Bandit]

Who has a game plan to win the lottery? Typically most GM's might have a goal to be in the lottery and as high as possible but having your goal at be the #1 pick is erroneous because it's a lottery.

That being said targeting Durrant in 2 years is even a lower odd proposition than trying to get #1

I've never really understood that opinion. Seems to me he could already have his mind made up? Maybe he's said that if management doesn't back the team and spend he'll leave? Maybe he's said if they don't win a championship he's gone?

Maybe... just maybe, he already knows deep in his heart that Toronto is the only place he'll truly ever want to sign...

But my point still stands, only knows what he wants. The odds are that he doesn't have a clue what he'll want to do in 2 years, except of course winning rings and a trophy

[Raps76]

I think if all the ducks line up and we have the cap space we'll get a good look and be in the conversation. Why wouldn't we be? We'll have his old alumni in Vasquez, his idol in Carter (if signed for his going away party), his old mentor Masai recruiting him along with a good young core who made the playoffs in consecutive years, and of course most importantly the money! Sure he might choose to stay put or go to a more lucrative market but I think we'll have an amazing pitch that will at least put us on the short list.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[sleepz]

No, it isn't necessarily. Fact is we have no clue what odds we'd have in such a chase. You're just taking the most pessimistic view possible. First we have no clue if he'll leave, and second we have no clue what situation he'll be looking for. In all likelihood he'll be looking for a team ready to contend (where he'd be the missing piece), and an organization willing to do whatever it takes to have that opportunity. Toronto could easily fit that description, and then it's a matter of beating out your competitors.

Making sure you have capspace that year doesn't limit your options either. There are other very good possibilities. And really, it's a fairly easy plan for Toronto to make in terms of having cap flexibility that summer anyway.

I'm not taking a pessimistic view. I'm saying with the utmost confidence that Durrant will not come here in 2 years.

Cap space and all those other things you've mentioned is another debate. I'm not debating the positives of having cap space in a year with good free agents. I'm furiously debating the chances of him coming to the Raps in 2 years like Kelly suggested. I think it is a fictional piece written with no real suggestion to believe it could happen.

[sleepz]

See, I don't think management in Toronto views it as "winning the lottery" or as unlikely. I do think they are going to take a serious run at Durant (or someone like him). Leiweke has made it very clear he wants stars on his teams and he wants to win.

Will it happen? I have no idea but I am not going to discount Leiweke and this management team. Not after what happened with TFC.

How can you equate what happened with TFC to what will happen with the Raps?

Different sports, different players.

[white men can't jump]

I'm not taking a pessimistic view. I'm saying with the utmost confidence that Durrant will not come here in 2 years.

Cap space and all those other things you've mentioned is another debate. I'm not debating the positives of having cap space in a year with good free agents. I'm furiously debating the chances of him coming to the Raps in 2 years like Kelly suggested. I think it is a fictional piece written with no real suggestion to believe it could happen.

Doesn't mean you don't give it a shot.

You also say in another post that this team is basically nothing close to appealing, but I don't think that's true either.

The 'big trouble' comes from the argument that KD would compliment the current roster and make them a contender. The assumption that they are keeping the roster intact and trying to build something. assuming that in 2 years that the team will be attractive enough to bring in KD is ludicrous. This team should worry about trying to get back to the playoffs next year (which is no guarantee at all) before thinking this core group of players is going to entice KD to come here, because it's not

This is kind of ridiculous. Of course the team has to maintain some high level of performance, but even if they are just a 5-8 playoff seed in the following years...well they're that without Durant. If they're a 40-45 win team, and Lowry and DeMar maintain some similar level of performance, while Jonas and Ross keep improving, that's a very appealing core if you ask me. And not just to KD, but basically for any free agent. You add KD to a 45 win team (give or take), and they become a contender.

Look at OKC's roster? They have serious question marks pretty much everywhere other than KD and Ibaka. Westbrook has become a question mark because of injury concerns, and their "depth" is an odd mix of old and young talent, none of whom really relieve the insane amount of weight on KD's shoulders. Add to that that so far their ownership has shown a strong unwillingness to pay tax, and they are making it hard to really improve. If they didn't have KD, would they even be in the playoffs?

