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Time For Toronto Raptors To Insert Greivis Vasquez Into Starting Lineup.

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  • #46
    Mauro150611 wrote: View Post
    If I give more data.
    Greivis vasquez is a Top 3 PG FG% after the nba all-star game.

    Statistics after the All-Star game:

    MIN: 22.7
    FG%: .468
    3P%: .367
    FT%: .900
    AST: 3.7
    Reb. 2.8
    PTS: 11.5

    Of you who have criticized his arrival in Toronto and its games, now can not negate an undoubted improvement in his game and I say, will continue to improve.

    They need to give more minutes on court.
    I totally agree with you, his game is improving drastically.

    However I just don't see it helping him or the starting unit if he's plugged into that role. I'd rather see him play 5-8 more minutes a game and rest lowry going into the playoffs here, than have him replace ross. He plays best basketball when he can set the tone and control his envrionment.

    If we needed a spark then sure lets get vasquez in there. Playing alongside lowry and derozan against most opposing teams starting lineups I would rather have Ross's 3'n'D mentality though. Vasquez has been improving and is thriving in his current role, why would we want to change that? I think once 2Pat comes back he's going to get even better with an additional scoring option on the floor with him

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    • #47
      Mauro150611 wrote: View Post
      If I give more data.
      Greivis vasquez is a Top 3 PG FG% after the nba all-star game.

      Statistics after the All-Star game:

      MIN: 22.7
      FG%: .468
      3P%: .367
      FT%: .900
      AST: 3.7
      Reb. 2.8
      PTS: 11.5

      Of you who have criticized his arrival in Toronto and its games, now can not negate an undoubted improvement in his game and I say, will continue to improve.

      They need to give more minutes on court.
      a) Just because a guy produces in limited minutes doesn't mean he'll up that by playing more. Hence why there's this thing called the 6th man.

      b) You don't have to put a guy into the starting line up if you want to increase their miuntes.

      c) Stats without context is only half the story. You have to consider on average how many minutes out of those 22.7 was him playing against opposing 2nd units. I'm pretty sure it's more than 50%. He might not give you the same production against starting line ups, not to mention having him play out of position as the off guard.

      d) Putting him in the starting line up means shifting DD over to the 3. Don't even want to picture how he'd do defensively in that situation.

      Comment


      • #48
        Pong wrote: View Post
        a) Just because a guy produces in limited minutes doesn't mean he'll up that by playing more. Hence why there's this thing called the 6th man.

        b) You don't have to put a guy into the starting line up if you want to increase their miuntes.

        c) Stats without context is only half the story. You have to consider on average how many minutes out of those 22.7 was him playing against opposing 2nd units. I'm pretty sure it's more than 50%. He might not give you the same production against starting line ups, not to mention having him play out of position as the off guard.

        d) Putting him in the starting line up means shifting DD over to the 3. Don't even want to picture how he'd do defensively in that situation.
        What these underestimated.

        I do not know what GV is capable of.
        GV last season (before the injury)
        Scoring 13.9 points per game,
        9.0 Assistance (Third best in the entire NBA)
        704 total assists (The player with the most assists of all NBA)
        34 min per game.
        .433 FG%.
        .343 3P%
        All these statistics being on the 3rd worst team in the NBA.

        Then do not come to say, he can not do those statistics against starters, if you were among the best PG last season.
        please do not insult him that way, if you do not know your game.
        Right now I return to your game, I is at 100% and anger showing what he is capable of doing.

        Comment


        • #49
          Excuse my English.
          Is that use translator.

          Comment


          • #50
            The thing about Vasquez is that he appears, to me, to be auditioning. This is a contract year for him, and he believes he is a capable starting PG in this league, and I feel like he is trying to prove this when he gets on the court. He is doing this by trying to be an offensive weapon, and the pass first label that accompanied him when he arrived does not apply. He sometimes takes shots he shouldn't, and often does not find the open man for an easier shot. Fortunately, this hasn't affected the team negatively overall, and we are actually better for his play.

