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Thread: Ideal Roster For Next Season? Vince Carter Involved?

  1. #161
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    I'm not gonna reply to the bold because it's cumbersome to have to copy paste all of it again. Next time please multi quote...

    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    On 44% eFG%....because DD is not efficient from the field. You are cherry picking a stat.

    Waiters over the last 30 is at 19ppg on 50% eFG% in 7 minutes less of PT...all the while with the same number of assists and TOVs but less rebounds. Oh, and his TS% is only 2% less over this stretch as well.
    I'm not cherry picking a stat. And by the way I hope you realize that TS% essentially is points per possession right? Effective field-goal percentage doesn't even take free throws into account and rewards players significantly for being better at shooting the 3. eFG% basically just tells you who the better three-point shooter is (talking about guards here), whereas TS% tells you who scores more efficiently. You can't just entirely remove free-throws from the equation when evaluating scoring efficiency, and that's exactly what eFG% does. There's a reason why it isn't particularly used a lot in most articles that you read.

    Just to make this more clear to you since you don't seem to understand why TS% is being used instead of eFG%.

    Quote Basketball Reference wrote:
    True Shooting Percentage; a measure of shooting effeciency that takes into account 2-point field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.
    Quote Basketball Reference wrote:
    Effective Field Goal Percentage; this statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal.

    A 30 game stretch is not "Cherry Picking"
    Yes it is. I can cherry-pick a 28 game stretch from DeRozan (Feb 1st - Mar 31st) where he averaged 24-5-5 on 55% TS. I've pointed this out already, but you have conveniently chosen to ignore it.

    Cherry Picking entails that you choose 1 stat that tells a completely different story from the rest of the data. If you look at the whole picture you will see that Waiters is as good as DD. Yes, DD has a higher TS% (only by 2%), but Waiters has a higher eFG% (by 6%), higher 3fg%, higher AST% and the same TOV%....and yet you have the audacity to support that this ONE STAT makes DD SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EFFICIENT....
    Actually, using a 30 game stretch in an 82 game season as a measure of how good a player actually is, IS cherry-picking. If I were to evaluate DeRozan based on his 28 game stretch from the start of February to the end of March, he would measure out at somewhere near Kobe (his stats during that period are right around Kobe's career numbers). Do you see how foolish that is? Players have hot and cold stretches during the course of the season, the average of that is what matters. That's why ESPN, NBA.com, Synergy, 82Games, Basketball Reference and virtually every major sports statistics site start off by showing you season averages and not hot stretches/cold stretches.

    Also some of the things you're saying aren't even true. Waiters' AST% (18.4%) is not higher than DeRozan's (19.1%) and his TOV% (12.3%) is not lower than DD's (9.5%). Looking at the whole picture Waiters is not better than DD and it's not just one stat. DeRozan scores more with better efficiency, rebounds the ball better and produces points for his teammates without turning the ball over as much despite seeing regular double-teams and being the focal point of the opposing team's defence. Additionally he holds his opponent to lower PER (only really objective way to measure individual D statistically). Both players typically match up defensively against the weaker wing player so that's a wash I suppose.

    You, my friend, are not making a very intelligent case
    I'm not your friend, and you should look in the mirror.

    So by your reasoning the Toronto Raptors from the first 20 games is exactly the same as the Raptors from the last ~60, because the whole data set includes those first 20 and that nothing can ever change over the course of a season......
    No that's not what I said, don't twist my words. First of all I don't think that comparison is accurate because you're talking about the majority of the season (60+ games with the Raptors) and trying to compare it to 30 games.

    Nevertheless I'll entertain the idea. Obviously there are huge differences in performance between the pre-Gay and post-Gay Raptors, that is obvious. And yes like you said the whole data set includes those first 20. That doesn't mean that nothing can change. Clearly something did change (ie. the Raptors record). But unfortunately I don't get to take those 60 odd games and just extrapolate them for the whole season like you're trying to do with Waiters' 30 game stretch. Yeah the Raptors are, what, 41-21 since the Gay trade? Does that mean I get to take that winning percentage, apply it to the whole season and say we're a 54-win team? No it doesn't because we still played those 18 games at the start of the season and they still count towards our record.