I definitely think it's possible KD could leave OKC, and then it's a total unknown what he'll be looking for. I do think he'll want to go somewhere with an established core with some proven amount of success. I don't think he'll be too eager to go to possibly gutted rosters in places like NYK or LAL and have to hope they build quickly. And I don't think he cares enough about the flashy markets either. I think octothorp's post is bang on:

The advantages we have over Brooklyn and New York is that the only way they'll have salary flexibility is by gutting the current roster. It's a risky situation for a player in his prime championship years to go into a situation where he does not know that the parts around him will make a contender. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Toronto has an opportunity to establish an almost-contender core in the next couple years. If they can do so without a star at SF, it should be much easier to sell KD on the fact that if he comes here, it'll add up to winning, as opposed to a team that's in the process of gutting their roster and using you as the centerpiece of a rebuild.

I also think it's more likely that KD will leave via a sign-and-trade. New York and Brooklyn have gutted their long-term assets so much that they'll be in a nearly impossible spot for offering decent sign-and-trade compensation, unless they can rebuild their prospect/draft base in the next couple years.

Given that we'll add first-rounders this year and next, plus two first-rounders in 2016, and all of our own first-rounders after that, we can offer a package similar to what Cleveland got for James. (Which, let's be honest, isn't fair return for KD, but you're never going to get fair return for KD.)

Wizards will be in a similar position to us: young, established core, lots of cap space, decent future assets. They also have the advantage of being able to offer OKC a young, talented, replacement SF in Porter. They'll need to find complimentary big-men to fill out their roster though (depending on whether they keep Nene in 2016).

And I'd add that in some ways we can offer better than Washington. Porter has not done anything to suggest he's a keeper talent in the NBA. Toronto can possibly offer DeMar or Ross in any S&T, or if OKC just want money and picks, can also offer that without compromising the core they build up to that point. Washington definitely has question marks, especially up front, where even if they keep Gortat and Nene, those guys will be heading into 32 and 34 years old at the start of the 2016 season.

Situation-wise, Toronto could easily be one of the most appealing spots. And I tend to agree that the New York teams, or LAL are going to be unappealing for an in-his-prime star who likely will want minimal risk in a new situation, and not at all want to wait for a team to be built from scratch.

And I'm sure there are teams who will get in the hunt that we can't really foresee. But they will have to be able to offer a solid core that's already had some success, that is pretty young so that they have a multi-year window, and solid management with ownership willing to spend....at minimum. Right now Toronto is on track to offer all that.

Kelly's article may be idle speculation, but that doesn't mean it has no rational foundation to it.

[Pele]

The 'big trouble' comes from the argument that KD would compliment the current roster and make them a contender. The assumption that they are keeping the roster intact and trying to build something. assuming that in 2 years that the team will be attractive enough to bring in KD is ludicrous. This team should worry about trying to get back to the playoffs next year (which is no guarantee at all) before thinking this core group of players is going to entice KD to come here, because it's not

I know this season has been exciting for many fans based on the teams play, but when you go through the players on this team and study the roster, I'm shocked most think this is a team with a bright future. This is 2007 over again and not even as good of a version of that team.

Whoa! That may just be for another thread. High contentious point of view..

[white men can't jump]

Sorry @sleepz, but your attitude just strikes me as typical Toronto/Canada inferiority complex driven.

The reason people cite KD's apparent fondness of Toronto is that it already helps clear that hurdle. It seems he doesn't view Toronto as an inferior city or market.

On top of this, Leiweke and Ujiri made one of, if not the top goal of management to shake that stigma and convince people that Toronto is a top market in the sports world. Sure it may never be NY or LA, but there's no real reason it can't compete with anyone else. Having Leiweke especially is a huge factor. Dude is a huge player in the sports world.

Doesn't mean they'll be successful, but it's the first time upper management is being run with this aggressive, proactive attitude to make this a destination city. That has to count for something and can't just be summarily dismissed.

[slaw]

How can you equate what happened with TFC to what will happen with the Raps?

Different sports, different players.

