This is a shitty conversation... sorry fellas but there is no way Dion Waiters should be able to illicit such long paragraphs. The guy is a legit scrub.
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I just think that Waiters ability to handle and score as a sixth man is a very valuable skill to a team concept. I like one primary scorer off the bench, rather than having all the scoring punch in our starting unit, because it balances the team so your bench can hold or even extend leads. The lack of bench was really evident when Pattman went down and we needed to lean heavily on Vasquez. I would sacrifice some scoring from our starting unit for more defense, and have a stronger 3 man rotation off the bench.
I would also look at Jordan Crawford in the offseason to fill this role. Or Carlos Delfino (less scoring, but more D) in a Bucks trade. PJ3 is a defensive specialist.
For example. A lineup of:
Lowry/De Colo
Ross/[Delfino]
Giannis/[PJ3]
Amir/Pattman
Val
is a very strong starting and bench unit. Every position is able to defend (except Crawford). Scoring from the starting unit is very balanced, makes us harder to defend. Depending on the development from the young guys that team has the potential to be a consistent top 4 team in the East for many years.
Similar thing with Waiters, except less D and a big question mark at SF...both things I covered in my original post.
Lowry/De Colo
Ross/Waiters
[PJ3]
Amir/Pattman
ValLast edited by OldSkoolCool; Mon Apr 14, 2014, 11:32 AM.
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enlightenment wrote: View PostThis is a shitty conversation... sorry fellas but there is no way Dion Waiters should be able to illicit such long paragraphs. The guy is a legit scrub.
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JV/Amir/TH/Hayes
Monroe/2PAt/TH/Novak
Ross/Barnes (trade for draft pick)/Novak
DeMar/Ross/Fields
Lowry/Vasquez/2nd rounder
We need more size and Monroe can do that for us. When JV subs out Amir comes in and plays along side Monroe, Monroe comes out 2Pat comes in to play with Amir. It would be a nice 4 more rotation. Same thing with DeMar, Barnes and Ross, those three would use up all the wing minutes, with maybe Vasquez taking the leftovers. If Barnes, JV and Ross can take another leap in their development we could have a contender.
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OldSkoolCool wrote: View PostI just think that Waiters ability to handle and score as a sixth man is a very valuable skill to a team concept. I like one primary scorer off the bench, rather than having all the scoring punch in our starting unit, because it balances the team so your bench can hold or even extend leads. The lack of bench was really evident when Pattman went down and we needed to lean heavily on Vasquez. I would sacrifice some scoring from our starting unit for more defense, and have a stronger 3 man rotation off the bench.
I would also look at Jordan Crawford in the offseason to fill this role. Or Carlos Delfino (less scoring, but more D) in a Bucks trade. PJ3 is a defensive specialist.
For example. A lineup of:
Lowry/De Colo
Ross/[Delfino]
Giannis/[PJ3]
Amir/Pattman
Val
is a very strong starting and bench unit. Every position is able to defend (except Crawford). Scoring from the starting unit is very balanced, makes us harder to defend. Depending on the development from the young guys that team has the potential to be a consistent top 4 team in the East for many years.
Similar thing with Waiters, except less D and a big question mark at SF...both things I covered in my original post.
Lowry/De Colo
Ross/Waiters
[PJ3]
Amir/Pattman
Val
*Sigh* I really shouldn't need to do this, but I'll explain why.
The first lineup only has 1 shot creator in it (Lowry), that's a serious problem. Especially considering that you don't even get any spacing either because you have 3 guys (Po, Amir, JV) that aren't good shooters. So now you're basically asking Lowry to break down the defense on every possession and try to get easy looks for everyone. He's not Chris Paul, so that's a major problem (even for CP3 that would be a huge issue).
The second lineup is also obviously worse. First of all you made the starting lineup weak as hell by having PJ3 in it. Secondly, you basically exchanged Waiters for Vasquez in the backup combo-guard role. At this point that is actually a SIGNIFICANT downgrade. Vasquez is equal to or better than Waiters at basically every relevant facet of the game.
PTS/36: Vasquez (15.1), Waiters (19.3) --- So Waiters scores more that's about it.
AST/36: Vasquez (6.5), Waiters (3.7)
REB/36: Vasquez (3.5), Waiters (3.4)
TS%: Vasquez (52.8%), Waiters (50.5%) --- Vasquez is a more efficient scorer
eFG%: Vasquez (49.4%), Waiters (47.7%) --- Vasquez is a better shooter, also makes more threes at the same percentage.
AST%: Vasquez (30.2%), Waiters (18.4%) --- Vasquez produces significantly more assists with his possessions, superior playmaker. His AST% to TO% ratio is also much better than Waiters'.
Neither player is a particularly good defender, but Vasquez at 6'6 has more size to match up with bigger twos defensively.
