Ideal Roster For Next Season? Vince Carter Involved?

[OldSkoolCool]

I like Perry Jones too, but only if we're giving up squat to get him (ie. cheap FA signing or flipping a vet like Hayes' expiring for him).

Salmons is giving up squat to get him.

Both of those trade scenarios are terrible. For starters, both of them have us taking back bad contracts. In the first deal, we're now stuck paying 5M a season for a decent backup centre for the next 2 years, and in the second one we're paying Mayo slightly less than what DeMar makes for the next 3 (and Mayo has been garbage all season). You're giving up a 23-4-4 all-star SG on an affordable contract for a prospect and the opportunity to absorb bad salary. We don't even increase our financial flexibility (Mayo/Zaza would have next to zero value in any trade), and it's not like Po is some surefire star prospect. He has great physical tools and has played OK as a rookie, but anyone being really realistic about his potential would probably put his ceiling somewhere around Nicolas Batum not Durant like some delusional people have been saying. So we're trading DeRozan and absorbing bad salary for the chance to maybe get Nicolas Batum? No thanks.

Bad contracts are required to make the money fit, no other way around it. I`m not a huge fan of Mayo but it was one of the 2 bad contracts that would work (and no I`m not touching Illyasovas contract because we are cluttered at PF already)

Giannis and Batum have completely different skill sets. Giannis and Durant have completely different skill sets. If there is any good comparison it would be Toni Kukoc. If I remember right, Kukoc was a hell of a player via passing, motor, ball handling and shooting. That sounds pretty close to Po to me...

I think he is going to be something special. Not in NBA scoring champ wise, or in 3pt shooting....but in his ability to have an absolutely complete game where he can't be shut down.

Giannis would be my target of choice. I think DD for Giannis+Zaza is pretty fair. i would probably ask for more as initial bargaining, but I would be happy with going as low as just Gianni

First of all I'd like an explanation of the bold. Waiters isn't even better than Ross let alone DeRozan. DeMar scores more efficiently despite being the focal point of his teams' offence and taking more shots. DeRozan is a better rebounder and better playmaker (you might want to argue that Waiters is better than breaking down defences, but the fact remains that DeRozan produces more assists while turning over the ball less despite seeing frequent double teams). DeRozan is a VASTLY superior finisher at the rim (nearly 70% at the rim compared to 52%), better at drawing fouls, and at least as good if not a better defensive player. Additionally, unlike Waiters, DeRozan is not undersized for his position.

There is nothing to suggest that Waiters is going to ever be better than DeRozan other than your own personal bias. I've already explained this to you before in another thread, but by every objective measure, Waiters is not and never will be better than DeRozan is right now.

Not to mention this trade doesn't even fix our problem at SF. This is just you replacing a player you don't like (DeRozan) with one you do like (Waiters). Makes no sense and thank God you're not the GM of our team because the Cavs would accept that and laugh all the way to the bank.

Umm...56% for DD, 52% for Waiters....but, Waiters is VASTLY superior in his ability to get to the rim (in about 1000 less minutes played, Waiters has nearly the same amount of attempts at the rim, 30 less). If you look at the numbers you will see that Waiters is pretty much on par with DD right now in every category (within 1%) except his true shooting percentages, FTs and TOV%. If you look at their per36 numbers, Waiters is only scoring 2 less ppg on 4 less FTA, so even right now he could effectively replace your ever so precious 20-4-4 player. Waiters is also much better at facilitating and dribbling than DD. Watch a Cavs game and you will see that there is a massive skill gap between Waiters and DD.

I did mention that this doesn't fix our SF problems. Read before you critique.

Waiters is going to be better than DD, he pretty much is already but playing less minutes under a disaster of a head coach. If I was the Cavs GM I wouldn't do this trade. Oh, and the first thing I would do is trade Kyrie.

[yabadabayolo]

Salmons is giving up squat to get him.



Bad contracts are required to make the money fit, no other way around it. I`m not a huge fan of Mayo but it was one of the 2 bad contracts that would work (and no I`m not touching Illyasovas contract because we are cluttered at PF already)

Giannis and Batum have completely different skill sets. Giannis and Durant have completely different skill sets. If there is any good comparison it would be Toni Kukoc. If I remember right, Kukoc was a hell of a player via passing, motor, ball handling and shooting. That sounds pretty close to Po to me...

I think he is going to be something special. Not in NBA scoring champ wise, or in 3pt shooting....but in his ability to have an absolutely complete game where he can't be shut down.

