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Thread: DeMar DeRozan: The new Jrue Holiday?

  1. #141
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    He's also said in this thread how good he thinks DeMar has become, and how even hating his game, value for a trade would have to be off the charts.

    Sometimes someone just doesn't like a guy's game. Carmelo Anthony is one of the best scorers (maybe the best) of the past decade, and I can't stand his game at all. Howard has been the best C in the game for pretty much the same span, and I detest his game.
    Yeah, expecting nothing less than two near guaranteed lotto picks for a player is the ultimate hate after all.

    I don't like his game. It doesn't mean I don't have respect for his game or think he is ineffective.

    As I said earlier in the thread I am a Raptor fan first, individual players fan second. If JV and Ross weren't on rookie deals I'd be wondering what they could fetch too.
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    do you not though?

    losing lowry means we don't have the core that put together this run anymore. If we lose lowry, our window shifts from the next few years to 3-5 years away.
    That's your opinion.....I think this team will still have the core minus Lowry and could be good with or without Lowry (that's my opinion). To say what you're saying is to take away from what the coaches, Demar, PP, Vasquez, TRoss, JV, Amir down to the 10th guy has done to help get this team where it is. One person does not make a team. There are plenty of good point guards in the league and coming into the league.

    I know a lot of posters think we're doomed if Lowry leaves, but earlier in the season the same posters thought we were doomed even with him here.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    If only it were that cut and dry ...

    Not sure why the other team would do this trade then? If they could just wait a couple seasons and get the better (than an All-Star) player.
    It is a matter if fit and the goals of the organization. I'm sure Milwaukee would love to get back to the playoffs sooner rather than later and may want to cash in future pieces to get better now.

    Or if the other teams thinks DD would fit great with their roster and were able to offer us some collection of players that better suits our roster...

    Like you said it isn't cut and dry

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I don't know what he can return. I have an idea of what I'd like him to return.

    First off, I think a top 5 pick is possible, but not too likely, especially this year...though quite easily possible in other years.
    Thing to remember: Ray Allen at 32 years old was traded for a 5th pick. The whole deal was Allen and Big Baby (newly drafted) for the 5th pick (Jeff Green), Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak. Now Ray and DeMar are different players in styles of game, but similar in the sense that if DeMar keeps playing this well, he's an all-star who can't be the alpha dog on a championship team. That's Allen for a top 5 pick in a pretty strong draft, and 2 decent quality players, one young and one older (though Szcerbiak was still producing when he played, he was already physically deteriorating).

    So looking at that, and saying these are just examples that I myself am not sure I'd actually do....

    -Scenario 1: A top 5-6 pick along with one or two capable rotation players. Not sure I'd do this, but I would listen to a team's offer.
    Possible example -> Milwaukee's pick this year + Pachulia /Ilyasova + Delfino for DeMar (and possibly filler like Tyler or Novak...)
    Toronto maintains 2016 cap space (possibly increases with Ilyasova and Delfino), gets 2 rotation players, and a top 5 pick (Exum, Parker or Randle).
    Caveat....This only could possibly happen if Milwaukee drops out of the top 2 spots (Still don't think they'd trade the pick, but can't imagine they would if it's a first or second overall).

    -Scenario 2: 2 lottery picks (unlikely either is top 5-6) and young player with upside (or maybe serviceable role player in his prime). Could be pretty intriguing.
    Possible example -> 2014 and 2015 picks from Orlando (they have an extra 2014 one so they can trade two in a row I believe) and Victor Oladipo for DeMar (and filler if needed)
    Toronto gets two shots to get a decent player in the draft two years in a row, but given they could be lower lottery picks, Orlando gives up their prized youngster.
    Don't know if/why Orlando would do this, but my thoughts involve...Oladipo looks smaller than the 6'4'' he's listed at, and doesn't seem to have a natural fit at either guard position. Looks like 6th man material to me, even if it's a very high-calibre, near all-star 6th man. They have picks to spare as well. Afflalo also becomes fully expendable so they can use him to get something else.
    Note: Orlando could also work in the 1st scenario...their higher pick this year + Afflalo + Harkless....I might accept that.

    -Scenario 3: an established underrated or lower end star + a pick or prospect
    Possible example -> Atlanta sends us Al Horford + a 1st rounder (unlikely, but would want it) or Dennis Schroeder (might be possible) for DeMar and filler (our 2nd rounder and/or Tyler Hansbrough?).
    Could also sub Horford out for Millsap in this deal.
    I think there's no way Atlanta would actually do such a deal, but if they called me offering Al Horford, I'd struggle to contain my excitement. If it's Millsap, definitely needs to include a 1st rounder because of age difference with DeMar, and since Horford is really who I'd want.