    This is even more true for Waiters' 30 game stretch. Cool, he increased his efficiency a bit and scored at a higher rate for the last 30 games. But the previous 40+ games also count towards his performance, and at the end of the day he's going to finish the season with around a 50% TS% on around 16ppg. So in essence not only is he not scoring at a high rate, he's not even doing so efficiently despite taking more shots per 36 than players like DeRozan, Harden, Curry, etc. I'm not sure how you're going to try and justify that 15.9ppg on 14.2 shots is acceptable under any circumstance.

    There isn't even any real proof that Waiters is an above average player atm. His AST%/TO% rate is below 2:1. He has extremely high usage but doesn't score efficiently with it whatsoever. His defense is average at best. He's a good 3pt shooter but they don't constitute a large enough percentage of his shots to make him an efficient scorer. He doesn't get to the line at a high rate, nor convert his free throws (68%) when he gets there. He finishes poorly at the rim. Both his oRTG and dRTG are worse than that of his team (which is atrocious in both categories). He also is known for having locker room problems, so even the intangibles aren't there.

    But yet we should deal DeRozan for him because you don't like how he plays. Once again, thank God you're not Ujiri.

    30 games is a large enough data set. Pretty sure this was argued at the beginning of the year with DD's 3pt shot...when he could not maintain it for 30 games and regressed to the norm.
    I've already pointed out several times that it's not large enough to define his whole season. It just means he's played well the last 30 games (just like DeRozan was basically Kobe offensively from the start of February to the end of March --- 28 games). You want to define a player's season, look at what he's done for the whole season.

    And DD's 3PT shooting, while it did regress from the beginning of the season, isn't really at "the norm". He's shooting over 30% for the first time despite increasing his number of 3PT attempts by a large margin. He's still not at a point where he needs to be though for a 3 to be considered an effective shot for him though (33%+).

    Btw with your whole 30-games being "large enough" mantra, does it matter if it's 30 consecutive games or not? Why do they have to be in order?

    DeRozan - November + March:
    30 Games Played
    31 3PM
    86 3PA
    36% 3PT

    So above average 3PT shooting on over a make per game. Seems like DD has really become a great 3PT shooter based on those 30 games...

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  3. #162
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    I'm not gonna reply to the bold because it's cumbersome to have to copy paste all of it again. Next time please multi quote...
    Fair. I got lazy

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    I'm not cherry picking a stat. And by the way I hope you realize that TS% essentially is points per possession right? Effective field-goal percentage doesn't even take free throws into account and rewards players significantly for being better at shooting the 3. eFG% basically just tells you who the better three-point shooter is (talking about guards here), whereas TS% tells you who scores more efficiently. You can't just entirely remove free-throws from the equation when evaluating scoring efficiency, and that's exactly what eFG% does. There's a reason why it isn't particularly used a lot in most articles that you read.

    Just to make this more clear to you since you don't seem to understand why TS% is being used instead of eFG%.
    However Waiters is more efficient from the field. If DD is not getting to the line...he is really bad.

    TS% is closer to PPP yes, but still doesn't account for TOVs like PPP does.

    Elite PPP is around >1.04 (KD-LBJ-Curry-Dirk-Harden-Love-Davis)**

    Efficient is around 1.00 (Griffin-Jefferson-Anthony-Dragic)

    Very good is around 0.95 (DD [0.951]-Waiters [0.935]-Lilliard-Cousins)

    Inefficient starts around about <0.920 (LA-Gay-George)

    **Gerald Green has been really good. For his case I want a significantly larger data set. But for the rest of the league over the last 30 the data was pretty damn accurate...so I think last 30 is pretty good.

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Yes it is. I can cherry-pick a 28 game stretch from DeRozan (Feb 1st - Mar 31st) where he averaged 24-5-5 on 55% TS. I've pointed this out already, but you have conveniently chosen to ignore it.
    You mean the following "conveniently chosen to ignore it" bit of data that was in my first response to your initial post?

    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Over the last 30 games:

    Dion Waiters eFG%: 50.4% TS%: 52.8
    DeMar DeRozan eFG%: 44.3% TS%: 54.8

    From the floor, Waiters is a more efficient shooter, however DD does get to the line a lot, which boosts his numbers significantly.
    Well that's awkward...

