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Thread: Anyone else a little concerned...

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote GLF wrote: View Post
    YES! This has been worrying me for a while. As they say you live by the jumper you die by the jumper. I'm hoping our good ball movement helps us but we definitely rely WAY too heavily on the jumpshot to have any chance of doing well in the playoffs. Unless we play Washington. But that looks like it won't be happening anymore.
    Not only do we shoot a lot of jumpers, but the ball doesn't swing that much either. Our ball movement is not actually that spectacular. It's pretty average. And the ball rarely goes through more than 2-3 players on any set. It's still better than in the Gay times, or better than most of Casey's first 2 years here, but it's a long way away from better teams like SAS, POR, GSW, or even the offensively challenged (talent-wise) Bulls. The 2nd or 3rd passes are rarely made.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Not only do we shoot a lot of jumpers, but the ball doesn't swing that much either. Our ball movement is not actually that spectacular. It's pretty average. And the ball rarely goes through more than 2-3 players on any set. It's still better than in the Gay times, or better than most of Casey's first 2 years here, but it's a long way away from better teams like SAS, POR, GSW, or even the offensively challenged (talent-wise) Bulls. The 2nd or 3rd passes are rarely made.
    I feel our passing is average at best

    Not as good as SAS,GSW, POR

    But better then the BULLS,CAVS etc
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  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star Raptorsnz's Avatar
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    I feel confident for the playoffs because of the simple fact that the Raptors seem to always play better against good teams and take the bad teams lightly. Recently we've had wins/close losses vs the Thunder, Grizzlies and Suns where it was close throughout and it's against the Hawks x2 and the Cavs where they've been awful.

    Once it gets to the playoffs I think you'll see a much better effort from the Raptors for the full 48 minutes.

  4. #24
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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    I feel our passing is average at best

    Not as good as SAS,GSW, POR

    But better then the BULLS,CAVS etc
    NAW Bulls are way better than us at moving the ball. That's one of the reasons why their offense has been so much better as of late. At least from the eye test. Stats might say something different. But you both are right. We are average at best when it comes to ball movement. That is why we have so many offensive droughts during a game. And most of the time it's us doing it to ourselves it's nothing the defense is causing.

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  6. #25
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    Quote Raptorsnz wrote: View Post
    I feel confident for the playoffs because of the simple fact that the Raptors seem to always play better against good teams and take the bad teams lightly. Recently we've had wins/close losses vs the Thunder, Grizzlies and Suns where it was close throughout and it's against the Hawks x2 and the Cavs where they've been awful.

    Once it gets to the playoffs I think you'll see a much better effort from the Raptors for the full 48 minutes.
    Well you better be right. The only thing is we are playing a lot of crappy teams to end the season and when something becomes a habit it's hard to break it. So if coming down to end the season we play every crappy teams lightly it can very easily follow us into the playoffs because now it has become habit. We will see.

  7. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Speaking of history repeating itself...

    Anyone else see some similarities between Jorge "sweet-shooting, PF, Glue-Guy" Garbajosa going down and that teams subsequent struggles with 2pat and our current struggles?

    Makes you appreciate how important a true 6th man can be.

  8. #27
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote themasao wrote: View Post
    Speaking of history repeating itself...

    Anyone else see some similarities between Jorge "sweet-shooting, PF, Glue-Guy" Garbajosa going down and that teams subsequent struggles with 2pat and our current struggles?

    Makes you appreciate how important a true 6th man can be.
    In some ways, except Garbo played a lot at SF.

  9. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    I'm not worried because I expected them to be average once MU got fooled and fell for whatever he hell for and abandoned the tank.

    Not bringing up the old argument, no point, but once Toronto opted out of the tank, it was full on hoping they could compete and win.... having watched them lose almost EVERY so called "must win" game since, I think its safe to say they are basically the same as most of the lower third teams....just without the tank in place.

    I said it weeks ago, Brooklyn would catch them, and I stand by that fully. Toronto isn't good, the are just average, and will not get a good draft pick, but will also not have anything close to success in the playoffs.

  10. #29
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    I will always be worried until we can get another star player such as this who could take us into the promise land

    I DONT TRUST PEOPLE WHO WEAR SUNGLASSES AT NIGHT

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  12. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I see the current iteration as different in a few ways from the '06-'07 team:

    1. Better defensive team. The '06 and '07 teams outscored you but they couldn't defend very well. Theoretically, being a better defensive team is more sustainable.

    2. Age. Every single key player on this team is either not in his prime, just entering it or early in it. That bodes well. The '06-'07 teams did not have that kind of combination of depth/age.

    3. Cap and drafts. The 06-07 team had no simple way to improve. Ujiri has picks, moveable assets and cap space. Up to him to ensure it makes a difference.