    Again, I'm not saying I'd necessarily do any of these deals, but I'd definitely consider it and depending on makeup of the deal could be totally fine with them.
    Well I am definitely undercutting his value.

    Seems to me he is valued here at a rotation player+2 firsts (lotto), or a big time prospect and a first (Lotto). To put it in perspective Harden only returned two very late lottos and an established Kevin Martin and he was the reigning sixth man. Some of the proposed trades are ridiculously lopsided. Oladipo is up for rookie of the year, and you also want 2 picks for DeMar? Milwaukee giving up probably Exum (a top 5 guy) and a good SG (Delfino) for DeMar? Horford is an allstar plus a late lotto pick and a prospect for DeMar and a second rounder??

    I think that you guys are over-evaluating DeMars value. He is only a first time all-star with only 2 years on his contract and has some holes in his game (not to hate, just being realistic)

    I would put his value at a bad contract for a 5-8 pick or an established player and a late lotto or a high value prospect plus a later first round pick

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Yeah...something like this. If Lowry walks, it just makes a lot more sense to consider it.
    This scenario I think the option is to go the Holiday route and do rebuild around Ross/Val, who hopefully know how to return to winning and can teach the new kids...

  5. #144
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    yeah, and if he gives a bunch of reasons why, its a justified opinion. it may not be a correct opinion, but using the term "hater" without addressing his explanation, just puts you on that level.
    Thank you for at least listening to a different opinion whether you agree or not.

    Also not putting words in my mouth is refreshing too.
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Not likely anyone wants fields or Hayes without it being as filler.

    Amir could have value. I'm not sure though ifu get at least equal value back. Might be worth a non lottery first rounder though. Otherwise probably just filler or making a lateral talent move for a hopefully better fit role-wise.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    I was talking mainly as filler.....

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    That's your opinion.....I think this team will still have the core minus Lowry and could be good with or without Lowry (that's my opinion). To say what you're saying is to take away from what the coaches, Demar, PP, Vasquez, TRoss, JV, Amir down to the 10th guy has done to help get this team where it is. One person does not make a team. There are plenty of good point guards in the league and coming into the league.

    I know a lot of posters think we're doomed if Lowry leaves, but earlier in the season the same posters thought we were doomed even with him here.
    Fair enough on the bold.

    But I'd say Lowry is the engine that drives this team. And almost everyone, everywhere seems to agree with that.

    It may be that we're still a decent team, even without Lowry, that has a shot at making some noise in the playoffs. I really hope that's true.

    But losing Lowry will at least force us a step backwards. And since we're already a step or two away from our goal as a franchise, that leaves a lot of ground to make up.

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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    yeah, and if he gives a bunch of reasons why, its a justified opinion. it may not be a correct opinion, but using the term "hater" without addressing his explanation, just puts you on that level.
    LOL Who said i didn't address his explanation? Our hypothetical conversation is getting a tad weird now. Thanks for your opinion though. Just curious.....Is there ever a situtation where your allowed to call someone out for being a hater? If so, when would this be allowed?

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I was talking mainly as filler.....
    That's the crux of this team's position; aside from DeRozan, the team really doesn't have any highly valued assets that also make a decent salary. In order for a team to take any 'filler' from Toronto, they'd have to start with Ross, Valanciunas or a 1st round pick, to return anything of value. At that point, I'd much rather simply offer DeRozan and keep the sophomores and 1st round picks.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Apr 7th, 2014 at 03:18 PM.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    LOL Who said i didn't address his explanation? Our hypothetical conversation is getting a tad weird now. Thanks for your opinion though. Just curious.....Is there ever a situtation where your allowed to call someone out for being a hater? If so, when would this be allowed?
    If somebody said to dump DeRozan for a 2nd round pick?

    Brainstorming trade ideas with an expected return that would widely be considered fair market value for an all-star - regardless of the motivation behind the brainstorming - is anything but hate.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    LOL Who said i didn't address his explanation? Our hypothetical conversation is getting a tad weird now. Thanks for your opinion though. Just curious.....Is there ever a situtation where your allowed to call someone out for being a hater? If so, when would this be allowed?
    Edit: but agreed, this is getting a little dumb. I think I've confused myself haha. I just really don't like the term hater. It's a kind of straw man argument. Like referring to "the left" or "the right" in political debates. it turns a discussion into a shouting match.

    and... actually, i'm just gonna delete this comment. it didn't make any sense lol
    Last edited by stooley; Mon Apr 7th, 2014 at 03:26 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    It is a matter if fit and the goals of the organization. I'm sure Milwaukee would love to get back to the playoffs sooner rather than later and may want to cash in future pieces to get better now.