            Of course, a part of this is a result of the Patterson injury, and as such Vasquez is trying to shoulder the offensive load for the bench, which makes sense. Luckily, he has responded quite well and has been playing great basketball in Patterson's absence, and this team definitely needs an offensive Vasquez, with or without Patterson. But, even before the Patterson injury, I felt that Vasquez was often forcing it a bit too much, and I feel this is a result of him trying to prove himself to the organization/league. How often do you notice Vasquez look over to the bench after he makes a good shot or play, presumably to gauge the reactions of the players/coaches? It's almost as if he is trying to receive validation/recognition from the bench/coaches that he did well or something. I don't like it. It's something a child would do, and he needs to stop it. No one else on the team does it, unless they just made some crazy near to impossible shot or something. Vasquez does it on a floater, or a set 3 after a pass from Demar. Routine shit.

            Furthermore, Vasquez isn't the greatest floor general (at least not so far in a Raps uni). He isn't great at directing traffic, like telling players where they need to be based on who is setting screens and what not. Sometimes he will call up one guy for a screen, then wave him off for the other big, and before the screen is set he starts his move. No other player is ready, and just reacting to whatever Vasquez is doing (which is usually trying to get into the paint). They aren't ready for rebounds, or to receive a pass, or make a cut. The offense is often a little too chaotic for my tastes, and Vasquez seems to be often just trying to get the defence off balance enough for him to make a move and attempt a shot.

            This is one of the reasons I like him on the floor with Lowry, because Lowry will not let him get carried away and will handle the ball and direct the offence if necessary. However, I am not advocating starting him, because I too, feel he is better served coming off the bench on this team.

            That being said, I do like Vasquez. I think he can be a starting PG is this league, but not on this team as long as Lowry is here. So, he needs to accept his role as a backup PG/SG. He can still get near to starters minutes subbing in for Lowry/Ross/Demar. Personally, I'd prefer to see him come off the bench more instead of Salmons to sub in for Ross or Demar. He may not be as good as Salmons defensively, but he isn't as bad as many make it seem and he is obviously a much better scorer and ball handler. But I would still like to see him work on a few things. Getting his teammates involved more would be great. Specifically, I'd like to see him utilize our bigs more in the PnR. I don't think he has issue finding Patterson in the pick and pop, but I feel he does a poor job using the roller. He also needs to kick it out more, especially on those contested floaters. Lowry has done a great job over the course of the season improving at getting his teammates involved. I want Vasquez to do this too...look for his teammates a few more times per game rather than look for his shot. As much as we need him for offence, he needs to understand that it isn't just about him scoring, but him creating good opportunities for his teammates. His assist numbers aren't bad, and he isn't a black hole or selfish player (sometimes selfish maybe), but it just seems to me that he is trying to prove that he can score in this league. I'm not sure where the front office is on him, and who knows what's going to happen with Lowry, but with or without our starting PG, I think Vasquez can have a future with this team if he accepts his role and stops with the auditioning!!

            Comment


            • #51
              JawsGT wrote: View Post
              The thing about Vasquez is that he appears, to me, to be auditioning. This is a contract year for him, and he believes he is a capable starting PG in this league, and I feel like he is trying to prove this when he gets on the court. He is doing this by trying to be an offensive weapon, and the pass first label that accompanied him when he arrived does not apply. He sometimes takes shots he shouldn't, and often does not find the open man for an easier shot. Fortunately, this hasn't affected the team negatively overall, and we are actually better for his play.

              Of course, a part of this is a result of the Patterson injury, and as such Vasquez is trying to shoulder the offensive load for the bench, which makes sense. Luckily, he has responded quite well and has been playing great basketball in Patterson's absence, and this team definitely needs an offensive Vasquez, with or without Patterson. But, even before the Patterson injury, I felt that Vasquez was often forcing it a bit too much, and I feel this is a result of him trying to prove himself to the organization/league. How often do you notice Vasquez look over to the bench after he makes a good shot or play, presumably to gauge the reactions of the players/coaches? It's almost as if he is trying to receive validation/recognition from the bench/coaches that he did well or something. I don't like it. It's something a child would do, and he needs to stop it. No one else on the team does it, unless they just made some crazy near to impossible shot or something. Vasquez does it on a floater, or a set 3 after a pass from Demar. Routine shit.