    The key question is not whether this is a repeat of 2006-2010 but how far can this current core go without a Durant or someone like him. Can they be an ECF contender or just playoff fodder?
    The bold is the question - isn't it?

    Personally, I think playoff fodder but I've been wrong on this whole season, maybe I'm wrong again.

    I really am hoping the Raptors go beyond the first round but if they do not, I see a lot of positives for Ujiri to work with. First, a 1st round bounce will give Ujiri the ammo he needs to justify to a fan base about big changes. Secondly, tied in to the first, is Amir, DD, and Lowry have never had higher trade value. Due to future cap space concerns I don't see the Raptors capable of keeping all of the current core and being a player in free agency in 2015 or 2016. Finally, financial flexibility is there to take on bad contracts for the benefit of assets (prospects/rookie deals or future picks). I see 2014-15 another year of asset accumulation (this past year has brought 3 draft picks, 2 solid role players (Vasquez, PP), prospect (De Colo), and value contract (Hansbrough)). Take on a bad contract that expires after 2014-15 is not going to hurt the team because they are not set up to be free agent players for another year/until 2015 anyways.


    As for the original thread and about being concerned with 2006-2007 - no, I'm not in the slightest:
    - younger team,
    - more financial flexibility,
    - more assets,
    - a GM with a history of capitalizing on opportunity and showing patience,
    - an ownership group not run by a pension plan (i.e. willing to spend and not just looking for cash cows),
    - a CEO who talks a great game but has also delivered since in Toronto (TFC and Masai) and in his LA past (Beckham),
    - I think there will be a new coach as I just can't see a GM who wants to build through the draft comfortable with a coach who wants to roll with vets.
    - finally and maybe most importantly, MU was here on the last go around with a semi-competitive team. I don't believe he wants the 2006-2007 Raps to repeat as strongly as us fans.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  13. #31
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    The 2006-2007 team comes up often as a shining example of what could happen. The reason that bombed was the short term moves that Bryan made. He tried to create a team around Bosh and paid for it.

    There is no one guy that we need to build around with this current roster. There is no 'superstar'. Lowry might be the closest but I don't think anyone would consider Lowry a top 20 player in the league despite the success he's had this season. And Lowry is not a 'max' guy - not even close.

    They have the flexibility to get a max guy and the thing I like about MU over BC is that MU is trying to build a team.. a group of cohesive parts. BC drafted Bargnani when they had Bosh. He got Jermaine O'Neal when Bargnani wasn't enough. He signed Hedo when they already had a dominant ball handler in Jose. He traded for Gay when he already had a guy who was similar in DeMar (who he just resigned to a 4 year contract).

    The only similarity might be a first round bounce.. but what were the expectations going into this season? I never considered a 3rd seed. I was thinking border line 8th seed and hoping for a tank since being in 7-11 sucks. Now that they are destined for the playoffs with a seed at least somewhere between 3-5 all we can hope for is some success and development (hoping the playoff atmosphere helps nurture some of the youth on the team).

    I personally don't think the Raptors will get passed the first round, but I never considered them a playoff team after the Gay trade went down so my expectations are jaded. And if they don't I still think the Raptors are far better off than they were at the start of the 2007-2008 season.

  14. #32
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    current playoff teams

    east: indy, mia, chi, tor, bk, was, cha, atl
    west: sas, okc, lac, hou, por, gsw, mem, dal

    of all those teams, we are the only team w/o a player making at least $10 mil.
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  15. #33
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    Mayday Mayday Raps falling fast. 2-4 in their last 6 and heading into a potential 5th seed nosedive!!

    3rd Seed: I think at this point we'll have to go 9-3 to secure it, the Bulls have been playing at a high level and I can easily see them going 8-3 over their last 11, I mean their toughest challenge is arguably Portland so that say's it all. I really don't see them going 7-4 over their last 11 games with the opposing level of competition but we can always hope.

    4th Seed: IMO 8-4 should secure the 4th seed unless the Nets keep streaking hard but it's hard to see them going 11-2 over their final 13. 7-5 from here on out could be a potential kiss of death (Losses to Mia, Ind, Hou, Nyk[H2H], and a stinker to either Bos[H2H], Orl, or Det) but again even 10-3 is a difficult finish to imagine from the Nets in their last 13. I'm guessing they go 9-4 which should seal the deal for us unless we really fumble and go 6-6.

    Bottom line is the Raps need to get their act together, a realistic expectation given their poor play lately is securing the 4th seed by going 7-5. It'd be nice if they could get themselves together but right now it looks like a limp into the playoffs and a first round exit to Brooklyn.