Let me rephrase: I don't think this ownership group and management team think like you do. I don't think they believe it's a long shot to bring in a superstar to Toronto. I think they are going to move heaven and earth to try and make it happen. Will it be successful? Not a clue. But you cannot dismiss the idea out of hand.

[octothorp]

I've said it before, but building a contender in the NBA is a game of extremely long odds.

Because of this, no strategy should be dismissed because it almost certainly won't happen. If it's even a 1% chance, that's enough that it bears discussion. Odds of acquiring a superstar with a late-first draft pick? Unlikely. Odds of one of our current guys becoming a superstar? Unlikely. Odds of acquiring a superstar via free agency? Unlikely. Odds of winning a championship without a superstar? Unlikely. Are the odds of acquiring KD less likely than any of the other scenarios here? And how can we best maximize our odds by keeping as many of the above scenarios as possible in play?

So if we don't talk about the unlikely scenarios, then we can hang our heads that there's no easy route, or simply not talk about any long-term strategies. But I'd rather see discussions like this about long-term strategies, critical evaluations of just how likely and unlikely they are, and what can be done to increase those odds, even minutely.

[sleepz]

Doesn't mean you don't give it a shot.

You also say in another post that this team is basically nothing close to appealing, but I don't think that's true either.



This is kind of ridiculous. Of course the team has to maintain some high level of performance, but even if they are just a 5-8 playoff seed in the following years...well they're that without Durant. If they're a 40-45 win team, and Lowry and DeMar maintain some similar level of performance, while Jonas and Ross keep improving, that's a very appealing core if you ask me. And not just to KD, but basically for any free agent. You add KD to a 45 win team (give or take), and they become a contender.

Look at OKC's roster? They have serious question marks pretty much everywhere other than KD and Ibaka. Westbrook has become a question mark because of injury concerns, and their "depth" is an odd mix of old and young talent, none of whom really relieve the insane amount of weight on KD's shoulders. Add to that that so far their ownership has shown a strong unwillingness to pay tax, and they are making it hard to really improve. If they didn't have KD, would they even be in the playoffs?

I definitely think it's possible KD could leave OKC, and then it's a total unknown what he'll be looking for. I do think he'll want to go somewhere with an established core with some proven amount of success. I don't think he'll be too eager to go to possibly gutted rosters in places like NYK or LAL and have to hope they build quickly. And I don't think he cares enough about the flashy markets either. I think octothorp's post is bang on:



And I'd add that in some ways we can offer better than Washington. Porter has not done anything to suggest he's a keeper talent in the NBA. Toronto can possibly offer DeMar or Ross in any S&T, or if OKC just want money and picks, can also offer that without compromising the core they build up to that point. Washington definitely has question marks, especially up front, where even if they keep Gortat and Nene, those guys will be heading into 32 and 34 years old at the start of the 2016 season.

Situation-wise, Toronto could easily be one of the most appealing spots. And I tend to agree that the New York teams, or LAL are going to be unappealing for an in-his-prime star who likely will want minimal risk in a new situation, and not at all want to wait for a team to be built from scratch.

And I'm sure there are teams who will get in the hunt that we can't really foresee. But they will have to be able to offer a solid core that's already had some success, that is pretty young so that they have a multi-year window, and solid management with ownership willing to spend....at minimum. Right now Toronto is on track to offer all that.

Kelly's article may be idle speculation, but that doesn't mean it has no rational foundation to it.

Why is the Raps roster so appealing and OKC's isn't? OKC has another superstar in Westbrook. A player KD has played with and went to a Finals with already. OKC is challenging for top spot in the West, have had Westbrook out for half the year and we are wondering who's roster is in better shape? Have we forgotten about Ibaka as well? Come on man.

[sleepz]

Sorry @sleepz, but your attitude just strikes me as typical Toronto/Canada inferiority complex driven.

The reason people cite KD's apparent fondness of Toronto is that it already helps clear that hurdle. It seems he doesn't view Toronto as an inferior city or market.

On top of this, Leiweke and Ujiri made one of, if not the top goal of management to shake that stigma and convince people that Toronto is a top market in the sports world. Sure it may never be NY or LA, but there's no real reason it can't compete with anyone else. Having Leiweke especially is a huge factor. Dude is a huge player in the sports world.

