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Thread: DeMar DeRozan: The new Jrue Holiday?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default DeMar DeRozan: The new Jrue Holiday?

    I've been meaning to start this thread for a week since I read this article but just never got around to it.

    I know I've raised this point along with a couple of other posters before reading this. (Out of curiousity, is the Shantz poster here at RR one and the same with the author of this post?)

    Anyways:

    Just two years ago, the Philadelphia 76ers were a playoff team. Granted, they just squeaked into the playoffs, but they were a playoff team nonetheless and had youth on their side. As a front office, they needed to do something drastic in order to try to contend. They shipped Andre Iquodala to Denver in a four team trade that brought Andrew Bynum back to Philadelphia.

    Flash forward a year, and everything had gone wrong. Andrew Bynum never suited up for the 76ers and the franchise was in desperate need of a new direction. They found it on draft night, by shipping Jrue Holiday to the New Orleans Pelicans.

    Now, for the Toronto Raptors, the circumstances can’t be much more similar. A young playoff team, built on a foundation of their dynamic backcourt, and with offseason uncertainty over Kyle Lowry‘s contract situation. Masai Ujiri finds himself with some very interesting possibilities this summer. Ultimately, all of his decisions must come down to one question: What is the ceiling of this current roster? If Ujiri can’t see ways to build upon the current foundation and make a contender, then a change of direction will need to take place. And the most viable option to do so might just be to trade DeMar DeRozan.
    What could make DeMar even more valuable than Holiday, may be the position he plays. The current depth of starting point guards across the league is deeper than it may have ever been, but shooting guard is a different story. There are few top-tier shooting guards in the league today, as there has been a gravitation towards 3-and-D type players. Based on the numbers, is it unreasonable for DeMar to be viewed as a top five player for his position?

    Ujiri has always said that his only goal for the Raptors is to bring an NBA Championship to the City of Toronto. If he believes that trading DeRozan could bring him closer to that goal, then Raptor fans can only hope that he can bring back the type of trade that Philadelphia got for Holiday.

    http://hoopshabit.com/2014/03/30/dem...-jrue-holiday/

    If you can get a Philly/Holiday type return for DeRozan, I think you have to trade him. Why?

    1) Ross - no Ross doesn't produce like DD but he also isn't the focal like DD. Ross is also a superior defender on the other side of the ball.

    2) Financial flexibility - shedding DD's salary in exchange for rookie contracts will allow the Raptors to be bigger free agent players in 2015 and 2016.

    3) Long term planning and stability - JV and Ross can be Raptors for the next 6-7 seasons. Any draft picks selected by Toronto will be Raptors for 8-9 years if the Raptors choose. DeRozan could walk for nothing in 2 seasons.

    4) Ujiri and Weltman - Fantastic history of identifying talent in the draft.

    5) Ownership - they will pay luxury tax for a winner. The way to do that is not free agency. You are limited. The way to paying luxury tax and keeping a talented core is through Bird Rights. Raptors need to acquire as many pieces as possible that have Bird Rights. It is then you can take advantage of multi-billion dollar ownership pockets.



    This summer is going to be interesting. Masai has said he'd give the team an opportunity to see what they can do. But he has always referred to 2013-14. He has never said anything beyond 2014.


    Considering trading DD for two possible lottery picks is not hating. It is a serious question and if the possibility is out there, I am not sure you can say no.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    If the Raptors get a complete desperation move like the Pelicans. GSW are a good candidate maybe the Clippers especially if they fall short in the Playoffs. Mavericks too.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    If the Raptors get a complete desperation move like the Pelicans. GSW are a good candidate maybe the Clippers especially if they fall short in the Playoffs. Mavericks too.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    Golden State is one of the only teams in the league that won't be looking for an upgrade at the wing. They have Iggy, Thompson and a still developing Barnes. Why on Earth would they trade assets for DeMar?

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    i'm so torn on this...as this would be the definition of selling high.

    I would strongly consider DeRozan to Detroit for Monroe, pick, Datome (who I consider a De Colo like gem)

    The key for me is... I really need to see how its a step forward or at the very least a side step in order to better move forward. It doesn't happen for just picks, gotta have someone who can contribute step in

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    i'm so torn on this...as this would be the definition of selling high.

    I would strongly consider DeRozan to Detroit for Monroe, pick, Datome (who I consider a De Colo like gem)

    The key for me is... I really need to see how its a step forward or at the very least a side step in order to better move forward. It doesn't happen for just picks, gotta have someone who can contribute step in
    I wouldn't.

    Monroe can walk in 4 years as UFA.

    The concerns about his play are also a consideration but the main thing is about trying to build a championship team.

    If you have pieces you can essentially guarantee will be around for 8-9 years that gives you a lot of time to find the right chemistry and pieces.