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Actually, using a 30 game stretch in an 82 game season as a measure of how good a player actually is, IS cherry-picking. If I were to evaluate DeRozan based on his 28 game stretch from the start of February to the end of March, he would measure out at somewhere near Kobe (his stats during that period are right around Kobe's career numbers). Do you see how foolish that is? Players have hot and cold stretches during the course of the season, the average of that is what matters. That's why ESPN, NBA.com, Synergy, 82Games, Basketball Reference and virtually every major sports statistics site start off by showing you season averages and not hot stretches/cold stretches.

    Also some of the things you're saying aren't even true. Waiters' AST% (18.4%) is not higher than DeRozan's (19.1%) and his TOV% (12.3%) is not lower than DD's (9.5%). Looking at the whole picture Waiters is not better than DD and it's not just one stat. DeRozan scores more with better efficiency, rebounds the ball better and produces points for his teammates without turning the ball over as much despite seeing regular double-teams and being the focal point of the opposing team's defence. Additionally he holds his opponent to lower PER (only really objective way to measure individual D statistically). Both players typically match up defensively against the weaker wing player so that's a wash I suppose.
    I am comparing DD's best part of the season to Waiter's best part of the season. If there is any bias in that let me know. 30 games is a large enough data set.

    Where are you getting your numbers? I am using nba.com

    Waiters AST% = 21.8%
    DD AST% = 19.1%

    Waiters TO Ratio = 8.6
    DD TO Ratio = 8.1

    Skill wise Waiters has DD beat. I suggest nba.com for some game footage. (again) He is a better driver/handler/passer/shooter, however not everything has translated yet.

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    I'm not your friend, and you should look in the mirror.
    Point?

    You have been cherry picking 1 stat from a larger data set

    I have been using a smaller data set (although a still sufficiently sized data set) and using multiple stats

    Who has a more intelligent case? Both have flaws, but one is better.

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    No that's not what I said, don't twist my words. First of all I don't think that comparison is accurate because you're talking about the majority of the season (60+ games with the Raptors) and trying to compare it to 30 games.
    It is exactly what you meant. Don't change your opinions now...you're doing soooo well

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Nevertheless I'll entertain the idea. Obviously there are huge differences in performance between the pre-Gay and post-Gay Raptors, that is obvious. And yes like you said the whole data set includes those first 20. That doesn't mean that nothing can change. Clearly something did change (ie. the Raptors record). But unfortunately I don't get to take those 60 odd games and just extrapolate them for the whole season like you're trying to do with Waiters' 30 game stretch. Yeah the Raptors are, what, 41-21 since the Gay trade? Does that mean I get to take that winning percentage, apply it to the whole season and say we're a 54-win team? No it doesn't because we still played those 18 games at the start of the season and they still count towards our record.
    So you are saying that right now we play like a .588 team and not the .661 win team because that is what our record indicates?

    At the end of the season for seeding into playoffs it counts....but the team that we are heading into playoffs with is actually better...so which is the more accurate number describing how good we are going into playoffs? The .588 team, or the .661 team?

    Neither answer is completely correct, but one answer is better than the other.

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    But yet we should deal DeRozan for him because you don't like how he plays. Once again, thank God you're not Ujiri.
    Have you considered that maybe I really like the way Waiters plays, and not that I don't like how DD plays??

    I am not going to trade a player just cause I don't like his game, especially when he is playing as well as DD is.

    I will however, trade for a player whose game I really like. (Hence the Giannis trade, even though he is still largely a question mark)

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    I've already pointed out several times that it's not large enough to define his whole season. It just means he's played well the last 30 games (just like DeRozan was basically Kobe offensively from the start of February to the end of March --- 28 games). You want to define a player's season, look at what he's done for the whole season.

    And DD's 3PT shooting, while it did regress from the beginning of the season, isn't really at "the norm". He's shooting over 30% for the first time despite increasing his number of 3PT attempts by a large margin. He's still not at a point where he needs to be though for a 3 to be considered an effective shot for him though (33%+).
    DD has been very freaking good to end the season. Near Kobe on the offensive side of the ball....and Waiters is doing nearly the same thing over the same stretch...so I don't get why you are down putting Waiters so much?? It is a compliment to both players with how well they are playing.

    Do you not like his game? Do you think he would make a bad sixth man? Why do you not like Waiters? Or is your only argument going to be "inefficient chucker with attitude problems" in which I respond with "he has improved and is holding his own, as shown by the progression of his season"

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Btw with your whole 30-games being "large enough" mantra, does it matter if it's 30 consecutive games or not? Why do they have to be in order?