    Or if the other teams thinks DD would fit great with their roster and were able to offer us some collection of players that better suits our roster...

    Like you said it isn't cut and dry



    Well I am definitely undercutting his value.

    Seems to me he is valued here at a rotation player+2 firsts (lotto), or a big time prospect and a first (Lotto). To put it in perspective Harden only returned two very late lottos and an established Kevin Martin and he was the reigning sixth man. Some of the proposed trades are ridiculously lopsided. Oladipo is up for rookie of the year, and you also want 2 picks for DeMar? Milwaukee giving up probably Exum (a top 5 guy) and a good SG (Delfino) for DeMar? Horford is an allstar plus a late lotto pick and a prospect for DeMar and a second rounder??

    I think that you guys are over-evaluating DeMars value. He is only a first time all-star with only 2 years on his contract and has some holes in his game (not to hate, just being realistic)

    I would put his value at a bad contract for a 5-8 pick or an established player and a late lotto or a high value prospect plus a later first round pick



    This scenario I think the option is to go the Holiday route and do rebuild around Ross/Val, who hopefully know how to return to winning and can teach the new kids...
    The harden situation was unique because OKC refuses to pay tax and thus forced a deadline onto themselves. They basically abandoned leverage so they could avoid a financial situation they don't want, and settled for worse value.

    Also harden was not yet an all star and was looking for max money, whereas demar is a proven all star on a pretty cheap deal.

    EDIT: The deals I propose definitely seem Raptors-favouring...but that's the point...

    Orlando: Oladipo...Could be rookie of the year in arguably the worst rookie-class ever. He's not particularly good at anything. He looks a bit undersized out there for SG, and underskilled for PG. I like him, but I can't help but see 6th man type player when I watch him play, or inefficient starting SG. Which is what some people used to say about DeMar. Could be right this time, could be wrong again...the 2 picks is assuming that they'd both be late lottery picks. It's entirely possible and not at all unlikely that all 3 of those assets fail to become as good a player as DeMar is now. For a higher pick (like their own pick this year), I said in the second scenario they could fit with Afflalo and Harkless (veteran at his peak, and limited youngster).

    Milwaukee: Delfino is 31 right now and just had major foot surgery. He'll be lucky to stay healthy and play at a similar level as he used to. Pachulia and Ilyasova are good role players...But if Ilyasova can't recapture his old form, he's paid quite a bit, and Pachulia is fully replaceable, and is also probably overpaid. Basically you're getting their pick first and foremost, a role player, and a guy you probably right off and anything he gives you is a bonus.

    Atlanta: It was Horford and a pick OR prospect, not and, for DeMar and a 2nd rounder and/or Hansbrough (for example). I said in my own post I don't see why Atlanta would do it, but that if an offer like this came around, I'd struggle to contain myself.

    As has been pointed out many a time, the idea is to get a "godfather" deal. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense to trade.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Apr 7th, 2014 at 04:30 PM.

  15. #152
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    The harden situation was unique because OKC refuses to pay tax and thus forced a deadline onto themselves. They basically abandoned leverage so they could avoid a financial situation they don't want, and settled for worse value.

    Also harden was not yet an all star and was looking for max money, whereas demar is a proven all star on a pretty cheap deal.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    The Harden trade is also widely considered a terrible one for OKC. So lets avoid that lol.

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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    The Harden trade is also widely considered a terrible one for OKC. So lets avoid that lol.
    They've also just generally done a bad job in trades. Which means poor asset management. And they're unwilling to pay over the tax. They draft fairly well and that's about it.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    They've also just generally done a bad job in trades. Which means poor asset management. And they're unwilling to pay over the tax. They draft fairly well and that's about it.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
    I think being unwilling to pay the tax has put them behind the 8-ball in trades.

    Teams know they are at a disadvantage because of that when it comes to negotiations.
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    Quote BigCamB wrote: View Post
    The " stop hating on DeMar, playa hatazzzzzzs" crowd need to chill out.
    I know this is super off topic and I'm sorry if I'm wrong




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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think being unwilling to pay the tax has put them behind the 8-ball in trades.

    Teams know they are at a disadvantage because of that when it comes to negotiations.
    It also means that cost controllable assets, such as the draft picks that were acquired for Harden, have even greater meaning to OKC than they would for many other teams in the league. The hope was that Toronto's pick (via Houston) would have been higher than it turned out to be.