Giannis would be my target of choice. I think DD for Giannis+Zaza is pretty fair. i would probably ask for more as initial bargaining, but I would be happy with going as low as just Gianni




Umm...56% for DD, 52% for Waiters....but, Waiters is VASTLY superior in his ability to get to the rim (in about 1000 less minutes played, Waiters has nearly the same amount of attempts at the rim, 30 less). If you look at the numbers you will see that Waiters is pretty much on par with DD right now in every category (within 1%) except his true shooting percentages, FTs and TOV%. If you look at their per36 numbers, Waiters is only scoring 2 less ppg on 4 less FTA, so even right now he could effectively replace your ever so precious 20-4-4 player. Waiters is also much better at facilitating and dribbling than DD. Watch a Cavs game and you will see that there is a massive skill gap between Waiters and DD.

I did mention that this doesn't fix our SF problems. Read before you critique.

Waiters is going to be better than DD, he pretty much is already but playing less minutes under a disaster of a head coach. If I was the Cavs GM I wouldn't do this trade. Oh, and the first thing I would do is trade Kyrie.

I don't agree with you on waiters, but I would want derozans attitude over waiters' anyway of the week. Waiters is too self centred and just seems like one of the guys I just wanna punch in the face

[Joey]

I don't agree with you on waiters, but I would want derozans attitude over waiters' anyway of the week. Waiters is too self centred and just seems like one of the guys I just wanna punch in the face

Ya, I don't see the "Waiters > Demar" thing at all.. but to each their own.

[OldSkoolCool]

Yes his attitude has been bad in the past...but what if I were to say that that is changing?

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_r...ude-adjustment

http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/dion...njury-1.475770

He was off to a rough start, but over the last 30 games he has been really good. In 32 mpg he is averaging 19pts-4ast-3rb on 45% shooting and 38% from 3. More efficient on the same amount of usage as DD, but playing less so his per game averages are slightly lower.

[stooley]

Yes his attitude has been bad in the past...but what if I were to say that that is changing?

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_r...ude-adjustment

http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/dion...njury-1.475770

He was off to a rough start, but over the last 30 games he has been really good. In 32 mpg he is averaging 19pts-4ast-3rb on 45% shooting and 38% from 3. More efficient on the same amount of usage as DD, but playing less so his per game averages are slightly lower.

I'd just say for the marginal improvement (which I'm not necessarily sold on) that Waiters might provide over Demar, I don't see taking the risk on chemistry worth it what with losing DD's leadership and all the issues associated with Waiters.

[raptors999]

Waiter attitude isn't the problem but the marginal improvement over DD.If Toronto had Waiters I wouldn't trade him for DD.

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[imanshumpert]

Yes his attitude has been bad in the past...but what if I were to say that that is changing?

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_r...ude-adjustment

http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/dion...njury-1.475770

He was off to a rough start, but over the last 30 games he has been really good. In 32 mpg he is averaging 19pts-4ast-3rb on 45% shooting and 38% from 3. More efficient on the same amount of usage as DD, but playing less so his per game averages are slightly lower.

Waiters is not more efficient than DeRozan dammit.

Dion Waiters TS%: 50.7%
DeMar DeRozan TS%: 53.0%

Dion Waiters PPS: 1.12
DeMar DeRozan PPS: 1.27

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...waitedi01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...derozde01.html

He's a better three point shooter sure, but more efficient? No he isn't at all. Take note of the fact that DD is significantly more efficient actually, despite seeing regular double-teams and being the focal point of his team's offence.

Waiters is a bonafide chucker at this point. His TS% has been well below league average for his whole career, and he takes a shit-ton of shots that he obviously shouldn't be taking.

And you lied above when you said DeMar shoots 56% at the rim. DeMar shoots 70.7% from 0-3 feet (ie. at the damn rim) and Waiters shoots 51.8%.

The saddest part about this is that not only is DeMar better than Waiters right now, but his 2nd season (age 21, Waiters 22) was both higher volume and more efficient than Waiters. Stop spewing garbage.

[yabadabayolo]

Waiters is not more efficient than DeRozan dammit.

Dion Waiters TS%: 50.7%
DeMar DeRozan TS%: 53.0%

Dion Waiters PPS: 1.12
DeMar DeRozan PPS: 1.27

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...waitedi01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...derozde01.html

He's a better three point shooter sure, but more efficient? No he isn't at all. Take note of the fact that DD is significantly more efficient actually, despite seeing regular double-teams and being the focal point of his team's offence.

Waiters is a bonafide chucker at this point. His TS% has been well below league average for his whole career, and he takes a shit-ton of shots that he obviously shouldn't be taking.

And you lied above when you said DeMar shoots 56% at the rim. DeMar shoots 70.7% from 0-3 feet (ie. at the damn rim) and Waiters shoots 51.8%.

The saddest part about this is that not only is DeMar better than Waiters right now, but his 2nd season (age 21, Waiters 22) was both higher volume and more efficient than Waiters. Stop spewing garbage.

Thank you, I knew the wookie was just spewing shit

[BigCamB]

Waiters is not more efficient than DeRozan dammit.


And you lied above when you said DeMar shoots 56% at the rim. DeMar shoots 70.7% from 0-3 feet (ie. at the damn rim) and Waiters shoots 51.8%.