    DeRozan - November + March:
    30 Games Played
    31 3PM
    86 3PA
    36% 3PT

    So above average 3PT shooting on over a make per game. Seems like DD has really become a great 3PT shooter based on those 30 games...
    See this is the definition of cherry picking. You chose two segments where DD had hot shooting while ignoring a bad stretch in the middle. The last 30 for both DD and Waiters has had ups and downs and favors neither player over the other. Un-biased. Large enough to paint a pretty accurate picture, yet ignores the rough start for both players (DD really was an inefficient black hole to start the season, so doing last 30 helps him too)

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    We're now just repeating the same things over and over. I think you know you aren't making a lot of sense (the responses of other posters besides me to your posts should be a big enough clue).

    The point is you haven't actually shown why it makes any sense to trade DD for Waiters, and certainly have not shown how Waiters is or will ever be a better player than DeMar.

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    can we talk about a proper backup 5? chuck is too undersized

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  7. #165
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    The fundamental disagreement between the two of you is whether 30 games is a substantial enough sample size.

    I'd argue no.

    For a guy with attitude problems for a guy who spends his life in the gym. I better be damn sure he's playing better because even though DD's a little older, I see more improvement for him in store due to his work ethic.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    This is a shitty conversation... sorry fellas but there is no way Dion Waiters should be able to illicit such long paragraphs. The guy is a legit scrub.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    I just think that Waiters ability to handle and score as a sixth man is a very valuable skill to a team concept. I like one primary scorer off the bench, rather than having all the scoring punch in our starting unit, because it balances the team so your bench can hold or even extend leads. The lack of bench was really evident when Pattman went down and we needed to lean heavily on Vasquez. I would sacrifice some scoring from our starting unit for more defense, and have a stronger 3 man rotation off the bench.

    I would also look at Jordan Crawford in the offseason to fill this role. Or Carlos Delfino (less scoring, but more D) in a Bucks trade. PJ3 is a defensive specialist.

    For example. A lineup of:

    Lowry/De Colo
    Ross/[Delfino]
    Giannis/[PJ3]
    Amir/Pattman
    Val

    is a very strong starting and bench unit. Every position is able to defend (except Crawford). Scoring from the starting unit is very balanced, makes us harder to defend. Depending on the development from the young guys that team has the potential to be a consistent top 4 team in the East for many years.

    Similar thing with Waiters, except less D and a big question mark at SF...both things I covered in my original post.

    Lowry/De Colo
    Ross/Waiters
    [PJ3]
    Amir/Pattman
    Val
    Last edited by OldSkoolCool; Mon Apr 14th, 2014 at 11:32 AM.

  10. #168
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    This is a shitty conversation... sorry fellas but there is no way Dion Waiters should be able to illicit such long paragraphs. The guy is a legit scrub.
    Ditto. I've seen stretches where he's gone like 3-15 every other night and then lit it up occasionally, he's up and down like a yo yo. At least DD is steadily consistent with his numbers for the most part.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

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    JV/Amir/TH/Hayes
    Monroe/2PAt/TH/Novak
    Ross/Barnes (trade for draft pick)/Novak
    DeMar/Ross/Fields
    Lowry/Vasquez/2nd rounder

    We need more size and Monroe can do that for us. When JV subs out Amir comes in and plays along side Monroe, Monroe comes out 2Pat comes in to play with Amir. It would be a nice 4 more rotation. Same thing with DeMar, Barnes and Ross, those three would use up all the wing minutes, with maybe Vasquez taking the leftovers. If Barnes, JV and Ross can take another leap in their development we could have a contender.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I just think that Waiters ability to handle and score as a sixth man is a very valuable skill to a team concept. I like one primary scorer off the bench, rather than having all the scoring punch in our starting unit, because it balances the team so your bench can hold or even extend leads. The lack of bench was really evident when Pattman went down and we needed to lean heavily on Vasquez. I would sacrifice some scoring from our starting unit for more defense, and have a stronger 3 man rotation off the bench.

    I would also look at Jordan Crawford in the offseason to fill this role. Or Carlos Delfino (less scoring, but more D) in a Bucks trade. PJ3 is a defensive specialist.