So there's no upgrade at all. You lose playmaking ability and exchange it for less efficient scoring. At the same time you also make our starting lineup worse by bringing in PJ3.Last edited by imanshumpert; Mon Apr 14, 2014, 12:08 PM.
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enlightenment wrote: View PostThis is a shitty conversation... sorry fellas but there is no way Dion Waiters should be able to illicit such long paragraphs. The guy is a legit scrub.
Do carry on.
Last edited by BigCamB; Mon Apr 14, 2014, 12:24 PM.
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saints91 wrote: View PostJV/Amir/TH/Hayes
Monroe/2PAt/TH/Novak
Ross/Barnes (trade for draft pick)/Novak
DeMar/Ross/Fields
Lowry/Vasquez/2nd rounder
We need more size and Monroe can do that for us. When JV subs out Amir comes in and plays along side Monroe, Monroe comes out 2Pat comes in to play with Amir. It would be a nice 4 more rotation. Same thing with DeMar, Barnes and Ross, those three would use up all the wing minutes, with maybe Vasquez taking the leftovers. If Barnes, JV and Ross can take another leap in their development we could have a contender.
imanshumpert wrote: View PostBoth of those lineups are worse than our current one...
*Sigh* I really shouldn't need to do this, but I'll explain why.
The first lineup only has 1 shot creator in it (Lowry), that's a serious problem. Especially considering that you don't even get any spacing either because you have 3 guys (Po, Amir, JV) that aren't good shooters. So now you're basically asking Lowry to break down the defense on every possession and try to get easy looks for everyone. He's not Chris Paul, so that's a major problem (even for CP3 that would be a huge issue).
Yes I admit, next season we would be worse. But the seasons after that I would have to argue that we would be much much better as Giannis develops. We would be a MUCH better defensive team, and a more rounded offensive team. The more people who are relied on to score makes the team stronger because if one person is shut down another steps up (SAS)
imanshumpert wrote: View PostThe second lineup is also obviously worse. First of all you made the starting lineup weak as hell by having PJ3 in it. Secondly, you basically exchanged Waiters for Vasquez in the backup combo-guard role. At this point that is actually a SIGNIFICANT downgrade. Vasquez is equal to or better than Waiters at basically every relevant facet of the game.
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OldSkoolCool wrote: View PostYes I admit, next season we would be worse. But the seasons after that I would have to argue that we would be much much better as Giannis develops. We would be a MUCH better defensive team, and a more rounded offensive team. The more people who are relied on to score makes the team stronger because if one person is shut down another steps up (SAS)
If Lowry gets shut down who's going to fill the void for him? You can't have a team entirely loaded with finishers/role players. You need multiple guys capable of creating their own baskets as well. It's cool to make the San Antonio Spurs comparison, but it's not the Danny Greens and Kawhi Leonards of the world that make that team. Those players are able to thrive because they play off 3 star guys that consistently put pressure on the defense in Parker, Manu and Duncan.
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imanshumpert wrote: View PostOnly going to respond to this because I've beaten the rest to death already.
If Lowry gets shut down who's going to fill the void for him? You can't have a team entirely loaded with finishers/role players. You need multiple guys capable of creating their own baskets as well. It's cool to make the San Antonio Spurs comparison, but it's not the Danny Greens and Kawhi Leonards of the world that make that team. Those players are able to thrive because they play off 3 star guys that consistently put pressure on the defense in Parker, Manu and Duncan.
OldSkoolCool wrote: View PostUmm Giannis is a good shot creator and a better shooter than you would think. 33% from three in his rookie season is not bad. Giannis is a SF who can run an offensive set and he has been doing this as a rookie so saying that ALL the play making goes on Lowry is a bit of a misnomer. Giannis would actually allow Lowry to play off the ball more than he can with DD (as DD is not a playmaker/running offensive sets)
Giannis (as is) will give us more "guys capable of creating their own baskets" than DD. Also don't know why you are implying that DD is good at creating his won shot...DD is not very good at creating his own shot, and mainly relies on the pin down screens to be able to get his offense.
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Giannis offensively is a SF but he is rail thin and lacks strength. His length helps with steals and shot defense but he gets bullied by bigger players. He is a couple of years away from being a good player. Wiggins and Gianis will probably be all-stars but Wiggins will get there sooner. Gianni's is still all potential vs good
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raptors999 wrote: View PostGiannis offensively is a SF but he is rail thin and lacks strength. His length helps with steals and shot defense but he gets bullied by bigger players. He is a couple of years away from being a good player. Wiggins and Gianis will probably be all-stars but Wiggins will get there sooner. Gianni's is still all potential vs good
His offensive game will suffer the most as strength is what will hold him back from getting to and finishing at the rim.
He is a big project. I would say that by his 3rd season is when he starts to come into his own, next year is going to have a few speed bumps as he tries to do more and use his shot more.
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OldSkoolCool wrote: View PostAt that point however it would be best to hold his RFA rights
And for the record I think you are the only guy on the forum who whines waiters I betterI'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson
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