              Furthermore, Vasquez isn't the greatest floor general (at least not so far in a Raps uni). He isn't great at directing traffic, like telling players where they need to be based on who is setting screens and what not. Sometimes he will call up one guy for a screen, then wave him off for the other big, and before the screen is set he starts his move. No other player is ready, and just reacting to whatever Vasquez is doing (which is usually trying to get into the paint). They aren't ready for rebounds, or to receive a pass, or make a cut. The offense is often a little too chaotic for my tastes, and Vasquez seems to be often just trying to get the defence off balance enough for him to make a move and attempt a shot.

              This is one of the reasons I like him on the floor with Lowry, because Lowry will not let him get carried away and will handle the ball and direct the offence if necessary. However, I am not advocating starting him, because I too, feel he is better served coming off the bench on this team.

              That being said, I do like Vasquez. I think he can be a starting PG is this league, but not on this team as long as Lowry is here. So, he needs to accept his role as a backup PG/SG. He can still get near to starters minutes subbing in for Lowry/Ross/Demar. Personally, I'd prefer to see him come off the bench more instead of Salmons to sub in for Ross or Demar. He may not be as good as Salmons defensively, but he isn't as bad as many make it seem and he is obviously a much better scorer and ball handler. But I would still like to see him work on a few things. Getting his teammates involved more would be great. Specifically, I'd like to see him utilize our bigs more in the PnR. I don't think he has issue finding Patterson in the pick and pop, but I feel he does a poor job using the roller. He also needs to kick it out more, especially on those contested floaters. Lowry has done a great job over the course of the season improving at getting his teammates involved. I want Vasquez to do this too...look for his teammates a few more times per game rather than look for his shot. As much as we need him for offence, he needs to understand that it isn't just about him scoring, but him creating good opportunities for his teammates. His assist numbers aren't bad, and he isn't a black hole or selfish player (sometimes selfish maybe), but it just seems to me that he is trying to prove that he can score in this league. I'm not sure where the front office is on him, and who knows what's going to happen with Lowry, but with or without our starting PG, I think Vasquez can have a future with this team if he accepts his role and stops with the auditioning!!
              Good answer. Greetings.

              Comment


              • #52
                The thing is that you're trying to build a playoff roster and ultimately a winning roster. Plugging in a weak defensive player like GV is just asking to be exploited in a seven game series.

                That was one of the great strengths of the no-star Pistons: The Wallace(s), Prince, Rip & Billups could ALL defend their positions. That compensated for not having that elite scorer and even overcoming Ben Wallace's ineptness on O. Even though the Pistons won only one 1 championship, they had a fantastic run of conference and finals appearances for an extended period.

                It is definitely possible to build a sustainable conf. finals team without that elite player, but you can't have any weak defensive players in the starting lineup. Or, if you're like the Mavericks, you need a future HOF offensive talent, like Dirk to be complemented by an uber elite rim protector like Tyson Chandler, who also happens to be an ultra high efficient (but low usage) offensive player - a perfect match. Chemistry and fit can supercede talent, sometimes. But still, unless it's Dirk + Tyson, you can't win with weak defensive players in the starting lineup.

                Comment


                • #53
                  He certainly is forcing the issue more than I've ever seen him, or maybe I just didn't watch him enough. I also felt like he was trying to prove his worth. It's not just since Patterson went down, he has forced up shots ever since he got here. He wasn't making his shots when he first got here, but he is now.. Seems like the only difference to me. I remember when he first got here, he launched some of the worst tear drop/ floaters I'd ever seen, they were freaking awful. But he's been hitting most of them lately. Of course he is probably accustomed to the team now and that helps his play, but I wonder whether he can keep this up or not. His play has been vital lately.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    BigCamB wrote: View Post
                    He certainly is forcing the issue more than I've ever seen him, or maybe I just didn't watch him enough. I also felt like he was trying to prove his worth. It's not just since Patterson went down, he has forced up shots ever since he got here. He wasn't making his shots when he first got here, but he is now.. Seems like the only difference to me. I remember when he first got here, he launched some of the worst tear drop/ floaters I'd ever seen, they were freaking awful. But he's been hitting most of them lately. Of course he is probably accustomed to the team now and that helps his play, but I wonder whether he can keep this up or not. His play has been vital lately.
                    One thing that has not been mentioned about Vasquez is that he did undergo offseason surgery on his ankle and there were indications early in the year that he may have come back too soon. Whether he is 100% is, of course, unknowable, but he certainly struggled early in the year, so it can be assumed it has affected his play.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Mauro150611 wrote: View Post
                      What these underestimated.