    For example. A lineup of:

    Lowry/De Colo
    Ross/[Delfino]
    Giannis/[PJ3]
    Amir/Pattman
    Val

    is a very strong starting and bench unit. Every position is able to defend (except Crawford). Scoring from the starting unit is very balanced, makes us harder to defend. Depending on the development from the young guys that team has the potential to be a consistent top 4 team in the East for many years.

    Similar thing with Waiters, except less D and a big question mark at SF...both things I covered in my original post.

    Lowry/De Colo
    Ross/Waiters
    [PJ3]
    Amir/Pattman
    Val
    Both of those lineups are worse than our current one...

    *Sigh* I really shouldn't need to do this, but I'll explain why.

    The first lineup only has 1 shot creator in it (Lowry), that's a serious problem. Especially considering that you don't even get any spacing either because you have 3 guys (Po, Amir, JV) that aren't good shooters. So now you're basically asking Lowry to break down the defense on every possession and try to get easy looks for everyone. He's not Chris Paul, so that's a major problem (even for CP3 that would be a huge issue).

    The second lineup is also obviously worse. First of all you made the starting lineup weak as hell by having PJ3 in it. Secondly, you basically exchanged Waiters for Vasquez in the backup combo-guard role. At this point that is actually a SIGNIFICANT downgrade. Vasquez is equal to or better than Waiters at basically every relevant facet of the game.

    PTS/36: Vasquez (15.1), Waiters (19.3) --- So Waiters scores more that's about it.

    AST/36: Vasquez (6.5), Waiters (3.7)

    REB/36: Vasquez (3.5), Waiters (3.4)

    TS%: Vasquez (52.8%), Waiters (50.5%) --- Vasquez is a more efficient scorer

    eFG%: Vasquez (49.4%), Waiters (47.7%) --- Vasquez is a better shooter, also makes more threes at the same percentage.

    AST%: Vasquez (30.2%), Waiters (18.4%) --- Vasquez produces significantly more assists with his possessions, superior playmaker. His AST% to TO% ratio is also much better than Waiters'.

    Neither player is a particularly good defender, but Vasquez at 6'6 has more size to match up with bigger twos defensively.

    So there's no upgrade at all. You lose playmaking ability and exchange it for less efficient scoring. At the same time you also make our starting lineup worse by bringing in PJ3.
    Last edited by imanshumpert; Mon Apr 14th, 2014 at 12:08 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    This is a shitty conversation... sorry fellas but there is no way Dion Waiters should be able to illicit such long paragraphs. The guy is a legit scrub.
    Dunno about a scrub, but I do also find it fascinating that Waiters has been a focal point of such a lengthy debate!
    Do carry on.

    Last edited by BigCamB; Mon Apr 14th, 2014 at 12:24 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote saints91 wrote: View Post
    JV/Amir/TH/Hayes
    Monroe/2PAt/TH/Novak
    Ross/Barnes (trade for draft pick)/Novak
    DeMar/Ross/Fields
    Lowry/Vasquez/2nd rounder

    We need more size and Monroe can do that for us. When JV subs out Amir comes in and plays along side Monroe, Monroe comes out 2Pat comes in to play with Amir. It would be a nice 4 more rotation. Same thing with DeMar, Barnes and Ross, those three would use up all the wing minutes, with maybe Vasquez taking the leftovers. If Barnes, JV and Ross can take another leap in their development we could have a contender.
    I like the Barnes idea for our draft pick....but I'm not entirely sold on Monroe making our starting lineup better than Amir. Amir is very good defensively...Monroe not so much. I think I would take the pass on trying to attract him via RFA which would likely see us end up with a very inflated contract. Unless you have a trade that makes sense for both teams?

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Both of those lineups are worse than our current one...

    *Sigh* I really shouldn't need to do this, but I'll explain why.