.

Doubt he lied, not intentionally. Guess he took the 56% that DeRozan shoots in the circle from the nba.com shotchart, I typically always do that and associate it with "at the rim", and it's often used as that as well.
Anyway, from your stats... DeRozan only makes 15% of his total field goals from 0-3 feet, compared to 30% for Waiters, 28% for Harden, 34% for Wade etc, so that helps his percentage

I think he is going to be something special. Not in NBA scoring champ wise, or in 3pt shooting....but in his ability to have an absolutely complete game where he can't be shut down.

Giannis would be my target of choice. .

As I'm sure the Bucks do. no way they would trade him for DeMar.

[yabadabayolo]

Waiter attitude isn't the problem but the marginal improvement over DD.If Toronto had Waiters I wouldn't trade him for DD.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Honestly, waiters looks like maybe a better Jamal Crawford. They both score, both are gs who can play pg. both get assists. And waiters is only 2 years younger than derozan so it's not like we get younger with that deal

[007]

Demar is still young, he's not done improving yet.

I hope.

[psrs1]

For those posters that want VC back you should watch tape of the Dallas Phoenix game last night. VC was brutal.

[Jordan Evans]

Demar is still young, he's not done improving yet.

I hope.

I'm almost certain he's not done.

[Raps76]

For those posters that want VC back you should watch tape of the Dallas Phoenix game last night. VC was brutal.

Meh it's one game, his numbers for the year speaks for itself. I think he'll be comfortable here and able to give us what we need on the 2nd unit.

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[OldSkoolCool]

Waiters is not more efficient than DeRozan dammit.

Dion Waiters TS%: 50.7%
DeMar DeRozan TS%: 53.0%

Dion Waiters PPS: 1.12
DeMar DeRozan PPS: 1.27

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...waitedi01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...derozde01.html

He's a better three point shooter sure, but more efficient? No he isn't at all. Take note of the fact that DD is significantly more efficient actually, despite seeing regular double-teams and being the focal point of his team's offence.

Waiters is a bonafide chucker at this point. His TS% has been well below league average for his whole career, and he takes a shit-ton of shots that he obviously shouldn't be taking.

And you lied above when you said DeMar shoots 56% at the rim. DeMar shoots 70.7% from 0-3 feet (ie. at the damn rim) and Waiters shoots 51.8%.

The saddest part about this is that not only is DeMar better than Waiters right now, but his 2nd season (age 21, Waiters 22) was both higher volume and more efficient than Waiters. Stop spewing garbage.

Way to cherry pick a stat. Over the last 30 games:

Dion Waiters eFG%: 50.4% TS%: 52.8
DeMar DeRozan eFG%: 44.3% TS%: 54.8

From the floor, Waiters is a more efficient shooter, however DD does get to the line a lot, which boosts his numbers significantly.

Their points per possession are almost identical. Waiters a bonafide chucker?? If so then DD is as well.

The second season was not more efficient for DD (I'm talking about last 30 games Waiters, he had a rough start). DD was not even close in assists and used way less (29 vs 23)

The only thing separating DD and Waiters is the amount of FT's that DD takes, that's it. However I think Waiter will be better in the future, and Waiters has a better skill set in terms of making the team better. Spout stats at me all you want, but you cannot quantify skill set with numbers. I have told you repeatedly to watch some footage of him vs DD, if you don't think that Waiters has a better skill set that makes his teammates better I don't know what kind of basketball you like to watch, but god it must be some ugly shit...

It has to be said that this is my secondary trade idea and I would much prefer to do the Bucks trade. The Waiters trade has some associated holes with it whereas the Bucks one is a much better trade.

Thank you, I knew the wookie was just spewing shit

And yet you are following cherry picked stats

Doubt he lied, not intentionally. Guess he took the 56% that DeRozan shoots in the circle from the nba.com shotchart, I typically always do that and associate it with "at the rim", and it's often used as that as well.
Anyway, from your stats... DeRozan only makes 15% of his total field goals from 0-3 feet, compared to 30% for Waiters, 28% for Harden, 34% for Wade etc, so that helps his percentage



As I'm sure the Bucks do. no way they would trade him for DeMar.

I took it as such as well...getting into the paint is typically "at the rim". The fact that Waiters gets their so often is really encouraging, and he opens up a lot of ball movement off the penetration that is really valuable.


The Bucks love Giannis. But I was thinking IF they get the number 1, they should draft Wiggins. Wiggins and Giannis are both SF's, they are too thin to play a SF-PF combo, and I don't think playing Wiggins or Giannis at the SG would work too well. Also consider that DD is an all-star and the Bucks do not like to be out of the playoff mix. Turning a "potential" player into an established star at SG, while still having a potential superstar at SF is a pretty solid move. They also offload a bad contract. There a lot of good things about this trade from the Bucks perspective.