Doesn't mean they'll be successful, but it's the first time upper management is being run with this aggressive, proactive attitude to make this a destination city. That has to count for something and can't just be summarily dismissed.

Inferiority complex? Not at all. You can attract players to play for you when your team is good and you are a consistent winner.

People cite Durrant's 'fondness' for Toronto because he was a Raptors fan when he was a kid, because they had Vince. That's all this 'fondness' is based upon, nothing else.

If the Raps are a good team of course you can attract top flight players. This is the same principle for almost any sport. That doesn't mean I feel like players won't come to Toronto, because that's not what I think at all. I think players flock to 'winning'.

The difference between us is you probably think the team and roster is ascending and has potential. I tend to think this roster has hit their high point and they are only decent this year because of good team chemistry and a historically bad conference. You typically need two stars to be a contender in this league and imho, Durrant coming to Toronto would still only be one star. They have no other significant players at this time, in my books. I don't see Durrant leaving OKC playing with Westbrook and Ibaka to come and play with Derozan, Lowry and JV. as I think you are severely overvaluing the current players on this team and their abilities.

Its as simple as that for me. It has nothing to do with me thinking they can't attract players. I think you can but no superstar is dying to come a .500 team.

[white men can't jump]

Why is the Raps roster so appealing and OKC's isn't? OKC has another superstar in Westbrook. A player KD has played with and went to a Finals with already. OKC is challenging for top spot in the West, have had Westbrook out for half the year and we are wondering who's roster is in better shape? Have we forgotten about Ibaka as well? Come on man.

Indeed we are wondering who's roster is in better shape.

Westbrook has had 3 knee surgeries in the past year and is a player who depends almost entirely on his explosiveness to be effective.

Ibaka is a 3rd fiddle. I like him a lot, but he's not alleviating that much of the load from KD.

Beyond that they have question marks everywhere. And they don't have a lot of financial wiggleroom coming up, on top of having ownership that really doesn't want to go into tax territory.

They are contenders at all because of KD, not because of a fantastic roster. Their management has done a great job trying to plug holes and keep a patch-job together, but they could've much more easily maintained a solid group if they were just willing to spend to keep Harden (who was critical to their last Finals run). It's going to be harder and harder for them to improve the team beyond KD with late draft picks and little money to spend. And if Westbrook continues to struggle with knee issues, they're in a tight spot.

So yeah, the OKC situation is not fantastic. KD makes the situation. If he leaves, he breaks it. I don't know that they're a playoff team in the West without him, even if Westbrook is healthy. It's definitely debatable. While Toronto is a playoff team in the East (which is generally weaker) without him. If they can continue that for a couple of years, while OKC fails to win (and has minimal avenues for improvement), I can see Toronto being a pretty damn appealing roster/situation for free agents, including but not limited to KD.

[mcHAPPY]

Why is the Raps roster so appealing and OKC's isn't? OKC has another superstar in Westbrook. A player KD has played with and went to a Finals with already. OKC is challenging for top spot in the West, have had Westbrook out for half the year and we are wondering who's roster is in better shape? Have we forgotten about Ibaka as well? Come on man.

The raptors roster, by the time KD made a decision in FA, will have evolved for two years. Current young players will develop and unknowns will be brought in.

Why could the roster in toronto appeal?
1. Depth - OKC is not super deep. Moving forward Ujiri and Weltman are badass talent finding and drafting muthaf....
2. Bird rights - Ujiri is going to build through the draft and keeping great players is not an issue with Bird rights
3. Ownership willing to pay - OKC will never pay luxury as they pay and lose revenue sharing (double whammy), Raps most definitely will to keep contender together
4. Westbrook - not the easiest guy to deal with and there are serious questions about his knee moving forward... Never mind his game.
5. What happens if memories of Harden resurface after Reggie Jackson gets paid - by someone other than OKC due to tax implications


Dwight Howard went to the finals with Orlando - just throwing that out there.


The odds are certainly not in Toronto's favour but Most things when planning in the nba aren't. The key is having option to do it and if it doesn't work out maybe raps sign batum at 27 and Anderson at 28 instead (or sub your own free agents here).

2016 will likely be last year for raps to be a player in free agency with young core currently have.