    The first lineup only has 1 shot creator in it (Lowry), that's a serious problem. Especially considering that you don't even get any spacing either because you have 3 guys (Po, Amir, JV) that aren't good shooters. So now you're basically asking Lowry to break down the defense on every possession and try to get easy looks for everyone. He's not Chris Paul, so that's a major problem (even for CP3 that would be a huge issue).
    Umm Giannis is a good shot creator and a better shooter than you would think. 33% from three in his rookie season is not bad. Giannis is a SF who can run an offensive set and he has been doing this as a rookie so saying that ALL the play making goes on Lowry is a bit of a misnomer. Giannis would actually allow Lowry to play off the ball more than he can with DD (as DD is not a playmaker/running offensive sets)

    Yes I admit, next season we would be worse. But the seasons after that I would have to argue that we would be much much better as Giannis develops. We would be a MUCH better defensive team, and a more rounded offensive team. The more people who are relied on to score makes the team stronger because if one person is shut down another steps up (SAS)

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    The second lineup is also obviously worse. First of all you made the starting lineup weak as hell by having PJ3 in it. Secondly, you basically exchanged Waiters for Vasquez in the backup combo-guard role. At this point that is actually a SIGNIFICANT downgrade. Vasquez is equal to or better than Waiters at basically every relevant facet of the game.
    Hence why I said there is a problem with SF. You don't need to grill me for something that I already know is an issue. I'm done with this issue. Waiters is obviously Araujo.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Yes I admit, next season we would be worse. But the seasons after that I would have to argue that we would be much much better as Giannis develops. We would be a MUCH better defensive team, and a more rounded offensive team. The more people who are relied on to score makes the team stronger because if one person is shut down another steps up (SAS)
    Only going to respond to this because I've beaten the rest to death already.

    If Lowry gets shut down who's going to fill the void for him? You can't have a team entirely loaded with finishers/role players. You need multiple guys capable of creating their own baskets as well. It's cool to make the San Antonio Spurs comparison, but it's not the Danny Greens and Kawhi Leonards of the world that make that team. Those players are able to thrive because they play off 3 star guys that consistently put pressure on the defense in Parker, Manu and Duncan.

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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Only going to respond to this because I've beaten the rest to death already.

    If Lowry gets shut down who's going to fill the void for him? You can't have a team entirely loaded with finishers/role players. You need multiple guys capable of creating their own baskets as well. It's cool to make the San Antonio Spurs comparison, but it's not the Danny Greens and Kawhi Leonards of the world that make that team. Those players are able to thrive because they play off 3 star guys that consistently put pressure on the defense in Parker, Manu and Duncan.
    Read. My. Posts.

    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Umm Giannis is a good shot creator and a better shooter than you would think. 33% from three in his rookie season is not bad. Giannis is a SF who can run an offensive set and he has been doing this as a rookie so saying that ALL the play making goes on Lowry is a bit of a misnomer. Giannis would actually allow Lowry to play off the ball more than he can with DD (as DD is not a playmaker/running offensive sets)
    Also add in that Val should be able to handle a bigger role next season, as will Ross.

    Giannis (as is) will give us more "guys capable of creating their own baskets" than DD. Also don't know why you are implying that DD is good at creating his won shot...DD is not very good at creating his own shot, and mainly relies on the pin down screens to be able to get his offense.

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    Giannis offensively is a SF but he is rail thin and lacks strength. His length helps with steals and shot defense but he gets bullied by bigger players. He is a couple of years away from being a good player. Wiggins and Gianis will probably be all-stars but Wiggins will get there sooner. Gianni's is still all potential vs good

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  20. #176
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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    Giannis offensively is a SF but he is rail thin and lacks strength. His length helps with steals and shot defense but he gets bullied by bigger players. He is a couple of years away from being a good player. Wiggins and Gianis will probably be all-stars but Wiggins will get there sooner. Gianni's is still all potential vs good
    I agree. He will never be all that strong, but I doubt it will hold him back much defensively because he is so long. As long as he is quick with his feet and is able to slide in front of the drive then he will be a very good defender. His length will allow him to play off people, as well as block them if they take him into the post, this is why he gets referenced to Durant so often. Obviously he will still need to get stronger, and the strength will help.

    His offensive game will suffer the most as strength is what will hold him back from getting to and finishing at the rim.

    He is a big project. I would say that by his 3rd season is when he starts to come into his own, next year is going to have a few speed bumps as he tries to do more and use his shot more.

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    Giannis could be like McGrady drafted too soon becoming a superstar when he is an RFA. Wiggins will be good rookie season

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    At that point however it would be best to hold his RFA rights

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    At that point however it would be best to hold his RFA rights
    Damn wookie, you and shump just wrote essays on essays about Dixon waiters

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    The question is what timetable are the Bucks projecting to be competitive. They should dump Sanders and get Embid they are prob at least three years away.

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