    Situationally, OKC was desiring to still take an immediate step forward while still staying below the cap. Toronto, if it were to entertain trading DeRozan, wouldn't be locked into this type of thinking. If a team at or near the top of the draft is wanting more immediate success, would Toronto be willing to take a temporary step backward in order to hopefully take a future step forward?

    Ujiri has one determining factor in mind, will/could this eventually bring Toronto closer to being a championship caliber team. That doesn't necessarily mean next year, particularly since the team is set up with large cap space in the near future...and even more if DeMar's contract is taken off the books.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    If somebody said to dump DeRozan for a 2nd round pick?

    Brainstorming trade ideas with an expected return that would widely be considered fair market value for an all-star - regardless of the motivation behind the brainstorming - is anything but hate.
    Let's be clear....I didn't call out anyone for being a hater in this thread. I simply said i understood why this thread would rub some people the wrong way considering who started it. However, as far as i'm concerned, the past is the past. You, like Matt52, have come to the realization that Demar has a lot of value and not just an "innefficient chucker who does nothing other than score." I don't consider this discussion hate at all....simply saying i can see why others may say....here we go again.

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    I don't agree with this at all.

    Jrue Holiday was putting up hollow numbers on a garbage team. He's at best the 10th best point guard in the NBA (thats kinda pushing it too) but Derozan is probably a top 5 shooting guard today, that plays for a winning team. He's consistently improving and has not even entered his prime yet.

    Derozan is a keeper no question.
    His game is less about atheleticism and slashing now and more skill than compared to when he first entered the league.
    He has good height for his position, is a willing passer and a good locker room guy.
    You analytical guys need to start using the eye test more.

    Derozan's has shown a decent post game this season (how many 2 guards have that? Kobe? Jordan?)
    And honestly, he's looking more like Kobe everyday.

    If we get this guy a legitimate coach and not the offensively inept Dwane Casey, and one more piece then we have a chance for a title run.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Let's be clear....I didn't call out anyone for being a hater in this thread. I simply said i understood why this thread would rub some people the wrong way considering who started it. However, as far as i'm concerned, the past is the past. You, like Matt52, have come to the realization that Demar has a lot of value and not just an "innefficient chucker who does nothing other than score." I don't consider this discussion hate at all....simply saying i can see why others may say....here we go again.
    I was replying to the question you posed, about a type of situation that could be considered 'hate'.

    As for DeRozan, I haven't come to any realizations, as my opinion on DeRozan has never changed. I still view his scoring as being largely inefficient and his defense to be terrible. I give him full credit for improving the peripheral aspects of his game - rebounding and assists - as I always felt he could. Even when I was called a 'hater' in the past, I never once questioned his trade value, as I've always felt he was held in high regard around the league - he's young, talented, still has potential, is fairly paid (glad he earned it so quickly, beyond any doubt), hardworking, is a great teammate, and has good character.

    With his all-star appearance and the emergence of Ross, I really do think that there's never been a better time to explore the possibility of selling high. I also wouldn't be the least bit upset if he stays with Toronto. The fact is, for all the things that make him a good player and highly popular, along with his salary/contract status, he is the team's most marketable asset; if that isn't a compliment, I don't know what is?!

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I was replying to the question you posed, about a type of situation that could be considered 'hate'.

    As for DeRozan, I haven't come to any realizations, as my opinion on DeRozan has never changed. I still view his scoring as being largely inefficient and his defense to be terrible. I give him full credit for improving the peripheral aspects of his game - rebounding and assists - as I always felt he could. Even when I was called a 'hater' in the past, I never once questioned his trade value, as I've always felt he was held in high regard around the league - he's young, talented, still has potential, is fairly paid (glad he earned it so quickly, beyond any doubt), hardworking, is a great teammate, and has good character.

    With his all-star appearance and the emergence of Ross, I really do think that there's never been a better time to explore the possibility of selling high. I also wouldn't be the least bit upset if he stays with Toronto. The fact is, for all the things that make him a good player and highly popular, along with his salary/contract status, he is the team's most marketable asset; if that isn't a compliment, I don't know what is?!
    Something else to consider:

    With a healthy Lopez, Horford, Rondo, and Rose do you think DeRozan makes the ASG? I don't and it is another reason that if you can get a Holiday-like return you need to consider trading DeRozan. Horford may or may not bump Millsap and Lopez might bump Joe Johnson but you still have Rondo and Rose who are also guards.

    Of course given these circumstances, DeRozan was 100% worthy of making the ASG. I know this should go without saying but.... y'know.
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