    I feel really good about Weltman's and Ujiri's ability to draft and find players who can contribute right away.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't.

    Monroe can walk in 4 years as UFA.

    The concerns about his play are also a consideration but the main thing is about trying to build a championship team.

    If you have pieces you can essentially guarantee will be around for 8-9 years that gives you a lot of time to find the right chemistry and pieces.

    I feel really good about Weltman's and Ujiri's ability to draft and find players who can contribute right away.
    I agree, 1st or 2nd year guys or draft picks are going to need to be center pieces if we are going to cash in on DeMar.

    I see Denver really needing for a starting shooting guard. I would take next year's pick (heavily protected) plus Gallinari. They might want to get out of Galinari's contract due to his injury prone-ness. We could be a great landing spot for him playing a more half court game and using his skills at the SF.

    I would be willing to use DD as a Holiday-type in that sense....

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    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    I would do It if we can get back something like Philly got for Holiday

    Also im sure a bunch of people on RR are gonna say your just a DD hater LOOOOOL
    If a trade like this happened it would benefit us but I only do it if the trade is for like a pick in the range of 3-8 and we can get back a solid rotation player
    He's 2 years away from being 2 years away, but his wingspan is already here .

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Yabadabayolo's Avatar
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    I guess I would trade dd for wiggans, a filler and a 2015 draft pick...










    But I don't think that will happen. I see Minnesota could possibly offer their pick shaved and maybe a future pick but I don't see that happening either.

    But Phoenix could trade 2 picks and fry, that I believe more possible.

    I personally wouldn't do any of those though

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    Quote Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
    I guess I would trade dd for wiggans, a filler and a 2015 draft pick...










    But I don't think that will happen. I see Minnesota could possibly offer their pick shaved and maybe a future pick but I don't see that happening either.

    But Phoenix could trade 2 picks and fry, that I believe more possible.

    I personally wouldn't do any of those though
    Fuckkkk I meant to say shved not shaved*

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    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    I trade that seem possible would be
    Lakers 1st round pick ( Vonleh maybe?) and Jordan Hill/ Robert Sacre
    He's 2 years away from being 2 years away, but his wingspan is already here .

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Yabadabayolo's Avatar
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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    I trade that seem possible would be
    Lakers 1st round pick ( Vonleh maybe?) and Jordan Hill/ Robert Sacre
    I don't think lakers would trade for derozan now that they signed Kobe all that cash...

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    Quote Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
    I don't think lakers would trade for derozan now that they signed Kobe all that cash...
    DeRozan only makes about 10Mill a year thats not a big contract at all
    He's 2 years away from being 2 years away, but his wingspan is already here .

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Yabadabayolo's Avatar
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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    DeRozan only makes about 10Mill a year thats not a big contract at all
    Yea but Kobe and dd play the same position, each would be undersized and not good enough on d to guard the lebroms in this league

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    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
    Yea but Kobe and dd play the same position, each would be undersized and not good enough on d to guard the lebroms in this league
    Im sure they understand Kobe is breaking down he not gonna play 40MPG anymore and once Kobe retires which would be soon DD can take over the position for them and If kobe plays Im sure DD could play alongside him
    He's 2 years away from being 2 years away, but his wingspan is already here .

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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    DeRozan only makes about 10Mill a year thats not a big contract at all
    i agree with this. i think the "financial flexibility" angle is wrong at this point for demar. If he stays the status quo from now, he is a bargain at 10 million. but if he continues to improve, which he has done year after year, his contract just gets cheaper and cheaper. rookie deals are the best in the league if you get a great or very good player, but if you trade for the top pick(pure hypothetical) and he turns out to be darko 2.0 then that is 4 years of guaranteed cap money gone. There is a saying about the devil we know somewhere...wait i had something for this
    For The Win

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    Minny could offer Love , cap relief and picks but why would they and Love is an RFA. Indy could but then you're trading within the conference. Any team that falls short in the playoffs may bet the farm next year.

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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    Minny could offer Love , cap relief and picks but why would they and Love is an RFA. Indy could but then you're trading within the conference. Any team that falls short in the playoffs may bet the farm next year.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    I think for love we would have to give up dd, Ross, and like 3 unprotected picks.

    Love is actually pretty good

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    It all depends on Lowry. If he walks, I have no problem shopping DeMar starting this summer. Unfortunately, we may not know Lowry's intent until after the draft. But with Lowry gone, this team can't really make any noise for the next couple of years, so may as well commit to a rebuild.

    If Lowry stays, DeMar's deal is a good one, and fully movable if an amazing offer comes along. And if not, and he decides to opt out before the 4th year of his deal, that's no big deal. We'll have oodles of capspace to work with, and Ross will be around to lock down one of the starting wing spots.

    I don't think Masai needs to feel any pressure to do anything drastic and he can just keep an ear open to options that become available.