                      I do not know what GV is capable of.
                      GV last season (before the injury)
                      Scoring 13.9 points per game,
                      9.0 Assistance (Third best in the entire NBA)
                      704 total assists (The player with the most assists of all NBA)
                      34 min per game.
                      .433 FG%.
                      .343 3P%
                      All these statistics being on the 3rd worst team in the NBA.

                      Then do not come to say, he can not do those statistics against starters, if you were among the best PG last season.
                      please do not insult him that way, if you do not know your game.
                      Right now I return to your game, I is at 100% and anger showing what he is capable of doing.
                      Players putting up numbers on bad teams is nothing new (i.e. Philli). And again, those are numbers with him playing primarily as a PG. TR is a better SG (both offensively and defensively).

                      Your numbers also only indicate what he is capable of offensively. Just because the guy can put up assists doesn't mean he's amongst the best PGs in the league. That's just crazy. He's not a bad defender, but he'll definitely get burned significantly more times at the starting 2 than TR.

                      You didn't address the issue of shifting DD as the 3. He's going to have a harder time taking on bigger players.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Am I the only one who approves of Vasquez's shot selection?

                        I generally see him taking open threes or trying to get to the basket. If those shots are there, you have to take them. Especially as the only weapon on the second unit.
                        "Bruno?
                        Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                        He's terrible."

                        -Superjudge, 7/23

                        Hope you're wrong.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Pong wrote: View Post
                          Players putting up numbers on bad teams is nothing new (i.e. Philli). And again, those are numbers with him playing primarily as a PG. TR is a better SG (both offensively and defensively).

                          Your numbers also only indicate what he is capable of offensively. Just because the guy can put up assists doesn't mean he's amongst the best PGs in the league. That's just crazy. He's not a bad defender, but he'll definitely get burned significantly more times at the starting 2 than TR.

                          You didn't address the issue of shifting DD as the 3. He's going to have a harder time taking on bigger players.
                          But that it was one of the best PG in the NBA last season I do not mean just the experts and NBA officials say,

                          And to say that was the second best year progress, under nothing more and nothing less than "Paul George".

                          Again, stop underestimating man, you do not know about Greivis Vasquez.

                          And be a starter about, it was just an opinion, does not mean it is correct.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            thead wrote: View Post
                            someone tell me his D rating...since the all star break...I don't know how to do that
                            Individual DRTG is 108 (one of the worst on the team). Team DRTG with him on the floor is 99.4 (one of the best on the team).
                            twitter.com/dhackett1565

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              stooley wrote: View Post
                              Am I the only one who approves of Vasquez's shot selection?

                              I generally see him taking open threes or trying to get to the basket. If those shots are there, you have to take them. Especially as the only weapon on the second unit.
                              I agree, his shot selection isn't bad. If he isn't shooting 3's, he trying to take it inside which is great. But I still think he could do more to get the bigs involved.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Mauro150611 wrote: View Post
                                But that it was one of the best PG in the NBA last season I do not mean just the experts and NBA officials say,

                                And to say that was the second best year progress, under nothing more and nothing less than "Paul George".

                                Again, stop underestimating man, you do not know about Greivis Vasquez.

                                And be a starter about, it was just an opinion, does not mean it is correct.
                                True that it's an editorial piece so it's technically an opinion. But the guy's using a definitive statement "Time for toronto raptors to insert GV into starting lineup" as the article title lol.

                                And what exactly am I underestimating? He's not better than lowry and he's not a 2 guard. And you can't just look at his personal stats and say that it makes sense for him to start. Even if he does up his stats, would that be to the detriment of the team? Some questions, such as the following needs to be addressed:

                                1) How does that affect the starting lineup's defensive rating (as some have already mentioned)?

                                2) How does this affect derozan offensively and defensively, since he's going to be starting at the 3 instead. With TR in the starting lineup, DD and TR sometimes trades coverages depending on the matchups. Insert GV into the starting lineup and DD will have to play the 3.

                                3) How does this affect TR? TR can't just turn it up like GV can off the bench. He needs to get into rhythm in order to maintain his production. We've seen it time and time again that TR fades when things don't go right for him (which isn't all too surprisingly for a sophmore).

                                4) Who's going to run the 2nd unit?

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