  16. #34
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    current playoff teams

    east: indy, mia, chi, tor, bk, was, cha, atl
    west: sas, okc, lac, hou, por, gsw, mem, dal

    of all those teams, we are the only team w/o a player making at least $10 mil.
    thats actually interesting. I havent convinced myself of how relevant (we certainly have some stinkers making $6-8 mm in the form of LF, JS, CH) .... but it is an interesting point none the less for cap flexibility going forward.

  17. #35
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    current playoff teams

    east: indy, mia, chi, tor, bk, was, cha, atl
    west: sas, okc, lac, hou, por, gsw, mem, dal

    of all those teams, we are the only team w/o a player making at least $10 mil.
    Is that a good thing though? The best contracts in the leagues are usually max's and mins. Mid level contracts are worst value per dollar in the league. See: Fields, Novak, Hayes.

  18. #36
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote themasao wrote: View Post
    Is that a good thing though? The best contracts in the leagues are usually max's and mins. Mid level contracts are worst value per dollar in the league. See: Fields, Novak, Hayes.
    That's a terrible point. So Rudy Gays 20million dollar contract next year is better than DeMar derozans 9.5? Kobe Bryant's 30million is better than what? He's a first ballot hall of famer but at this point dudes not worth 30 effin million. Novak is at what 3.5million? It's not ideal but it's not crippling. Sure fields is a disaster of a contract. Hayes contract is tough to swallow until u look at the discounts you get on Ppat and gravy (for now) Hayes is way too much but he's serviceable and brings good leadership so on a young team like this you can afford it for another year or 2.

    In closing, I disagree with your premise.

  19. #37
    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Not only do we shoot a lot of jumpers, but the ball doesn't swing that much either. Our ball movement is not actually that spectacular. It's pretty average. And the ball rarely goes through more than 2-3 players on any set. It's still better than in the Gay times, or better than most of Casey's first 2 years here, but it's a long way away from better teams like SAS, POR, GSW, or even the offensively challenged (talent-wise) Bulls. The 2nd or 3rd passes are rarely made.
    GSW's offense is pretty damn average and broken at times, considering the talent they have.
    Their defense is formidable though.

  20. #38
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The 2006-2007 team comes up often as a shining example of what could happen. The reason that bombed was the short term moves that Bryan made. He tried to create a team around Bosh and paid for it.

    There is no one guy that we need to build around with this current roster. There is no 'superstar'. Lowry might be the closest but I don't think anyone would consider Lowry a top 20 player in the league despite the success he's had this season. And Lowry is not a 'max' guy - not even close.

    They have the flexibility to get a max guy and the thing I like about MU over BC is that MU is trying to build a team.. a group of cohesive parts. BC drafted Bargnani when they had Bosh. He got Jermaine O'Neal when Bargnani wasn't enough. He signed Hedo when they already had a dominant ball handler in Jose. He traded for Gay when he already had a guy who was similar in DeMar (who he just resigned to a 4 year contract).

    The only similarity might be a first round bounce.. but what were the expectations going into this season? I never considered a 3rd seed. I was thinking border line 8th seed and hoping for a tank since being in 7-11 sucks. Now that they are destined for the playoffs with a seed at least somewhere between 3-5 all we can hope for is some success and development (hoping the playoff atmosphere helps nurture some of the youth on the team).

    I personally don't think the Raptors will get passed the first round, but I never considered them a playoff team after the Gay trade went down so my expectations are jaded. And if they don't I still think the Raptors are far better off than they were at the start of the 2007-2008 season.
    He is a top 20 player right now. Top 20, that's basically an all star. Easily.
    He won't get a max because of his history though.

  21. #39
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    He is a top 20 player right now. Top 20, that's basically an all star. Easily.
    He won't get a max because of his history though.
    I was referring more to his perception by fans, media and the league.. and it's hard to just consider this year when considering contracts especially when so many big named talented players were injured like Horford, Rose, Kobe, Rondo, Westbrook, Lopez this year.

    When ESPN does it's top 500 list next year.. let's see if Lowry makes the top 20. I know that voting system is dumb, but it's a good barometer of what the general population think about NBA players.

  22. #40
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I was referring more to his perception by fans, media and the league.. and it's hard to just consider this year when considering contracts especially when so many big named talented players were injured like Horford, Rose, Kobe, Rondo, Westbrook, Lopez this year.

    When ESPN does it's top 500 list next year.. let's see if Lowry makes the top 20. I know that voting system is dumb, but it's a good barometer of what the general population think about NBA players.
    Well, you said "anyone", so I'm one.

    But if you mean general public opinion, then you are probably right. Media kept voting Kobe all-defense for like 3 years after he stopped being solid on defense, it takes a while for the general media to catch up.

    As far as injuries, every year has multiple injured big name players. Some will get healthy, others will get injured, some will break out, others will fade away. In the end, it's up to Lowry himself to stay healthy and keep playing well. Lowry is a legit top 20 player right now. It's up to him to keep that form or lose it.

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