    I very strongly doubt that DeMar brings 2 quality lottery picks back in a deal. Not to be forgotten in this comparison with Holiday...NOP has absolutely terrible management, and one of the picks (Nerlens Noel) was in what could easily turn out to be the worst draft in NBA history, and they really didn't protect the 2nd pick (for this year) enough. So if the expectation is to get a 2014 lottery pick and 2015* one as well....I wouldn't get my hopes too high. This draft is still quite strong, and next year's doesn't look bad either. Would need to con a poorly managed team...but many of them have already dealt away this year's or future picks. And if we're talking late-lottery picks, I don't think that's very good value (say two #12s in a row* or something). *EDIT: Briefly forgot the picks would have to be 2 years apart unless the deal happens on draft day (what NOP and PHI did last year).

    If Lowry re-signs and you trade DeMar for picks, you're probably taking a step back for the next couple of years and keeping Lowry at a fairly high price. Why not just let Lowry walk or S&T him? I think if Lowry stays, DeMar is pretty safe here until Masai gets an offer he can't refuse, or DeMar opts out (which he will certainly do if he has another couple years like this).

    This summer could be interesting, it could also be very tame. And I think the key is that Masai doesn't need to do anything drastic. This team is in a good position with assets and flexibility, as well as a fair amount of leverage, even some limited amount with Lowry's situation.

    Also, I feel like Ujiri and Weltman's draft prowess gets super exaggerated. It's still a difficult process. They both have hits and misses, so even if they do a fairly good job, it doesn't mean you can easily replace a starting all-star level player with a couple of picks. So again, no need to feel pressed into doing something.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Apr 6th, 2014 at 06:52 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    It all depends on Lowry. If he walks, I have no problem shopping DeMar starting this summer. Unfortunately, we may not know Lowry's intent until after the draft. But with Lowry gone, this team can't really make any noise for the next couple of years, so may as well commit to a rebuild.

    If Lowry stays, DeMar's deal is a good one, and fully movable if an amazing offer comes along. And if not, and he decides to opt out before the 4th year of his deal, that's no big deal. We'll have oodles of capspace to work with, and Ross will be around to lock down one of the starting wing spots.

    I don't think Masai needs to feel any pressure to do anything drastic and he can just keep an ear open to options that become available.

    I very strongly doubt that DeMar brings 2 quality lottery picks back in a deal. Not to be forgotten in this comparison with Holiday...NOP has absolutely terrible management, and one of the picks (Nerlens Noel) was in what could easily turn out to be the worst draft in NBA history, and they really didn't protect the 2nd pick (for this year) enough. So if the expectation is to get a 2014 lottery pick and 2015 one as well....I wouldn't get my hopes too high. This draft is still quite strong, and next year's doesn't look bad either. Would need to con a poorly managed team...but many of them have already dealt away this year's or future picks. And if we're talking late-lottery picks, I don't think that's very good value (say two #12s in a row or something).

    If Lowry re-signs and you trade DeMar for picks, you're probably taking a step back for the next couple of years and keeping Lowry at a fairly high price. Why not just let Lowry walk or S&T him? I think if Lowry stays, DeMar is pretty safe here until Masai gets an offer he can't refuse, or DeMar opts out (which he will certainly do if he has another couple years like this).

    This summer could be interesting, it could also be very tame. And I think the key is that Masai doesn't need to do anything drastic. This team is in a good position with assets and flexibility, as well as a fair amount of leverage, even some limited amount with Lowry's situation.

    Also, I feel like Ujiri and Weltman's draft prowess gets super exaggerated. It's still a difficult process. They both have hits and misses, so even if they do a fairly good job, it doesn't mean you can easily replace a starting all-star level player with a couple of picks. So again, no need to feel pressed into doing something.

    I'd actually take the other side.

    I'd rather see Lowry signed at DD money for next 4 seasons.

    I think that keep Raps competitive (ie. playoff team) and opens door for big free agent signing in 2015 or 2016 in addition to draft additions.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'd actually take the other side.

    I'd rather see Lowry signed at DD money for next 4 seasons.

    I think that keep Raps competitive (ie. playoff team) and opens door for big free agent signing in 2015 or 2016 in addition to draft additions.
    But I think of it like....How happy will Lowry be with a team that is likely to be worse for the next couple of years? Will it make some of his old antagonistic ways resurface? Will this hurt his performance? The team's? Youth development?

    Chemistry can be fragile, and a situation can go south quite fast with the wrong kind of change.

    *EDIT: And even if it doesn't go south, you're paying for prime Lowry when the team is not likely to improve, and then when you can sign someone, you'll probably need to be looking for Lowry's replacement. I just see Lowry and DeMar as very much a package deal at least for the next year or two.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Apr 6th, 2014 at 06:56 PM.

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